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NotBrandon

Registered: 10/26/16
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4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms
#23940463 - 12/19/16 02:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok. So what differences between the two of these? I hear the trips are the same. Ive never done either, but im ready to take the next step up in psychedelics and I dont want to miss out on anything the shrooms have if I do 4-ace-o-dmt instead. Doing this for spiritual reasons not just to "see trippy stuff" Any help is appreciated.
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WeAreMushroom
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: NotBrandon]
#23940507 - 12/19/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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The chemical name for the acetylized psilocin, (O-acetylpsilocin, or 4-acetoxy-DMT,) is 4-aco-DMT, not 4-ace-o-DMT.
I assume this is the research chemical you're referring to since "4-aco-DMT" is sometimes pronounced "four-ay-see-oh DMT."
I've had around 20 experiences with 4-aco-DMT, however I find it to be not quite equivalent to real mushrooms.
I feel that to me, the trip feels sort of hollow and less organic than with real mushrooms. Every strain of mushrooms has a different sort of flavor to it, but the flavor 4-aco-DMT presents me with is one of blankness in comparison to the lively warmth of a Penis Envy mushroom, for example, or the bizarre melting sensations I find consistent with Mazatapecs strain cubensis.
The weirdest thing about the stuff is that it doesn't seem to matter how much or how little of it I take, the trip is completely random. I can take 30mg and have a mild experience, or I can take 20mg and end up tripping so I hard I forget the English language for a time. 
It's limited history of use in humans deters me from taking more of it, because mushrooms are readily available from the ground outside, and I know our ancestors have been eating those for millennia with no ill effects.
A close friend of mine had such an uncomfortable experience with 4-aco-DMT at a normal dosage that he went to a doctor afterwards complaining of nervousness and persisting visuals and was prescribed a benzodiazepine for his newfound anxiety.
I personally dislike the stuff but I guess there's some people here who think it's cool.
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NotBrandon

Registered: 10/26/16
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Cant grow shrooms, how are truffles?
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mctaveesh
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: NotBrandon] 1
#23940688 - 12/19/16 03:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey man 4-Aco-DMT is a pretty well-known and liked Psychedelic by a lot of people.
I've had some of my most spiritually fulfilling trips with that chemical.
A lot of people will say it's similar to shrooms, but not as good. Some people say it's exactly the same. Some people prefer it over shrooms.
As for me personally, I would pick shrooms over 4-Aco-DMT purely because it is a natural drug and I generally prefer doing natural drugs.
But to be honest, it's safe and does basically what shrooms does for me so I continue to use it. If there's a difference between it and Shrooms, it's small IMO.
--------------------
LogicaL Chaos said: "humans are like cubes, lots of strains but cubes a cube. Not much difference really."
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: NotBrandon]
#23940783 - 12/19/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NotBrandon said: I dont want to miss out on anything the shrooms have if I do 4-ace-o-dmt instead
Then just play it safe and take shrooms instead. Even if I had the chance to do pure psilocybin or psilocin I'd still take mushrooms. I believe the additional alkaloids in the mushroom add to the experience. I mean I don't just believe it, they do but it's about whether you will notice it or not.
Many people do experience differences between them but aren't consciously aware of them while they're happening so for this reason I wouldn't rely on other peoples' analysis I would just take mushrooms.
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NotBrandon

Registered: 10/26/16
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Cant get any shrooms.. Might have a truffle from an old jar but I dont know..
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Deemstar
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: NotBrandon]
#23940862 - 12/19/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I found 4-aco-dmt to be far weirder than mushrooms, there is noticeable difference shrooms are definitely more mystical and less confusing..
I saw some shit on 4-aco that defies explanation.. It was like a world where everything was opposite, like everything was made out of ether or someshit..
I mean shrooms can defy explanation and weird as well. but I'll never forget the ride the 4-aco-aliens took me on..
same for 4-ho-mipt, inexplicably weird especially when used in group setting, i've had multiple, simultaneous hallucinations where different people would see the same thing...
As fond as i was of tryptamines I no longer use them because I consider them to be alchemy, they altered sacraments,,
I'm wholeheartedly convinced that synthetic Psychedelics increase the probability of demonic entities encounters / attacks,, and i can't stand things of that nature.. gives me the heeby jeebies
Edited by Deemstar (12/19/16 05:13 PM)
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WeAreMushroom
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: Deemstar]
#23940936 - 12/19/16 05:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deemstar said: I found 4-aco-dmt to be far weirder than mushrooms, there is noticeable difference shrooms are definitely more mystical and less confusing..
I saw some shit on 4-aco that defies explanation.. It was like a world where everything was opposite, like everything was made out of ether or someshit..
I mean shrooms can defy explanation and weird as well. but I'll never forget the ride the 4-aco-aliens took me on..
same for 4-ho-mipt, inexplicably weird especially when used in group setting, i've had multiple, simultaneous hallucinations where different people would see the same thing...
