|
Aik



Registered: 09/20/15
Posts: 141
Last seen: 7 years, 4 days
|
Buddhism against hallucinogens
#23940462 - 12/19/16 02:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I respect Buddhism and consider it the purest religion. I started admiring Buddhism after my multiple experiences with psilocybin. What bothers me is that Buddhists have negative views on hallucinogens. When Dalai Lama was asked about the use of hallucinogens for spiritual growth, he replied by saying that they create illusions and that we don't need more illusions as we already have plenty. It should be taken into account that he has no personal experience with hallucinogens. However, nearly all Buddhism practitioners including some that have some personal experience have similar views. Of course, it could be argued that hallucinogens can be used in many different ways and that these people had negative or superficial experiences. Generally, it seems that the negative view on hallucinogens comes from the no intoxication precept that prohibits any kind of intoxication that results in carelessness. It could be also argued that tripping on some hallucinogens does not count as intoxication.
The Buddhist view changed my views on shrooms. I am not sure whether to continues using them or not. Any ideas?
--------------------
|
Morel Guy
Stranger


Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 15,577
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
#23940486 - 12/19/16 02:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I like the term psychedelic. Hallucinogen denotes pure fabrication and illusion.
I never would of thought that order, insight and magnitudes of bliss were at all possible without shamanic allies. Who knows if it's even a close shot to achieving such states through disciplined sobriety. Even the Buddhist say it takes countless life times to achieve those states.
I'd rather open the door and take a chance of seeing heaven to leave it shut hoping it will open by some force.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
|
LRG
Supernaut

Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 871
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Morel Guy]
#23940627 - 12/19/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The original point of "We already have enough illusions" is well said. I consider them to be fun and dangerous.
Quote:
Morel Guy said: I'd rather open the door and take a chance of seeing heaven to leave it shut hoping it will open by some force.
You have to die. If that's a chance you're willing to take then go for it. Not advising you should.
There is a realm beyond this one, the Divine Realm. Accept that and move on. In my opinion it is completely separate from the idea of "dimensions." It is something else entirely.
I'm not a fan of religions. It takes away the power from yourself. I do not believe it takes lifetimes to achieve enlightened states. All it takes will and determination. I also don't think the Dali Llama is an "enlightened" being. More or less just a wise old man with a lot of conjectures.
If mushrooms help you on your spiritual journey then don't feel obligated to stop because some dogmatic religion said they were bad. I don't take them anymore because I learned all I needed to and moved on. I'm still fascinated by the psychedelic experience, but have turned my ire towards sobriety. That being said I would do an ayahuasca ceremony without a second thought.
-------------------- "I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle "I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes! "Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous "Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."
|
Aik



Registered: 09/20/15
Posts: 141
Last seen: 7 years, 4 days
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: LRG]
#23941292 - 12/19/16 06:56 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The thing is, I agree with everything Buddhist teachings say that has to be done in order to increase awareness and understanding. Psychedelics ban is the only thing that stands out and if everything feels right then why would this be an exception. Really fucking annoying tbh.
--------------------
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: LRG]
#23941302 - 12/19/16 06:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Buddhism isn't perfect; it has much of the same life-denying shit as Abrahamism - this is, after all, how the priests and monks derive their power.
The admonition against intoxication makes no sense if you consider that, when you meditate, the reason why it's enjoyable is that your brain releases the neurotransmitter 5-hydroxytriptamine. This is not fundamentally different to taking a drug, as long as the drug isn't booze/meth/coke/smack.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: viktor] 1
#23941359 - 12/19/16 07:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
If you think "Buddhism" Is against psychedelics or shamanism in general you have probobly only begun to explore the terrain and scope of it.
Gotama Buddha used them while he was an ascetic but renounced them for the fleeting quality and unfixed and dream like temporary revelations. It is not talked about much at all, but I found out while staying in a monastery that had some old old sutras and discourses of Gotama speaking about it.
