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OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 11 hours
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: sudly]
    #23959157 - 12/26/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)


Alas, how could one learn to override their instinctive fight or flight response?




Our primal response to situations can be adjusted by our mind; Mind over matter (situation).




True but do you really think that ability has been inherent in humans throughout our entire evolutionary history, or did we somehow learn to use our relatively large neocortex to achieve this state of 'mind over matter'?




I think the training of animals is enough to disprove the latter and prove the former.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959163 - 12/26/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

as mind and experience is cut away from material reality




Experience consists of physical sensations and the mind is the memory of them so IMO there is no cut away from material reality from a perspective of Dualism of body and mind.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: sudly]
    #23959167 - 12/26/16 08:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think the training of animals is enough to disprove the latter and prove the former.




Service animals can be taught to express mind over matter in certain situations when taught intelligent disobedience.

Quote:

Intelligent disobedience occurs where a service animal trained to help a disabled person goes directly against the owner's instructions in an effort to make a better decision. This behavior is a part of the dog's training and is central to a service animal's success on the job.




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959182 - 12/26/16 08:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Philosophically you do not solve a problem; or have a theory about what death "is". So these temporal structures, existentiale, are not "necessary" in the idealized sense, as true to nature or being

This is a very old form of death denial which is coming more and more into fashion. It involves necessarily mystifying the process of death and decay. Any child above the age of about 7 which is not mentally stunted can tell you what death is. The animal stops moving, decays, ceases to be what it once was. Death is like sex, you know it when you see it.

I know you've written a lot and so me picking these bits out to criticise might seem kinda dickish, but I'm not trying to be a dick to you. Just thought I'd put that out there.

We can all tend to appreciate when something is at stake, and we look closer, or something itself seems to shine out. Think about frogs and bugs, and little lives we ourselves live, or look closer and see something there and maybe you have a moral of the story, a psychological fable, a good story, if you give animals voices. But it seems to me like we are just passing through, and there are no stories or anecdotes, or approximately common experiences like this that really or necessarily hold, or put to others; the "existentiale" are only true to being or experience. No one "has" to understand a concrete loss, of finite being, (as being towards death is not a philosophical or logically determinant necessity anyone has laid out in its consequence) but it seems to me we can in affirmative ways, and in good measure, in philosophy and anecdote. There is something common about our existences and something different or other at the same time.

I think you are right in the sense that there is something uncommunicatable about death. We cannot imagine ourselves to be dead, because we are still imagining a blackness or emptiness which is not necessarily non-being. But death is real. We can know it rationally which is why we fear rationality. This unimaginability of death is also why I think we become lost in idealistic philosophical notions about the primacy of the mental over the physical, or the primacy of "being". If all there is, is the mental or "being" then death becomes unreal, which is a relief, but like religion is a little too convenient for my liking.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: sudly]
    #23959190 - 12/26/16 08:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

as mind and experience is cut away from material reality




Experience consists of physical sensations and the mind is the memory of them so IMO there is no cut away from material reality from a perspective of Dualism of body and mind.




Sure, but doubt creeps in. Is what I am experiencing really reality or just an illusion? So in some sense you are separated from material reality because you can never know if what you are experiencing is material reality. You can only know that you are experiencing. I think therefor I am. That is the point of cartesian dualism.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959225 - 12/26/16 08:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

What your mind is experiencing is chemical and electrical interactions.
Physical sensations are material reality and I think to deny that is when one truly cuts away from material reality by believing in that which is immaterial.

If you want to go down that path you may as well call radio waves, electromagnetism and radiation immaterial too. 

I would say, "I think therefore I am but what am I?"

And I would answer that with the experience of sensations and mental perceptions of them.

The PNS is the body and the CNS is the mind :imo:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: sudly]
    #23959231 - 12/26/16 08:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with you, but decarte's argument cannot be denied which is why it is so insidious. None of the things you've said necessarily refutes Cartesian dualism which is why philosophers still argue over it.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959384 - 12/26/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think any ontological argument for a god can be denied with basic rational seeing as sentience cannot exist without matter.

All I'm talking about is Dualism of body and mind which is pretty self explanatory with a basic understanding of how the human nervous system functions and is divided into different sections with different roles.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959496 - 12/26/16 10:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Philosophically you do not solve a problem; or have a theory about what death "is". So these temporal structures, existentiale, are not "necessary" in the idealized sense, as true to nature or being

This is a very old form of death denial which is coming more and more into fashion. It involves necessarily mystifying the process of death and decay. Any child above the age of about 7 which is not mentally stunted can tell you what death is. The animal stops moving, decays, ceases to be what it once was. Death is like sex, you know it when you see it.

I know you've written a lot and so me picking these bits out to criticise might seem kinda dickish, but I'm not trying to be a dick to you. Just thought I'd put that out there.