As fond as i was of tryptamines I no longer use them because I consider them to be alchemy, they altered sacraments,,
I'm wholeheartedly convinced that synthetic Psychedelics increase the probability of demonic entities encounters / attacks,, and i can't stand things of that nature.. gives me the heeby jeebies
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krypto2000
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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said:
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NotBrandon said: I dont want to miss out on anything the shrooms have if I do 4-ace-o-dmt instead
Then just play it safe and take shrooms instead. Even if I had the chance to do pure psilocybin or psilocin I'd still take mushrooms. I believe the additional alkaloids in the mushroom add to the experience. I mean I don't just believe it, they do but it's about whether you will notice it or not.
Many people do experience differences between them but aren't consciously aware of them while they're happening so for this reason I wouldn't rely on other peoples' analysis I would just take mushrooms.
What do you feel the alkaloids add? Have you taken 4-aco to compare, and if not what are you basing your belief on? I have not taken 4-aco, but reports that I've read of psilocin, 4-aco, and beocystin lead me believe they're indistinguishable. Trips are also so subjective that it would really be hard to truly measure and conclude one way or another.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23941047 - 12/19/16 06:02 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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4 Aco DMT is like Oral DMT, similar to mushrooms but deeper, deeply visionary experiences.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: Deemstar]
#23941283 - 12/19/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deemstar said: I found 4-aco-dmt to be far weirder than mushrooms, there is noticeable difference shrooms are definitely more mystical and less confusing..
That's strange because I know several people who have taken both substances and said one of the only noticeable differences was that mushrooms were more confusing... They also said mushrooms left them feeling better off mentally afterwards. Also how can you say tryptamines are altered when most tryptamines are natural?
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krypto2000 said:What do you feel the alkaloids add? Have you taken 4-aco to compare, and if not what are you basing your belief on? I have not taken 4-aco, but reports that I've read of psilocin, 4-aco, and beocystin lead me believe they're indistinguishable. Trips are also so subjective that it would really be hard to truly measure and conclude one way or another.
I know they make a difference because they're psychoactive alkaloids that have a synergistic effect with psilocybin... Even pure psilocybin is not going to have the exact same effects as mushrooms because pure psilocybin would just be one molecule.
Also just because people don't consciously notice the differences doesn't mean there isn't differences.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: NotBrandon]
#23941314 - 12/19/16 07:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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4-aco-dmt is similar to mushrooms but different. The only way to find out more than that is to try it.
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krypto2000
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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said:
I know they make a difference because they're psychoactive alkaloids that have a synergistic effect with psilocybin...
That's kind of a circular argument though isn't it? You're basically saying you know they make a difference because they make a difference. I'm asking for why you think they make a difference, you're not pointing out any differences, just rephrasing that they must exist.
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Even pure psilocybin is not going to have the exact same effects as mushrooms because pure psilocybin would just be one molecule.
Just because the molecules are different doesn't mean the effects are, and if they are it doesn't mean those differences are significant. I personally doubt there's much a difference between psilocin, psilocybin, 4-aco-dmt, or beocystin for instance. I don't believe there is due to their similar structure, pharmacology, and reports I've read.
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Also just because people don't consciously notice the differences doesn't mean there isn't differences.
If people don't notice a difference then does that mean there really is one though? We're talking an experience that is entirely subjective, if you remove the subjectivity what's left?
I'm not convinced that there are not differences amongst these chemicals, but so far I haven't found reason enough to believe there is. Even in cases where users report differences subjectively you have to consider just how often users report differences between trips while taking the exact same drug every time. Even if you can identify differences you'd still have to conclude they are due to the chemical opposed to the method of delivery. I've taken extracted psilocin and it's a lot more smooth and pleasant than mushrooms, but I don't think the effects are any different. I think it's because it's absorbed a lot more evenly, quickly, and without the digestive load of the mushroom matter, it also hits a lot quicker and smoother because there is no psilocybin that must be metabolized first. The actual effects between the two experiences, sans those caused by digesting mushroom material, are imo identical however.
Edited by krypto2000 (12/19/16 07:22 PM)
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23941525 - 12/19/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said:
If people don't notice a difference then does that mean there really is one though?
YES
That is my point. These drugs do many things to people without them even noticing. Most people are not analytical.
Also much of what you said didn't make much sense.
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You're basically saying you know they make a difference because they make a difference. I'm asking for why you think they make a difference, you're not pointing out any differences, just rephrasing that they must exist.
No that's not what I said. They don't make a difference because they make a difference they make a difference because they exist.
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Just because the molecules are different doesn't mean the effects are, and if they are it doesn't mean those differences are significant. I personally doubt there's much a difference between psilocin, psilocybin, 4-aco-dmt, or beocystin for instance. I don't believe there is due to their similar structure, pharmacology, and reports I've read.
How are the molecules different? What? I never said they're different..
4-Aco-DMT and Psilocybin are both just one drug. A mushroom contains multiple drugs and is a collection. That'd be like saying pure THC has the same effects as cannabis. It don't.
Edited by AuroraBorealis88 (12/19/16 07:57 PM)
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krypto2000
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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said:
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krypto2000 said:
If people don't notice a difference then does that mean there really is one though?
YES
That is my point. These drugs do many things to people without them even noticing. Most people are not analytical.
If the person doesn't notice then where would the difference occur? I don't understand. Are you saying it makes qualitative differences that others observe in that person? If so how did you conclude that? I'm trying to understand your logic or reasoning for believing this, that these different chemicals deliver a different experience.