On the other hand... Dzogchen, a lineage so to speak of tibetan buddhism and Bon aboriginal shamanism is by far my favorite of Buddhist tradition....Please look into a Book called : Finding Comfort and Ease in Enchantment ....its is the writings of Longchempa Rinpoche and it is the most distilled elixer of truth any psychonaut could hope for in this life time IMHO. That and some Zen lineages are also quiet not what they seem until you stay long enough in the monastery and pass your initial trials, also one of my favorites. Even then I love all of them, Hinayana has a special place in my heart too for its strict to the book way, Zen for its pureness and Vajriyana for that oh so psychedelic way of finding the Dharma.
Put simply its not good to flat out come out and say Psychedelics are just fine to take! And Buddhism is cool with it.... thats just not how it works and is irresponsible because they take into consideration each and every ones individual karma and life conditions and circumstances and so prescribing such a thing with a blanket statement of yes or no can have dire consequences.
Many monks I met in the monastery that truly lived the Way had prior psychedelic usage in their youth. Although they abandoned them eventually because they learned how to attain the dwellings of Jhana. Which is the real , real deal.
Oh and the Dali Lama is a spokes person for a part of Buddhist tradition, so it would be like asking a politician if drugs are ok to take! You see where I am getting at? They have to be very careful in what they chose to say on such things. Btw the Dali Lama stays in contact with a few shamans just because it is tradition, but I dont know if he takes it seriously or with heedfulness, but still he seems ok for the most part. Got me? If not Ill clarify if you ask.
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/19/16 07:21 PM)
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
|
I used to worry about this because of what Meher Baba said (and he claimed to be God so I figured he would know) until on a trip the mushrooms themselves told me that they were alright to take. They explained that they were a part of nature and that I was also a part of nature and it was an alright and natural thing for us to commune in this way. I do not believe mushrooms were created without purpose, nor do I believe they were created for an evil purpose. Even the Bible says that all the natural plant drugs were created for a wholesome purpose.
Mushrooms do create illusions but witnessing the mind's power of illusion can actually help you see the truth. of course religious leaders aren't going to recommend it, there are risks they are not going to recommend anything risky. But in my experience, psychedelics can do amazing things for you and I see no reason not to take advantage of them if you feel so called. They are definitely not for everyone and abusing them or not respecting them will have consequences.
Remember as a psychedelic user you are not required to take them all the time or even often. Just because on that trip I felt the OKness of tripping on mushrooms, I did not interpret that to mean I should just take them whenever. It is a sacred thing to do that should be done with care and prudence and right intent. If you don't feel sure about taking them and wonder if maybe sober meditation would suit you better, then there is nothing wrong with exploring sober meditation. I don't think the mushrooms will get offended if you spend your time bettering yourself in other ways. Some people only need to trip a few times to learn the lessons they need to learn, other people trip throughout their entire lives. Its individual.
Also, while there may be spiritual authorities who are against psychedelics and give valid reasons not to use them, whose say they are the ultimate authority? Mooji is a spiritual teacher who I have a lot of trust in and when asked about ayahuasca he said that he would not say not to do it. He didn't recommend it either and he pointed out some of the drawbacks, but he also said it could have benefits. So he let his followers make their own decision and I respect that. Is the Dalai Lama a higher authority than Mooji? Not in my book.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
|
Aik


Registered: 09/20/15
Posts: 141
Last seen: 7 years, 4 days
|
|
Thank's for clarifying, I will definitely check out the book.
--------------------
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
#23942344 - 12/20/16 02:56 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I want that book too.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
|
lines
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 1,409
Loc: USA
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Peyote Road]
#23944542 - 12/20/16 08:18 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It's not a good idea to use shrooms for the rest of your life. Alan Watts said "once you get the message, hang up the phone".
Psychedelics can help open a persons mind to certain things; psychedelics aren't necessary for that, there are other methods. However if a person does decide to experiment with psychedelics they should realize that psychedelics are not a long term strategy for mental development. A person is not supposed to be doing drugs their whole life.
|
Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
Posts: 15,622
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Morel Guy]
#23944591 - 12/20/16 08:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Morel Guy said: I like the term psychedelic. Hallucinogen denotes pure fabrication and illusion.
