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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts


Registered: 07/28/10
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Re: Always being right [Re: demiu5]
#23943432 - 12/20/16 01:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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demiu5 said:
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CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Well first U'd have to establish whats right and wrong. I mean right and wrong seems to be subjective. Whats normally right for someone mite be totally wrong to someone else. I mean if you think your always right I willing to bet your not. I mean thinking everything youve ever done or even most of seems egotistical and vain. Its not always black and white. Doing a rightious or jus thing in one place doesnt always mean you didnt wrong something else at the same time. Also in your example were u always right or did u grow from a mistake of gettign in trouble with excessive drug use?
my approach in one of the posts of that thread mentioned was more from a historical/fact-based and scientific/mathematic view of right and wrong. not morally or emotionally
well thats the thing if your gonna go off whats socially accepted as right or wrong you have to ask is that whats aactually right for yourself or everyone? Alot of people slip thru those cracks and it becomes unbalanced imo. I think it has to be some kinda combo of what social norms dictates as moral and what your own personal emotion viewsas right. where exactly you draw the line between the two isnt the same for everyone either. I mean one guy thought he was always right cuz he doesnt have free will. I mean that guy could be a murderer or something. I mean we pschologically fuck people up so bad sometimes with all the right and wrong finger pointing n stuff. I think u cant look at it that cold and calculated. Its almost never black n white.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
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Senor_Doobie said: Morality isn't completely subjective. Despite the wide range of experience spread among the human domain, similar moral judgments are made across cultures. They evolve over time under different frameworks such as religion, which is really the study and examination of our morality.
When we discover a moral truth, it resonates and becomes mythical and archetypal. And so it is absorbed by the culture while at the same time being refined and evolving through time.
I think the few objectively amoral things aren't ever discussed, for good reason. Anyone with an oz of objectivity would say genocide is bad. But some people have a different definition of what a genocide is. I've heard people claim that gang warfare in this country is purposely ignored because the US govt is attempting a hands-off genocide of black and hispanic people.
I personally think thats a crazy conclusion, but if you think its your moral obligation to help people no matter what, its not a far leap
Basically what I'm saying is, even claiming there are objective moral truths is a waste of time because of how subjective interpretations are
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts


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I mean wow ur right im sure no one in history would ever think mass slaughter of their enemy is right...oh wait that as been basically like all of human history omggg.
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion


Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Quote:
bloodsheen said:
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Senor_Doobie said: Morality isn't completely subjective. Despite the wide range of experience spread among the human domain, similar moral judgments are made across cultures. They evolve over time under different frameworks such as religion, which is really the study and examination of our morality.
When we discover a moral truth, it resonates and becomes mythical and archetypal. And so it is absorbed by the culture while at the same time being refined and evolving through time.
I think the few objectively amoral things aren't ever discussed, for good reason. Anyone with an oz of objectivity would say genocide is bad. But some people have a different definition of what a genocide is. I've heard people claim that gang warfare in this country is purposely ignored because the US govt is attempting a hands-off genocide of black and hispanic people.
I personally think thats a crazy conclusion, but if you think its your moral obligation to help people no matter what, its not a far leap
Basically what I'm saying is, even claiming there are objective moral truths is a waste of time because of how subjective interpretations are
If you are using your rationale to make decisions, you're probably lying to yourself.
Neuro-scientists have discovered that the decision-making part of your brain is active prior to the part associated with the ego. The decision is made before you are conscious of the decision.
Our decisions are motivated by our emotions. Our emotions become less predictable, and more inflammatory when we base our beliefs on untruthful ideas. The only way to understand is to think about the negative emotions you feel and trace them to their source. If you do, I promise you will find a lie at the root of every one.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
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Hm, so for you personally, do you consider yourself a saint within your own moral compass? I don't ask that sarcastically, I'm just asking. It seems as though you're suggesting that the source of a-morality is negative emotion, that if we were to become blissful creatures nothing bad would ever happen ever again. Is seratonin your Blood of the Lamb?
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
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Quote:
Senor_Doobie said:
Neuro-scientists have discovered that the decision-making part of your brain is active prior to the part associated with the ego. The decision is made before you are conscious of the decision.
In a lab full of randoms maybe.
When it comes time for me to make a decision, I take as much time as practical. Either focusing on pranayama and stilling my mind, before considering, which takes maybe 10seconds to reset all the gears. Or sleeping on it and coming back to the idea many times from various perspectives.
The only exceptions are petty issues which require no extra thought, or tasks where you're forced to act immediately.
The majority of people may think on reflex, but your mind is not limited to doing so, you can train it.
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion


Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Quote:
bloodsheen said: Hm, so for you personally, do you consider yourself a saint within your own moral compass? I don't ask that sarcastically, I'm just asking. It seems as though you're suggesting that the source of a-morality is negative emotion, that if we were to become blissful creatures nothing bad would ever happen ever again. Is seratonin your Blood of the Lamb?
No. Bliss isn't possible because we are finite creatures living in a realm of chaos and evil. Our limits cause suffering and suffering is inevitable.
I'm more talking about controlling your own behavior. If you have a belief that is based on a lie, you wouldn't be consciously aware of it, but you would be unconsciously aware of it, and that would cause bad feelings. Those feelings in turn cause bad behavior. And so on.
I am no saint at all. I have only recently begun to examine my own corruption and I am working on acting more consciously. Once you become aware of your falsehoods, you can start trying to minimalize or extinguish them. But it's a never-ending battle.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion


Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
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Senor_Doobie said:
Neuro-scientists have discovered that the decision-making part of your brain is active prior to the part associated with the ego. The decision is made before you are conscious of the decision.
In a lab full of randoms maybe.
When it comes time for me to make a decision, I take as much time as practical. Either focusing on pranayama and stilling my mind, before considering, which takes maybe 10seconds to reset all the gears. Or sleeping on it and coming back to the idea many times from various perspectives.
The only exceptions are petty issues which require no extra thought, or tasks where you're forced to act immediately.
The majority of people may think on reflex, but your mind is not limited to doing so, you can train it.
Your mind is limited in that way. The petty decisions count toward or against your consciousness. Every decision does.
In these larger decisions you talk about, you are reasoning them, sure. But also what you are doing is deciding not to decide right away, because of feelings.
It is about training your mind in a way. Trying to be as conscientious as possible is a huge undertaking. It causes you to examine everything you believe and everything you do.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
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People who thing they're always right and act like their always right are dumb as fuck
Koods Pris
You gotta stop with this attitude
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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So you're saying introspection is the key to morality? Do you really not think that extremist muslims never try to be introspective? I mean, who could be more incorrect and a-moral than an Islamic terrorist? Im sure thousands of them are brilliant and are able to look at things from many different angles. But one simple thing being taken for granted (the Koran being non-fiction) and their entire mental process is totally ruined.
I think its wise but arrogant to believe you can obtain moral cleanliness through that sort of thinking. We all have so many biases that make that kind of objectivity impossible. The attempt is good, but believing its attainable in any way is foolhardy and will eventually (ironically) lead to you making horrible decisions based on assumptions
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion


Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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bloodsheen said: So you're saying introspection is the key to morality? Do you really not think that extremist muslims never try to be introspective? I mean, who could be more incorrect and a-moral than an Islamic terrorist? Im sure thousands of them are brilliant and are able to look at things from many different angles. But one simple thing being taken for granted (the Koran being non-fiction) and their entire mental process is totally ruined.
I think its wise but arrogant to believe you can obtain moral cleanliness through that sort of thinking. We all have so many biases that make that kind of objectivity impossible. The attempt is good, but believing its attainable in any way is foolhardy and will eventually (ironically) lead to you making horrible decisions based on assumptions
I doubt very much that extremists are introspective in the way that I am describing. Because if they were, they would not be extremists.
It's a very elusive thing that I am trying to talk out. Thanks for humoring me. I admit I haven't really figured it out all that well yet. But I feel like I'm onto something. These aren't really my ideas and I am trying to understand better.
Take a look at this if you want to know more about what I'm trying to get at:
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Boomer The Great

Registered: 10/30/14
Posts: 5,504
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Repertoire89 said:
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bloodsheen said:
For instance, lets say you get addicted to heroin, your addiction gets way out of hand, then you go to rehab. While in rehab you meet a girl, and for once that kind of relationship works out. You get married, have 2 1/2 kids, the whole shabang. So you say to yourself "Wow, I'm so glad I got addicted to drugs, I learned a lot of strength from the experience and met my life partner."
Which is just a justification so you never made a mistake. No matter how far in the future you are, you can look back and even after like ten fucking years say "Yup, it was all worth it."
Yeah I agree and have found myself doing this
I don't interpret that as "justification so you never made a mistake". I look at that as realizing you made a mistake, then realizing how this mistake has made you grow as person, good or bad.
Find a better example.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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it's impossible assert yourself and function rationally on the opposite assumption of 'being right'.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
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Quote:
Boomer The Great said:
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Repertoire89 said:
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bloodsheen said:
For instance, lets say you get addicted to heroin, your addiction gets way out of hand, then you go to rehab. While in rehab you meet a girl, and for once that kind of relationship works out. You get married, have 2 1/2 kids, the whole shabang. So you say to yourself "Wow, I'm so glad I got addicted to drugs, I learned a lot of strength from the experience and met my life partner."
Which is just a justification so you never made a mistake. No matter how far in the future you are, you can look back and even after like ten fucking years say "Yup, it was all worth it."
Yeah I agree and have found myself doing this
I don't interpret that as "justification so you never made a mistake". I look at that as realizing you made a mistake, then realizing how this mistake has made you grow as person, good or bad.
Find a better example.
No, thats a great example. When you're an addict you do some awful things. You steal, you lie, you do crazy stuff to people to get your fix. Manipulating people so you can get high is an exceptionally shitty thing to do. So if after its all over the biggest thing you got out of your experience was "Getting clean was hard and I'm a better person for it," you're either prideful or selfish. Obviously learning from your mistakes is a good thing, but saying they are ok because its like some fucking path you needed to travel down or some bullshit is merely justification.
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
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Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
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Quote:
bloodsheen said: Its of course ubiquitous on the internet, but in studying people who seem to have to always be right I've gleaned a few things
I think part of the problem is how people make decisions. If you start to doubt a single one of your decisions, how can you be confident in ANY of your deicions? If you can study something, come to a rationed conclusion, then be wrong, how the fuck can you trust anything about yourself at all?!
Which I think actually boils down to a deep-seated belief in humanity that there is always a "right" and "wrong." And I don't even mean morality.
For instance, lets say you get addicted to heroin, your addiction gets way out of hand, then you go to rehab. While in rehab you meet a girl, and for once that kind of relationship works out. You get married, have 2 1/2 kids, the whole shabang. So you say to yourself "Wow, I'm so glad I got addicted to drugs, I learned a lot of strength from the experience and met my life partner."
Which is just a justification so you never made a mistake. No matter how far in the future you are, you can look back and even after like ten fucking years say "Yup, it was all worth it."
Or maybe I'm just a pessimistic asshole and have to find something shitty about everything
I don't think there are any solutions to this, its part of human nature. But still, discuss intelligently
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Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
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Boomer The Great