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Also much of what you said didn't make much sense.
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You're basically saying you know they make a difference because they make a difference. I'm asking for why you think they make a difference, you're not pointing out any differences, just rephrasing that they must exist.
No that's not what I said. They don't make a difference because they make a difference they make a difference because they exist.
That seems like a classic example of circular logic to me. Look at the definition from wikipedia:
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Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade.
You are saying, "They make a difference because they [the differences] exist." Or maybe it's "They make a difference because they [the chemicals] exist." I'm not sure, it's worded ambiguously, but both would qualify as circular logic.
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Just because the molecules are different doesn't mean the effects are, and if they are it doesn't mean those differences are significant. I personally doubt there's much a difference between psilocin, psilocybin, 4-aco-dmt, or beocystin for instance. I don't believe there is due to their similar structure, pharmacology, and reports I've read.
How are the molecules different? What? I never said they're different..
What do you mean? You didn't say it directly, but if the molecules were not different we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your position is that the 4 compounds in question feel different, mine is they do not. If there was only one compound in question we would both agree it feels the same as itself.
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4-ACO-DMT and Psilocybin are both just one drug. A mushroom contains multiple drugs and is a collection. That'd be like saying pure THC has the same effects as cannabis. It don't.
I have debated before that besides THC and CBD I do not believe there is enough evidence to believe the other cannabinoids contribute anything appreciable to the high. No need to get into that though. The cannabinoids have been widely researched in comparison to mushrooms, just because the chemicals are different doesn't mean they have much difference in effects.
Besides the delayed onset do you think psilocybin is any different than psilocin since they would even be psilocin once in the brain? I don't see why they would. I think 4-aco-dmt and 4-HO-NMT might be the same. 4-ACO is metabolized fairly quickly into psilocin, it is active on its own but I'm not convinced the differences in effects are very significant. 4-HO-NMT I would expect to be a little different, how significant I can't guess, but from the few reports I've read I remember them saying it was indistinguishable.
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WeAreMushroom
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23942915 - 12/20/16 10:07 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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krypto2000 said:
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AuroraBorealis88 said:
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krypto2000 said:
If people don't notice a difference then does that mean there really is one though?
YES
That is my point. These drugs do many things to people without them even noticing. Most people are not analytical.
If the person doesn't notice then where would the difference occur? I don't understand. Are you saying it makes qualitative differences that others observe in that person? If so how did you conclude that? I'm trying to understand your logic or reasoning for believing this, that these different chemicals deliver a different experience.
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Also much of what you said didn't make much sense.
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You're basically saying you know they make a difference because they make a difference. I'm asking for why you think they make a difference, you're not pointing out any differences, just rephrasing that they must exist.
No that's not what I said. They don't make a difference because they make a difference they make a difference because they exist.
That seems like a classic example of circular logic to me. Look at the definition from wikipedia:
Quote:
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade.
You are saying, "They make a difference because they [the differences] exist." Or maybe it's "They make a difference because they [the chemicals] exist." I'm not sure, it's worded ambiguously, but both would qualify as circular logic.
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Just because the molecules are different doesn't mean the effects are, and if they are it doesn't mean those differences are significant. I personally doubt there's much a difference between psilocin, psilocybin, 4-aco-dmt, or beocystin for instance. I don't believe there is due to their similar structure, pharmacology, and reports I've read.
How are the molecules different? What? I never said they're different..
What do you mean? You didn't say it directly, but if the molecules were not different we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your position is that the 4 compounds in question feel different, mine is they do not. If there was only one compound in question we would both agree it feels the same as itself.
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4-ACO-DMT and Psilocybin are both just one drug. A mushroom contains multiple drugs and is a collection. That'd be like saying pure THC has the same effects as cannabis. It don't.
I have debated before that besides THC and CBD I do not believe there is enough evidence to believe the other cannabinoids contribute anything appreciable to the high. No need to get into that though. The cannabinoids have been widely researched in comparison to mushrooms, just because the chemicals are different doesn't mean they have much difference in effects.
Besides the delayed onset do you think psilocybin is any different than psilocin since they would even be psilocin once in the brain? I don't see why they would. I think 4-aco-dmt and 4-HO-NMT might be the same. 4-ACO is metabolized fairly quickly into psilocin, it is active on its own but I'm not convinced the differences in effects are very significant. 4-HO-NMT I would expect to be a little different, how significant I can't guess, but from the few reports I've read I remember them saying it was indistinguishable.
For somebody who hasn't even taken 4-aco-DMT, you've got a hell of an opinion.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23943101 - 12/20/16 11:15 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I personally doubt there's much a difference between psilocin, psilocybin, 4-aco-dmt, or beocystin for instance. I don't believe there is due to their similar structure, pharmacology, and reports I've read.
All of those molecules have an individual effect. Meaning they are all active on their own comparatively to the next. They hold their own individual pharmacology, a small change in a single molecule can make a big difference.
You mentioned you've tried pure Psilocin before but I think you were talking about just the simple lemon tek for mushrooms, which isn't exactly the same as synthetic 4-HO-DMT.
Subjective differences should be obvious based on the pharmacology of each drug.