I think Strassman says something similar in Spirit Molecule book, I could be mistaken though, but I have a memory where someone was saying how the term hallucinogen is not proper, I hate the term hallucinogen, sounds like something big brother would say.
-------------------- ©️
|
Aikinator
Stranger

Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 13
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: lines]
#23945103 - 12/21/16 01:59 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Well, that's one way of looking at them. Alan Watts is not the psychedelic guru. People like Dennis Mckenna support the view that mushrooms are like a mentor and just like with real mentors, one has a continuous relationship with them because they have so much to teach you in ways that a book can't.
|
Xero1
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 289
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aikinator]
#23945112 - 12/21/16 02:17 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
There are shortcuts to reach nirvana, but the lessons taught along the journey would not be learned.
--------------------
|
Morel Guy
Stranger


Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 15,577
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Lucis]
#23945416 - 12/21/16 08:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I've taken these substances and it's only hallucination when it's a bad trip. There is so much order, design and pure blissful functioning on good trips.
People see hallucinogens as dysfunction. I see it as the functioning of the bare nude psyche and something post life.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
|
Satya

Registered: 11/11/15
Posts: 175
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik] 1
#23946093 - 12/21/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I similarly started investigating Buddhism after an initial experience with psilocybin, it goes that way for many. It's a beautiful religion, it doesn't mean you have to become a buddhist or have the same beliefs as buddhists. What helped here was to follow the Buddhas most simple teachings to their core, not following interpretations etc. As far as I'm aware, Buddha hasn't been recorded speaking about psilocybin mushrooms, so anything said about it is probably speculative.
In my opinion they aren't intoxicants, they're temporary purifying agents/medicines, if used correctly. Really many views that sober people can have are much more toxic than a dose of psilocybin.
Overall, psychedelics can be a compliment to or a distraction from meditation... for someone else to suggest you should or should not, that's up to you alone. If you're interested in something you have that right, regardless of your other interests - Buddhism or anything. I don't think there has to be a conflict of interests when you're talking about psychedelics and meditation.
Just bare in mind one of the Buddhas most essential teachings - all things are impermanent. That includes the experience of a trip and it's temporary effects. (;
Edited by Satya (12/21/16 04:45 PM)
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aikinator]
#23946322 - 12/21/16 02:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Well, that's one way of looking at them. Alan Watts is not the psychedelic guru. People like Dennis Mckenna support the view that mushrooms are like a mentor and just like with real mentors, one has a continuous relationship with them because they have so much to teach you in ways that a book can't.
RIght, I agree with the Dennis Mckenna point of view. And that doesn't mean I think you must take mushrooms every week your whole life, how often you use them is individual. I've "hung up the phone" for periods of time in my life when I felt like I wasn't getting anything of value anymore from psychedelics, only to trip again years later and learn a lot.
What helped me understand the role psychedelics could play in one's life a little bit was reading books on plant spirit shamanism. Approaching them as medicine for the mind/body and soul as opposed to short cuts to enlightenment seemed like the best approach for me. It's not just psychedelics that I work with, I have a whole variety of medicinal herbs.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Peyote Road]
#23946810 - 12/21/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Peyote Road said:
Mushrooms do create illusions but witnessing the mind's power of illusion can actually help you see the truth.
This is spot on and very Dzogchen like.... and that book - Maya Yoga - Finding Comfort and Ease in Enchantment - translated by Keith Dowman - will show you what a man who truly lived the classical mystic life and its teachings distilled to its purest elixir for any body to practice and literally behold in their own lives sober or whilst tripping...will find it Indispensable.
If you guys really do get it - It'll make me jump with joy. Because after about 3 months of using that book as an aid in conjunction with daily and nightly formal meditation ( and meditation in between the formal meditations) I learned while staying in a Zen monastery , allowed for me to finally have break through and cross over while sober 
It was a grueling yet deeply satisfying 3 months, the most disciplined I had ever been in my life and it bore the fruits I had so longed hoped to find in my sober life but could only glimpse in tripping.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
|
I am definitely getting the book.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
|
MikeTesserect
Stranger


Registered: 12/07/16
Posts: 351
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
#23948177 - 12/22/16 06:24 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
life is too short for that much discipline. this is a new scientific era where we can hack our brains with drugs. we are made of drugs and chemicals.