Registered: 10/30/14
Posts: 5,504
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Quote:
bloodsheen said:
Quote:
Boomer The Great said:
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Repertoire89 said:
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bloodsheen said:
For instance, lets say you get addicted to heroin, your addiction gets way out of hand, then you go to rehab. While in rehab you meet a girl, and for once that kind of relationship works out. You get married, have 2 1/2 kids, the whole shabang. So you say to yourself "Wow, I'm so glad I got addicted to drugs, I learned a lot of strength from the experience and met my life partner."
Which is just a justification so you never made a mistake. No matter how far in the future you are, you can look back and even after like ten fucking years say "Yup, it was all worth it."
Yeah I agree and have found myself doing this
I don't interpret that as "justification so you never made a mistake". I look at that as realizing you made a mistake, then realizing how this mistake has made you grow as person, good or bad.
Find a better example.
No, thats a great example. When you're an addict you do some awful things. You steal, you lie, you do crazy stuff to people to get your fix. Manipulating people so you can get high is an exceptionally shitty thing to do. So if after its all over the biggest thing you got out of your experience was "Getting clean was hard and I'm a better person for it," you're either prideful or selfish. Obviously learning from your mistakes is a good thing, but saying they are ok because its like some fucking path you needed to travel down or some bullshit is merely justification.
Ok yeah I agree. But the most important point is "thinking your mistake was ok" I didn't really get all that from your first post.
You are right I am wrong.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 7,659
Last seen: 4 years, 14 days
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Damn Doobie, did you have to pick such a dry lecture?
I think its a mistake to attempt to ferret out some absolute truth, men have been trying since we could talk and nobody has come up with a satsifactory conclusion. I think its better to just create your morality as you go. More like this

Than this

Its fun when its personal to you, like 100% you. Not to sound like a hipster, but its cool to be unique in this case
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: it's impossible assert yourself and function rationally on the opposite assumption of 'being right'.
the answer is literal.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
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Quote:
Senor_Doobie said: If you are using your rationale to make decisions, you're probably lying to yourself.
Neuro-scientists have discovered that the decision-making part of your brain is active prior to the part associated with the ego. The decision is made before you are conscious of the decision.
Our decisions are motivated by our emotions. Our emotions become less predictable, and more inflammatory when we base our beliefs on untruthful ideas. The only way to understand is to think about the negative emotions you feel and trace them to their source. If you do, I promise you will find a lie at the root of every one.
nicely stated.
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I have only recently begun to examine my own corruption and I am working on acting more consciously. Once you become aware of your falsehoods, you can start trying to minimalize or extinguish them. But it's a never-ending battle.
again. nicely stated. Heraclitus was right. everything is at war. it's a war of the senses and of emotion, that we fail to realize...or did we realize to soon?
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion


Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Quote:
bloodsheen said: Damn Doobie, did you have to pick such a dry lecture?
I think its a mistake to attempt to ferret out some absolute truth, men have been trying since we could talk and nobody has come up with a satsifactory conclusion. I think its better to just create your morality as you go.
Ok, so you didn't watch it. That's fine. It is dry. If you let him get going though, I promise you'll be enthralled. Peterson makes a ton of sense to me. Of course, he could be entirely insane, but I don't think so.
Nietzsche said that in this new godless world, we must create meaning.
Jung said, we must discover it.
It's all in the video but I, like Peterson prefer Jung's take, if for no other reason than, it's more humble.
But Peterson there says that if you take Nietzsche's idea to its logical conclusion, if everything has the same potential for meaning, then everything is essentially equal, and nothing has no more value than anything else, which leads to nihilism.
To say that those looking for universal truth have failed is not really fair. Our values are good values. You could argue that they are the best values and have given rise to the healthiest society in history. And our values continue to evolve. So I think it's important to keep arguing this all out and look for meaning instead of trying to just make it up. Because I've tried that and found it fruitless.
Religion has a lot to teach on morality, which makes sense since most of the time they are the moral authority. You really should watch the video. It's fascinating.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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