I've been seeing you suggest information recently based on anything other than individual experience and facts, you can't say something is some way just because you think it is, subjective experiences are great, but not if you haven't had one.
Your suggestions may further confuse people than lead them in the right direction, but I'm glad we're all here to learn.
When working with prodrugs and molecules that differ from our standard psychedelics, we notice just how much a single change can make to the pharmacology. LSD for instance, originally formulated by Hoffmann, he also formulated an LSD prodrug called ALD-52 all it is a simple addition of an acetyl group(organic ester in chemistry) bound to the Nitrogen ring of LSD and this proves to be a serious change in the effects of the drug as well as pharmacology.
You can assume the nature of an Acetoxy group as you can inspect the nature of Heroin and it's active metabolite acetyl 6-MAM
Most likely if you were to ask me, in terms of 4ACO-DMT and ALD52 they turn into a completely unique molecule that is active in the blood brain barrier before and during the drug is fully metabolizing into the parent molecule. This is what causes the unique difference in subjective experience, the message of DMT remains the same.
If you were to further compare 4-Aco to 4-HO tryptamines you could probably find your answer in trying them out yourself, and seeing the subjective difference between 4 acos and 4 hos. MET, DET, DPT, go at it and do the comparisons between Hydroxy and Acetoxy and you could probably pair 2 and 2 together for Psilocins case.
if you want to compare lemon tek (4ho dmt) to 4 aco dmt for sake in my personal experience I would say the aco counter part provides for a faster onset, and quicker absorbability. Lemon tek is always fast, but smooth and never edgy, Aco DMT was so fast it triggered fight or flight response in the come up, as well as intense nausea but the feelings were passed very quickly.
Aco DMT seemed to fade more abruptly than Lemon Tek as well.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (12/20/16 12:05 PM)
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krypto2000
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Quote:
Eclipse3130 said: For somebody who hasn't even taken 4-aco-DMT, you've got a hell of an opinion. 
Are you saying my opinion is any less valid than Aurora's? He hasn't taken anything but mushrooms here from what he's said and he's basing his belief on the fact that the chemicals exist therefore they must be different. I'm basing mine on personal experience, pharmacology, and anecdotal reports. What exactly is your point? Should I concede my opinion on the grounds of... Aurora said so? What!? What are you trying to say here?
I went through and responded to this in each section, some of my questions were answered as you went on so keep that in mind as you read it.
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Eclipse3130 said:
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I personally doubt there's much a difference between psilocin, psilocybin, 4-aco-dmt, or beocystin for instance. I don't believe there is due to their similar structure, pharmacology, and reports I've read.
All of those molecules have an individual effect. Meaning they are all active on their own comparatively to the next. They hold their own individual pharmacology, a small change in a single molecule can make a big difference.
And what exactly are you basing this conclusion on? These are not big changes to begin with and changes in a molecule do not always produce different effects, it's not black or white like that. Are you disputing psilocybin has any different effects from psilocin for instance since both produce their effects as psilocin?
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You mentioned you've tried pure Psilocin before but I think you were talking about just the simple lemon tek for mushrooms, which isn't exactly the same as synthetic 4-HO-DMT.
No, I meant exactly what I've said. I've extracted the alkaloids from mushrooms and converted the psilocybin to psilocin in the process. I did not then isolate the psilocin so there were traces of other alkaloids in there, but for all intents and purposes psilocin was the active component and I did not notice a difference outside of the onset from mushrooms themselves. If I were talking about the lemon tek I would have said the lemon tek.
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I've been seeing you suggest information recently based on anything other than individual experience and facts,
Yes? That's what I base EVERYTHING in my life on, personal experience and facts. What else is there?
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you can't say something is some way just because you think it is, subjective experiences are great, but not if you haven't had one.
If you only have subjective experiences/anecdotes to go by then yes, of course that's what you base ideas on. You then test those ideas to confirm it, once confirmed it's no longer a belief and it becomes a fact. If what we were talking about was a confirmed fact we wouldn't be dating this in the first place. We do not have tests which confirm whether these molecules have significantly different pharmacology so we have to go on personal experiences which have lead me to believe they don't have a significant difference. What facts are you and Aurora basing your belief on? I'd love to see them. Aurora can't even give me a logical reason why he thinks they're different much less evidence to back it up, he relies on circular reasoning and when confronted with that fact stops responding. Let's see what you can do.
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Your suggestions may further confuse people than lead them in the right direction, but I'm glad we're all here to learn.
We're debating over what is the truth here. It hasn't been studied so we can only guess. If by confusing people you mean showing them other possibilities than the narrow one that you believe then yes, I'm totally confusing them. Just as Galileo confused people into believing the earth rotates around the sun I'm confusing them into believing psilocin does not produce different effects than the prodrug psilocybin .
What I'm not doing is presenting my opinion as truth which you guys seem to hop back and forth between saying yours is an opinion and then other times present it as an accepted fact. It might be a more widely accepted opinion, but neither of us, I hope, would deny that is is unconfirmed. As long as we keep that clear no one should be confused.
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When working with prodrugs and molecules that differ from our standard psychedelics, we notice just how much a single change can make to the pharmacology. LSD for instance, originally formulated by Hoffmann, he also formulated an LSD prodrug called ALD-52 all it is a simple addition of an acetyl group(organic ester in chemistry) bound to the Nitrogen ring of LSD and this proves to be a serious change in the effects of the drug as well as pharmacology.