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
|
Quote:
MikeTesserect said: life is too short for that much discipline. this is a new scientific era where we can hack our brains with drugs. we are made of drugs and chemicals.
lmafao ok Kid , Sure.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik] 2
#23956771 - 12/25/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Psychedelics are a useful aid in ones spiritual life, as long as they're not abused and one uses them with intent
I dont believe in asceticism or sobriety, moderation is the middle path.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23956857 - 12/25/16 05:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Repertoire89 said: I dont believe in asceticism or sobriety, moderation is the middle path.
I couldn't agree more, well said. This is a very important lesson for any human to learn.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
|
Fully agree, the question is, though, what constitutes asceticism.
Some people think of Buddhist ascetics and think that in order to be an ascetic nowadays you have to renounce everything and sleep in a wooden box and only eat lentils.
I think that back in Buddha's time, extreme poverty was the norm, so ascetics didn't actually have to go that far.
An ascetic by Western standards could be just someone who doesn't watch TV, eat fast food or drink booze. Because the social pressures to engage in those things are immense, and for a modern Westerner avoiding them might be as challenging as anything could be for a proto-Buddhist 2,400 years ago.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: viktor]
#23957168 - 12/25/16 07:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Thats an interesting point
I tend to think of it meaning celibacy, sobriety, veganism and the like
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23957406 - 12/25/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Repertoire89 said: Thats an interesting point
I tend to think of it meaning celibacy, sobriety, veganism and the like
Sure, but celibacy is easy when all the women are diseased and/or skanky as shit because it's 500 B.C. and there is no dental hygiene much less anything else. Easy to be sober when there are no fridges so all alcohol would be piss-warm. Also easy to be vegan when you're a skinny Indian surrounded by 99% vegans.
I avoid women, booze and tobacco but indulge in food, weed, sleep and caffeine. If I overindulge I just meditate more. Seems to be working as a middle way.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik] 1
#23957728 - 12/26/16 06:15 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Aik said: I respect Buddhism and consider it the purest religion. I started admiring Buddhism after my multiple experiences with psilocybin. What bothers me is that Buddhists have negative views on hallucinogens. When Dalai Lama was asked about the use of hallucinogens for spiritual growth, he replied by saying that they create illusions and that we don't need more illusions as we already have plenty. It should be taken into account that he has no personal experience with hallucinogens. However, nearly all Buddhism practitioners including some that have some personal experience have similar views. Of course, it could be argued that hallucinogens can be used in many different ways and that these people had negative or superficial experiences. Generally, it seems that the negative view on hallucinogens comes from the no intoxication precept that prohibits any kind of intoxication that results in carelessness. It could be also argued that tripping on some hallucinogens does not count as intoxication.
The Buddhist view changed my views on shrooms. I am not sure whether to continues using them or not. Any ideas?
have you heard of Mike Crowley? he is a great source of info about this and has recently published a book titled Secret Drugs of Buddhism, and at end of this I will link you to a lecture he has done about it. This guy is very friendly, has a facebook, and a while back he sent me a paper which included really interesting stuff. IE it was about how reveals that the god 'Indra' in the Rig Veda is pissed off with the new all-female 'Krishna' cult, because he/'Indra' represents/personifies an old order centralized around the amanita muscaria ,mushrooms whereas the Krisnha women swear allegiance to the dung mushrooms, pslocybin! This of course is all secretly encoded in the script and symbolism of the myths, and this info correlates with what I have learned from the likes of John Allegro and his books including The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
I agree with you that at least on the surface, the Buddhists of all persuasions seem VERY anti psychedelics. I once asked this Zennist why they were against it, and he said they entangled the user up with 'mara'. I looked at the etymology of the term.