We can all tend to appreciate when something is at stake, and we look closer, or something itself seems to shine out. Think about frogs and bugs, and little lives we ourselves live, or look closer and see something there and maybe you have a moral of the story, a psychological fable, a good story, if you give animals voices. But it seems to me like we are just passing through, and there are no stories or anecdotes, or approximately common experiences like this that really or necessarily hold, or put to others; the "existentiale" are only true to being or experience. No one "has" to understand a concrete loss, of finite being, (as being towards death is not a philosophical or logically determinant necessity anyone has laid out in its consequence) but it seems to me we can in affirmative ways, and in good measure, in philosophy and anecdote. There is something common about our existences and something different or other at the same time.

I think you are right in the sense that there is something uncommunicatable about death. We cannot imagine ourselves to be dead, because we are still imagining a blackness or emptiness which is not necessarily non-being. But death is real. We can know it rationally which is why we fear rationality. This unimaginability of death is also why I think we become lost in idealistic philosophical notions about the primacy of the mental over the physical, or the primacy of "being". If all there is, is the mental or "being" then death becomes unreal, which is a relief, but like religion is a little too convenient for my liking.




You put it out there, I guess. Is that why your handle is bling bling?


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: Kurt]
    #23959702 - 12/27/16 02:36 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Can't remember exactly why I chose the name blingbling :shrug:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: sudly]
    #23959704 - 12/27/16 02:42 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think any ontological argument for a god can be denied with basic rational seeing as sentience cannot exist without matter.

I don't think that the axiom which states that sentience cannot exist without matter necessarily implies that a God cannot exist. However, there are plenty of other good reasons.

All I'm talking about is Dualism of body and mind which is pretty self explanatory with a basic understanding of how the human nervous system functions and is divided into different sections with different roles.

Just playing devils advocate here, but your understanding of the human nervous system could simply be an illusion implanted in your consciousness by an evil imp as Decarte once speculated. There really is no getting around Descartes' arguments because all knowledge arises as formations of consciousness.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959715 - 12/27/16 02:54 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

It implies sentience cannot exist without matter and you can make your assertions from there.

Quote:

Just playing devils advocate here, but your understanding of the human nervous system could simply be an illusion implanted in your consciousness by an evil imp as Decarte once speculated. There really is no getting around Descartes' arguments because all knowledge arises as formations of consciousness.




This is where I lose some respect for you, because the anatomy of the human nervous system is not an illusion.

All I have to say is that I think sentience arises from consciousness and not the other way around.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: sudly]
    #23959731 - 12/27/16 03:08 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

This is where I lose some respect for you, because the anatomy of the human nervous system is not an illusion.

All I have to say is that I think sentience arises from consciousness and not the other way around.




Then what does consciousness arise from? Because if it is matter then we then we can keep going around in circles arguing for and against idealism and materialism as has been done for hundreds of years. And if consciousness is the fundamental aspect of reality then your knowledge of the central nervous system is pretty much useless philosophically.

Quote:

sudly said:

It implies sentience cannot exist without matter and you can make your assertions from there.




What if God is made of matter?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959750 - 12/27/16 03:30 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think consciousness is inherent to all life on Earth in the form of an awareness of external elements.

As for a sense of morality, a conscience and overall sentience I think that arises from the chemical and electrical interactions that take place within our Central Nervous Systems(Brain and Spinal cord).

In essence I think sentience is influenced by electromagnetism.

What if Jews are made of orange juice?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: sudly]
    #23959761 - 12/27/16 03:39 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Yes and you've come too all this knowledge through consciousness which may or may not be accurately tracking reality. This is why this argument is so slippery, it doesn't matter how much you know about biology, chemistry, physics etc. You still come to knowledge through consciousness and so you cannot ever definitively say from where consciousness arises, the only thing you can definitively say is that you are conscious.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959773 - 12/27/16 04:17 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think one comes to knowledge through consciousness alone, but from a sense of morality, a conscience and sentience.

Again, most people don't seem to see any difference between consciousness and sentience.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: blingbling]
    #23959960 - 12/27/16 08:29 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Blig bling, posturing about death anxiety and then suggesting we have a metaphysical anxiety attack about your conception of the existence of god is faux pas.

Do not argue devils advocate for bad arguments from now on. How about that as a strategy? It might be good to come to actual grounds of argument, rather than just projecting personalities out of the blue.


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: Kurt]
    #23960021 - 12/27/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Just to touch on an earlier point, perhaps best not to exaggerate the ability to change. Acceptance could be a more valuable strategy. Idealizing mind over matter will more likely end in Cartesian anxiety. Acceptance seems more likely to result in moderation, which in and of itself might negate the more troublesome aspects of dualistic perception.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 11 hours
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: Rahz]
    #23960037 - 12/27/16 09:23 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, you mean because of the guilt associated with ontological certainty?


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Cartesianism and Violence [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #23960071 - 12/27/16 09:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Any sensation the mind finds itself in contradiction with.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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