And this is not true either, it's an assumption. The only thing you can use to conclude that ALD-52 is different than LSD in effects is anecdotal reports, many reports likewise exist to say they are indistinguishable. Don't present an opinion as fact, talking about confusing people.
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You can assume the nature of an Acetoxy group as you can inspect the nature of Heroin and it's active metabolite acetyl 6-MAM
And I think that's the major flaw in your logic. You're extrapolating the pharmacodynamics of one drug and applying it uniformly to any other drugs and you can't do that, it's not remotely that simple. Heroin is 2-5x more potent than morphine by weight, otherwise they are nearly indistinguishable, but by your logic doses of ALD-52 or 4-AcO-DMT would be 2-5x more potent than their non acetylated anlogues, but that's not the case.
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Most likely if you were to ask me, in terms of 4ACO-DMT and ALD52 they turn into a completely unique molecule that is active in the blood brain barrier before and during the drug is fully metabolizing into the parent molecule. This is what causes the unique difference in subjective experience, the message of DMT remains the same.
I agree they're active on their own, but we disagree in how significant the differences are in effects and I think the reported differences cannot be ruled out as placebo. Your opinion is no less valid than mine, but it's just that, an opinion. I am glad you're at least providing a reason and support for your beliefs though. Your reason is mostly sound and I don't disagree with it, I just disagree that the end result produces a significant difference to the individual.
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If you were to further compare 4-Aco to 4-HO tryptamines you could probably find your answer in trying them out yourself, and seeing the subjective difference between 4 acos and 4 hos. MET, DET, DPT, go at it and do the comparisons between Hydroxy and Acetoxy and you could probably pair 2 and 2 together for Psilocins case.
I don't think it's that simple, I especially would not trust my own subjective experience as the only deciding factor either. At best you would need a controlled analysis of people taking these various chemicals blind and reporting the effects.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23943826 - 12/20/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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krypto2000 said: If the person doesn't notice then where would the difference occur? I don't understand. Are you saying it makes qualitative differences that others observe in that person? If so how did you conclude that? I'm trying to understand your logic or reasoning for believing this, that these different chemicals deliver a different experience.
I never said anything about concluding anything I simply stated that people can experience many effects that they aren't even aware of because they suck either at analyzing or they have forgotten what being sober is like so they have nothing to compare it to. I've seen this happen so many times with mushrooms too. More than with other psychedelics and no I am not talking about qualitative differences that others observe.
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That seems like a classic example of circular logic to me. Look at the definition from wikipedia:
"Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade."
You are saying, "They make a difference because they [the differences] exist." Or maybe it's "They make a difference because they [the chemicals] exist." I'm not sure, it's worded ambiguously, but both would qualify as circular logic.
Are you high or something? When I said "because they exist" I wasn't talking about the effects
I was talking about the alkaloids.
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"How are the molecules different? What? I never said they're different.."
What do you mean? You didn't say it directly, but if the molecules were not different we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your position is that the 4 compounds in question feel different, mine is they do not. If there was only one compound in question we would both agree it feels the same as itself.
No...once again you make no sense. If the molecules were not different we'd still be having this discussion because my argument still holds true. My argument is that even if you had pure psilocybin it's not going to feel exactly the same as mushrooms which contain more than just psilocybin.
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I have debated before that besides THC and CBD I do not believe there is enough evidence to believe the other cannabinoids contribute anything appreciable to the high. No need to get into that though. The cannabinoids have been widely researched in comparison to mushrooms, just because the chemicals are different doesn't mean they have much difference in effects.
You are wrong, sorry to say. If you don't want to admit it that's fine but you are wrong.
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Besides the delayed onset do you think psilocybin is any different than psilocin since they would even be psilocin once in the brain?
What? Come on dude what are you even saying....you're saying that psilocybin is going to give a different effect than psilocin? That makes no sense but then again that's seems to be the overall theme of your replies.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23943859 - 12/20/16 04:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sorry but I just find it completely bizarre that anyone would try to argue that a single molecule substance (even if it was a prodrug) could ever have the same effects as a "drug" with multiple alkaloids that OBVIOUSLY all synergize with psilocin/psilocybin.
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krypto2000
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AuroraBorealis88 said:
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krypto2000 said: If the person doesn't notice then where would the difference occur? I don't understand. Are you saying it makes qualitative differences that others observe in that person? If so how did you conclude that? I'm trying to understand your logic or reasoning for believing this, that these different chemicals deliver a different experience.
I never said anything about concluding anything I simply stated that people can experience many effects that they aren't even aware of because they suck either at analyzing or they have forgotten what being sober is like so they have nothing to compare it to. I've seen this happen so many times with mushrooms too. More than with other psychedelics and no I am not talking about qualitative differences that others observe.
This seems like a very odd view and is not too relevant to the main topic, but it's still not making much sense to me. If someone experiences an effect that they're not aware of couldn't it be argued that they didn't experience it at all? If I'm for instance experiencing synesthesia in the form of hearing sounds but am not aware of it then who or what would be hearing sounds? If I'm not hearing them and nothing else is hearing them then nothing is being heard, thus no synesthesia occurred.