I knew already that when a word as the root 'ma' you know it is connected with the female, eg 'ma-ma', 'mam'. That is a very ancient root. And so is typical this mostly male-dominated monastic belief system, Buddhism, which promises eventual release from the 'wheel of birth and death', would warn against the FRUITS of Mother Earth which inspire ecstasy and wisdom!
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: zzripz]
#23958066 - 12/26/16 10:52 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Aik said: I respect Buddhism and consider it the purest religion. I started admiring Buddhism after my multiple experiences with psilocybin. What bothers me is that Buddhists have negative views on hallucinogens. When Dalai Lama was asked about the use of hallucinogens for spiritual growth, he replied by saying that they create illusions and that we don't need more illusions as we already have plenty. It should be taken into account that he has no personal experience with hallucinogens. However, nearly all Buddhism practitioners including some that have some personal experience have similar views. Of course, it could be argued that hallucinogens can be used in many different ways and that these people had negative or superficial experiences. Generally, it seems that the negative view on hallucinogens comes from the no intoxication precept that prohibits any kind of intoxication that results in carelessness. It could be also argued that tripping on some hallucinogens does not count as intoxication.
The Buddhist view changed my views on shrooms. I am not sure whether to continues using them or not. Any ideas?
have you heard of Mike Crowley? he is a great source of info about this and has recently published a book titled Secret Drugs of Buddhism, and at end of this I will link you to a lecture he has done about it. This guy is very friendly, has a facebook, and a while back he sent me a paper which included really interesting stuff. IE it was about how reveals that the god 'Indra' in the Rig Veda is pissed off with the new all-female 'Krishna' cult, because he/'Indra' represents/personifies an old order centralized around the amanita muscaria ,mushrooms whereas the Krisnha women swear allegiance to the dung mushrooms, pslocybin! This of course is all secretly encoded in the script and symbolism of the myths, and this info correlates with what I have learned from the likes of John Allegro and his books including The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
I agree with you that at least on the surface, the Buddhists of all persuasions seem VERY anti psychedelics. I once asked this Zennist why they were against it, and he said they entangled the user up with 'mara'. I looked at the etymology of the term.
I knew already that when a word as the root 'ma' you know it is connected with the female, eg 'ma-ma', 'mam'. That is a very ancient root. And so is typical this mostly male-dominated monastic belief system, Buddhism, which promises eventual release from the 'wheel of birth and death', would warn against the FRUITS of Mother Earth which inspire ecstasy and wisdom!
mara or maya is the buddhist version of "the conventional world devil " (roughly)- but more close to what you might call " a master illusionist " or a tempter... or simply magical illusion. And many believe it literally and many believe it as an allegor/metaphor.
and actually it is the vehicle through which we become enlightened in buddhist practice. shamanism uses this plants and fungus to make this illusion more noticable - but the end point is the same if we talk from terms of experience and not from what we believe in.
it is through mara or maya that Gotama was able to realize the 2 truths.
and buddhism has practices that are pleasureable but they just steer away from things that rely upon looking outside ourselvs for it - the ones they have also cause excessive pleasure because it creates craving and craving is something that makes some one stressed - and sometimes the becomes traps in and of themselves hence why you will never learn the higher meditations unless you have a real teacher who can check you.
it was a different time back then, and not everything is set in stone - in fact nothing is.
Viktor made a great point and I think he is right in terms of yesterdays vs today's ascetics. and zZ Your getting your info from some unconventional places - but im aware of the work - but that myth you posited or story is incorrect and any one familiar with mahayana, hiniyana, and vajriyana and the tipitaka / canon would believe so.
Dont fool yourselfs - psychs have a place! in everything! but its irresponsible to come out and say it openly - you should think it over why and it should be obvious.
the buddhist practitioners who use drugs use them as a test for initiation to see if someone has right discernment and concentration and more before they go on to higher teachings (in some traditions only) - as well as for showing the power of the minds nature/ magical illusion and using it for special meditations...
but frankly they would only use them a handful if not only once r twice in their life - then have no more use for them - because once you have the higher meditations you can unlock the power of illusion to basically make the world your play ground.
So the lesson? Dont talk about it in public, or out loud, or with students until their initiation - and then dont mention it directly afterwards at all - it is taboo - so no one will ever adorn it - or abuse it etc etc.... nothing in excess!
That I know for sure? it happened when aboriginal shamanism and Gotamas teaching (what people now call Buddhism) met when it was being carried to other countries in its early days after gotama's death. So its not technically canon or kosher and is saved for a very special occasion / initiation into the higher mysterious of the mind .
Some people happen upon this teaching in their own life through fortuitous circumstance and right juncture and seeking wisdom while experimenting with a psychedelic - but it is a once in a life time experience - so trying to revisit it or re gain it is folly - it is not that kind of thing to begin with. And yet many people get stuck on this initiatory experience into the primordial nature of mind and then later crave the feeling it brought and forget the lesson/teaching...
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 11:15 AM)
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
why is your craving for your Buddhism stuff/ideal/goal/experience not craving...?
Quote:
crave (v.) Look up crave at Dictionary.com Old English crafian "ask, implore, demand by right," from North Germanic *krabojan (source also of Old Norse krefja "to demand," Danish kræve, Swedish kräva); perhaps related to craft in its base sense of "power." Current sense "to long for" is c. 1400, probably through intermediate meaning "to ask very earnestly" (c. 1300). Related: Craved; craving.
Are you not ironically craving not to crave?
Please do not tell me not to talk freely with others about psychedelics etc.
Quote:
Dont fool yourselfs - psychs have a place! in everything! but its irresponsible to come out and say it openly - you should think it over why and it should be obvious.
I am not bound by your religious rules and taboos so I will do as I see fit.
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: zzripz]
#23958646 - 12/26/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I am not religious nor do I crave to not crave I simply love living, and find comfort and ease in learning about the world around me and in me. having found neither truth or falsehood with my penetrating mind, I am relaxed. I was simply telling you all that I had found otherwise in regards to drugs and the history (current and past) of the multitudes of Buddhist tradition upon my travels and looking into and practicing within Buddhist monasteries. I am bound by no tradition or ritual or belief. Your online searches and reading of books is one thing, and my direct experience another. What seems to bother you about something I had typed? You perceived that I was speaking directly to you when I said Dont talk about psychs to others openly? Oh, Well I'll clarify. I was saying, that is how it is treated in some traditions of Buddhism. I was not talking to you - more so from the point of view of the initiator in a rite where after completing it a monk may excite and want to speak of it but the more senior monk would warn not to speak of it openly, and dismiss it and warn against it if asked by a layman.
I recognize all events as illusion and rest the weary mind, just as it is, in its primordial nature. The unwise in their naivete, craving truth, are beguiled, lost in the jungle of fivefold sensory illusion. · Be aware of the error of fixating on something that is nothing.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 04:20 PM)
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 10 hours
|
|
Peace is of the bitter Cosm...which is Incidental ... in the likely Algebra...or 2A = 2B...and then a 2C..which is chemical..in the most of us...
We use chemicals in a vacuum..called our digestion system..which is composed of stomach...esophagus, small intestine...large intestine...then it goes to the liver..or gall bladder..then to the Splean and then before is the
copy of this most formidable work:
Be aware that everything living are manifested by these two energies of Mine; I am the Creator, The sustainer and the destroyer of all worlds.!!
This is^ the problem..because when we do Psychedelics we understand the astronomy of time..which is in Gable..and Gamble..indeed as a Weed it is a Sequitur... So that what we do on drugs is not us? Maybe its an illusion of what we are...and then and there..we know the thing..to be the audible..is the release into real energy...
The question is:
Can psychedelics show us real energy?
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
|
Quote:
MikeTesserect said: life is too short for that much discipline. this is a new scientific era where we can hack our brains with drugs. we are made of drugs and chemicals.
A jounalist once asked salvador dali whether he took drugs to paint his bizarre paintings and his response was priceless. He said something like "I don't take drugs, I am drugs" which I think is a great way of looking at things.