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That seems like a classic example of circular logic to me. Look at the definition from wikipedia:
"Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade."
You are saying, "They make a difference because they [the differences] exist." Or maybe it's "They make a difference because they [the chemicals] exist." I'm not sure, it's worded ambiguously, but both would qualify as circular logic.
Are you high or something? When I said "because they exist" I wasn't talking about the effects
I was talking about the alkaloids.
That's still circular reasoning, that was my 2nd of two interpretations.
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"How are the molecules different? What? I never said they're different.."
What do you mean? You didn't say it directly, but if the molecules were not different we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your position is that the 4 compounds in question feel different, mine is they do not. If there was only one compound in question we would both agree it feels the same as itself.
No...once again you make no sense. If the molecules were not different we'd still be having this discussion because my argument still holds true. My argument is that even if you had pure psilocybin it's not going to feel exactly the same as mushrooms which contain more than just psilocybin.
What? If the molecules were the same you wouldn't have an argument and neither would I. The mushrooms would only contain one active alkaloid and thus it would feel the same as that alkaloid in isolation. This post wouldn't even exist because 4-aco wouldn't exist either.
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I have debated before that besides THC and CBD I do not believe there is enough evidence to believe the other cannabinoids contribute anything appreciable to the high. No need to get into that though. The cannabinoids have been widely researched in comparison to mushrooms, just because the chemicals are different doesn't mean they have much difference in effects.
You are wrong, sorry to say. If you don't want to admit it that's fine but you are wrong.
What makes me wrong, just because you say so? No need to provide any evidence, no need to even provide a reason, I'm just wrong at your word and that's the end of the discussion? Well if that's all it takes then you're wrong. 
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Besides the delayed onset do you think psilocybin is any different than psilocin since they would even be psilocin once in the brain?
What? Come on dude what are you even saying....you're saying that psilocybin is going to give a different effect than psilocin? That makes no sense but then again that's seems to be the overall theme of your replies.
Wait, what? I'm saying I don't think psilocin is distinguishable from psilocybin and they are probably indistinguishable from 4-AcO and beocystin even. Are you saying you think psilocin is the same as psilocybin as far as effects go but the rest of the alkaloids present in only trace amounts do make the trip different?
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23944098 - 12/20/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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They are distinguishable. You are wrong. It doesn't really need an explanation.
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krypto2000
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Why can no one provide a shred of evidence to support that if it's so obviously true?
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Eclipse3130
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23944148 - 12/20/16 05:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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And this is not true either, it's an assumption. The only thing you can use to conclude that ALD-52 is different than LSD in effects is anecdotal reports, many reports likewise exist to say they are indistinguishable. Don't present an opinion as fact, talking about confusing people.
It's not an assumption, ALD-52 was studied back along side LSD, they even did tests on it, concluding 1/5th the toxicity, 1/8th the pyretogenic effect and double the antiserotonin effect comparatively to LSD. The drug actually has an entirely different pharmacology.
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I don't think it's that simple, I especially would not trust my own subjective experience as the only deciding factor either. At best you would need a controlled analysis of people taking these various chemicals blind and reporting the effects.
Agreed, but it does help.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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FishyAl
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Both are awesome! I have been under most distress on 4 aco DMT, and have taken mushrooms many more times than the research chem. I prefer mushies, but they are just more available to me. Don't get me wrong, I like both substances and they are similar in effect, but mushies rule supreme to me out of all psych. substances.
-------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reality is the cruelest dream. I am probably not a cop.....

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krypto2000
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Eclipse3130 said:
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And this is not true either, it's an assumption. The only thing you can use to conclude that ALD-52 is different than LSD in effects is anecdotal reports, many reports likewise exist to say they are indistinguishable. Don't present an opinion as fact, talking about confusing people.
It's not an assumption, ALD-52 was studied back along side LSD, they even did tests on it, concluding 1/5th the toxicity, 1/8th the pyretogenic effect and double the antiserotonin effect comparatively to LSD. The drug actually has an entirely different pharmacology.
Fair enough, I'll concede that ALD is different then. I don't see why you'd make it up so I'll take your word for it.
As far as the psilocin, psilocybin, 4-AcO, beocystin debate I was curious if Shulgin had tested them, and besides beocystin he had. On the extensive commentary this is his opening paragraph:
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There are two generalizations implicit here, one of which I am quite at peace with, but the other is both complex and disturbing. The OK item is the casual equation between the hydroxy compound psilocin, the acetate ester, and the phosphate ester, psilocybin. As I had discussed in the CZ-74 to CEY-19 entries in 4-HO-DET, there is no proof that the ester goes to the indolol metabolically, but it is a good guess, and there have been no demonstrated differences in their pharmacology. Ditto here, with psilocin and psilocybin. I have explored both of them as pure chemicals, and I find them completely interchangeable as to their pharmacological properties.
Here is a link to the entry if you would like to read it, I'm referring to the extensive commentary section at the bottom. He then goes on to discuss whether these 2 chemicals can represent magic mushrooms as a whole and concludes that we cannot say one way or the other because they have not been tested and there are so many different species out there which could have varying alkaloid profiles. The only other chemical he mentions by name, that may specifically influence the effects of mushrooms to be known is beocystin which he cites is, "quite unexplored pharmacologically" and thus we can't really guess about that either. As I said I'm basing my idea that beocystin might be the same on as little as a single report and for that reason I'm not very fixed to that idea either.
There have been analysis on cubensis however and they are effectively just psilocybin and psilocin. Even where beocystin is detected it is in trace amounts and cited as weaker than either of the major alkaloids so it cannot contribute to a trip. Unless you believe there is some highly potent alkaloid within cubensis yet to be found it's probably safe to conclude psilocin and psilocybin are the only two chemicals that matter.
If you guys want to keep arguing this and insisting I'm wrong you're really going to need to bring something to the table other than "just cause, you're wrong krypto, it's a fact cause I said so." I have explained my reasoning from the beginning as well as what evidence I had, now even Shulgin seems to agree, yet Eclipse is the only one to even give a reason why he believes otherwise. He also provided a source for his ALD belief and that was settled as quick as it was brought up, I was wrong on that assumption, studies had been done proving otherwise. He also seems to be the only one to agree that both of our positions are speculation based on limited data where as you guys arrogantly act as if it's an established fact. I think it's a wide held assumption that's been mistaken for truth.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000] 1
#23956184 - 12/25/16 10:58 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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People experience subjective effects all the time that they're not consciously aware of. Do you not know how drugs work?
Also WHAT THE FUCK you're actually saying you don't believe in the entourage effect when it comes to substances like mushrooms, iboga, cannabis, salvia and mescaline containing cacti? Ha well if that's true then I think this discussion is over. Why would I waste my time talking to someone who doesn't even believe in the entourage effect? I find it quite amusing that you ask for evidence on something that is common knowledge.
P.S. If you think stating that a psychoactive drug having a psychoactive effect is "circular reasoning" you should probably go see a doctor.
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nooneman


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krypto is right. The reliable scientific sources have them as interchangable, but this comes into conflict with the subjective experiences of some of the people who have tried the drugs. This conflict between the scientific sources and some of the personal subjective sources is impossible to solve given that it's currently woefully impossible to study these drugs and their effects in detail.
In the absence of evidence, it is reasonable to take either position. Just because krypto's position disagrees with your own does not mean that you need to attack him personally especially considering that in the absence of evidence he has an equal chance of being right as you do. His position is not unreasonable, and in fact many other members on here and elsewhere agree with his position.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: nooneman]
#23956224 - 12/25/16 11:10 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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People who don't think the entourage effect is real aren't worth my time. I didn't even know denying the entourage effect was a real thing
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Sabnock
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AuroraBorealis88 said: People who don't think the entourage effect is real aren't worth my time. I didn't even know denying the entourage effect was a real thing 
I agree, though i call it synergy rather than the entourage effect. It should be well known by now that while a compound in itself may be active, other compounds can synergize with it which creates a unique effect, like Rue seed compared to Caapi vine, or Mimosa compared to Acacia. Cannabis with it's different strains and different ratios of terpenes and Cannabinoids. I've noticed many things can interact with each other and produce distinct effects that isolated actives themselves can't replicate.
As for the topic on hand, i've tried 4-ACO a few times, Shrooms a few times, but the times i've tried 4-ACO, it did feel a bit different compared to the Shrooms and i think i'd much prefer the Shrooms, but 4-ACO can also be good. Kinda like pure DMT compared to Mimosa or Acacia, things are just a bit different due to other compounds in the mixture which synergize with the active compounds to give it a certain character or effects.
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krypto2000
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: Sabnock]
#23956613 - 12/25/16 02:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll reply later and address your last reply aurora, it's christmas and I'm busy, but I never said I don't believe in the entourage effect, I never said anything about salvia, mescaline, etc. It seems to me that instead of addressing the topic at hand and valid points that I've brought up you're trying to create a strawman argument now.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: Sabnock]
#23956740 - 12/25/16 04:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sabnock said: I agree, though i call it synergy rather than the entourage effect. It should be well known by now that while a compound in itself may be active, other compounds can synergize with it which creates a unique effect, like Rue seed compared to Caapi vine, or Mimosa compared to Acacia. Cannabis with it's different strains and different ratios of terpenes and Cannabinoids. I've noticed many things can interact with each other and produce distinct effects that isolated actives themselves can't replicate.
As for the topic on hand, i've tried 4-ACO a few times, Shrooms a few times, but the times i've tried 4-ACO, it did feel a bit different compared to the Shrooms and i think i'd much prefer the Shrooms, but 4-ACO can also be good. Kinda like pure DMT compared to Mimosa or Acacia, things are just a bit different due to other compounds in the mixture which synergize with the active compounds to give it a certain character or effects.
Yea well it is technically a synergy but the word synergy can mean a lot of different things when it comes to drugs like LSD + MDMA or Weed + Shrooms. But ya it's a special kind of synergy, one that nature intended on. I think claiming that a pill containing psilocybin will give the exact same effects as a mushroom which contains Psilocybin, Baeocystin and Norbaeocystin to be a bit ridiculous. They obviously all synergize with the active ingredient psilocybin and the same goes for mescaline's alkaloids and all the cannabinoids found in cannabis. For cannabis some people just think it's all THC and CBD but there's also things like CBN (makes you tired) and THCV which causes shorter lasting more "psychedelic" effects than THC and it also causes appetite suppression.
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krypto2000 said:I'll reply later and address your last reply aurora, it's christmas and I'm busy, but I never said I don't believe in the entourage effect, I never said anything about salvia, mescaline, etc. It seems to me that instead of addressing the topic at hand and valid points that I've brought up you're trying to create a strawman argument now.
The only strawman argument I see is you ironically accusing me of using a strawman argument. That in itself is a strawman argument because I never avoided any of your points in fact I just gave more examples.
Why did I bring up mescaline containing cacti? We talked about mushrooms which is also a naturally occurring psychedelic that also has multiple alkaloids along side its main active compound. Why did I bring up Salvia? Well we were talking about cannabis weren't we? They're both naturally occurring atypical hallucinogens that have multiple terpenes along side their main active compound.
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krypto2000
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Okay, fair enough, it seems like a straw man to me but I see where you were coming from. I don't think that though, I'm only talking about psilocin, psilocybin, baeocystin, and 4aco, plus I guess w/e other alkaloids are present in lesser amounts in cubes. I would be shocked if besides a delayed come up and longer, slightly milder, trip that there is any difference in effects from psilocin to psilocybin. I woupd likewise be surprised if someone could tell the difference in a blind test between psilocin and 4aco. I wouldn't be shocked, but surprised. I suspect baeocystin likely feels the same too, albeit the onset and potency might differ, but due to the lack of any real info I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were different, there's not much info on it to go by. I've already explained my reason for this so I won't repeat it, if you have a specific question though I would be happy to answer it. Oh and it's not that I think any other alkaloids present do not have different effects, I have no real opinion on that as they're less studied than baeocystin and I can't begin to guess, but due to how small the amounts are that would be present I don't think they contribute to the experience at all, entourage effect or not. I fully believe cbd feels different from thc for instance but if you have 20%thc and 0.05% cbd I don't think that cdb is going to effect the high.
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NotBrandon

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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23958950 - 12/26/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didnt make this thread for people to argue.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: 4-ace-o-dmt vs Shrooms [Re: krypto2000]
#23960467 - 12/27/16 12:43 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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krypto2000 said: Okay, fair enough, it seems like a straw man to me but I see where you were coming from. I don't think that though, I'm only talking about psilocin, psilocybin, baeocystin, and 4aco, plus I guess w/e other alkaloids are present in lesser amounts in cubes. I would be shocked if besides a delayed come up and longer, slightly milder, trip that there is any difference in effects from psilocin to psilocybin. I woupd likewise be surprised if someone could tell the difference in a blind test between psilocin and 4aco. I wouldn't be shocked, but surprised. I suspect baeocystin likely feels the same too, albeit the onset and potency might differ, but due to the lack of any real info I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were different, there's not much info on it to go by. I've already explained my reason for this so I won't repeat it, if you have a specific question though I would be happy to answer it. Oh and it's not that I think any other alkaloids present do not have different effects, I have no real opinion on that as they're less studied than baeocystin and I can't begin to guess, but due to how small the amounts are that would be present I don't think they contribute to the experience at all, entourage effect or not. I fully believe cbd feels different from thc for instance but if you have 20%thc and 0.05% cbd I don't think that cdb is going to effect the high.
Well of course CBD does feel different and it's already proven to have a psychoactive effect as a well as a synergistic effect with THC, but like I said before there's also things like CBN and THCV ect. Most of the cannabinoids in cannabis aren't psychoactive unless THC is involved, it's not necessarily that they're getting your higher it's just that being high on THC makes you aware of them. Without THC they're useless and same goes for psilocybin and its alkaloids. I know one of them is I think psychoactive on its own though.
Also I'm not saying psilocybin and psilocin gives different effects because that wouldn't really make sense, they are both going to give the same effects it's just my argument is that taking pure psilocin or pure psilocybin without the other alkaloids is going to feel different from mushrooms (whether the user is consciously aware of it or not).
I'm not saying someone can tell in a blind test between psilocin and 4-AcO-DMT because I assume they wouldn't and have said before not everyone is very analytical of these experiences and plus the differences are probably so small. However people still do notice differences it's just about whether or not that would appear in a blind test as well.
Personally I don't even think I could tell the difference between LSD and mushrooms in a blind test at first, I may be able to figure it out eventually but it probably wouldn't be right away unless something happened.
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krypto2000
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That's an entirely valid view point. I am definitely open to that being possible, I just took issue with you saying or implying it is a fact vs speculation, however likely that speculation may be. I think we can agree on our differences, we seem to recognize that neither of ours is proven and both are possible truths, we just believe in opposing outcomes, and both sides have supporting evidence.
It could all be down to philosphy too, where do you draw the line and lable something as significantly different? I do believe any change, even changing the salt of a molecule, will have some minor differences, but I'm sure we both draw the line beyond that. To me if someone doesn't notice the differences bc they are so subtle then I draw the line after that, but you are counting smaller differences as significant than I am it seems so that is at least one source for contention.
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