In réponse to the OP, lots of people tend to get into meditation after a concentrated period of psychedelic use. Psychedelics can be too unpredictable, so people tend to move on to meditation which is more disciplined, but I see no reason why you couldn't mix and match as long as you are being safe. I do neither anymore these days
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: zzripz]
#23959426 - 12/26/16 09:59 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said: why is your craving for your Buddhism stuff/ideal/goal/experience not craving...?
Interestingly enough there is much discourse on this subject in Buddhism / Hinduism
Its largely irrelevant to me, so my explanation may be inadequate, but the idea is that you cross that bridge when you get there, after taking care of other desires you let go of those final attatchments. Looking at the practices of Zen Buddhists may illustrate this cleare, they don't strive for detachment so much as accept their circumstances.
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23959473 - 12/26/16 10:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
To the poster above me, and to zz rip.
Abandon the intellect which craves security in what is only a dream, reflection, echo, mirage, magic show, apparition.
That is the praxis , so there is no craving involved - it is a non action - but to the unwise they may fixate on it as if it was something to crave when really it is nothing, the method is to use meditation (jhana consciousness techniques in some schools) or more truly non-meditation to experience all phenomenon as dream consciousness, and fruit is release and achievement and fulfillment and creativity and sponteneity - through this infinite things are accomplished like in an endless perfect lucid dream. - for being like a dream the objective side is debunked and so the subjective side expires allowing the ego to retire - allowing self sprung intrinsic pure presence of the primordially pure mind to shine its stainless rays that uncover countless things allowing samadhi, dakini, siddhis. . Crossing over the ocean of self and other without movement or striving, this feat is already completed - for the spoiled mind confuses this unity with duality - but it is always unified- and so samsara is nirvana and vice versa.
The starting point and the goal coalesce and we find the starting point is the goal. Recognition of the realization is not something we strive for in the way we strive for say the finish line of a race. It is something we naturally relax into even before we realize it.
No agent or actor exists that can set itself up for or ego loss, so we relax into experience regarding it all like a dream and enchantingly watch the display of magical illusion that is our multidimensional phantasmagorical experience unfold in the primordially pure nature of mind. Doing so we fulfill our illusory dual purpose of serving self and others.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 10:50 PM)
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
|
You basically used a lot of words to repeat my previous comment
|
WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,773
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 4 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23959511 - 12/26/16 11:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23959512 - 12/26/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
to Rep^

-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 11:06 PM)
|
WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,773
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 4 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: WhoManBeing]
#23959523 - 12/26/16 11:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
|
Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
#23966026 - 12/29/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
As was mentioned previously, Tibetan Buddhism had some historical encounters with the Bon religion of the area, and is somewhat more forgiving to mind altering substances than may be let on.
A couple notable points: "Duddul Dorje discovered a scroll that Padmasambhava's consort was said to have concealed in a cave on the northern bank of a tributary to the Po Tsangpo River. The terma, or revealed treasure-text was entitled Self-Liberation through Hearing of the Great Blissful Land of Pemako. In it, Padmasambhava announced the conditions for opening the hidden-land:"
Quote:
In a future age, armies will invade Tibet from east and west In order to benefit the suffering Tibetans, I, Padmasambhava have prepared the hidden lands. Of the many hidden valleys, the most extraordinary is the great blissful Buddha Realm of Pemako. Just by recalling it for only a moment opens the path to Buddhahood. There is no need to mention the benefit of actually going there... Many kinds of samadhi will arise spontaneously in one's mind... The wisdom channels will open... I, Padmasambhava, and an ocean of siddhas and dakinis as well as peaceful and wrathful deities can all be directly seen...
A marvelous "power grass" grows there; whoever finds and eats this plant, even old men, will become like sixteen-year-old youths... There is a grass called tsakhakun; whoever eats this grass can have visions of various celestial realms and underworlds. There are hundreds of edible fruits And numerous grains growing spontaneously.
(page 453)
"Khamtrul Rinpoche offered vivid accounts of these plants in his manuscript, The Lama's Heart Advice which Dispels All Obstacles:"
Quote:
The magical herb that increases happiness is white in color and tinged with red. Its five flowering buds smell like elephant bile. Its petals are small and curled like an infant child. The magical herb that bestows immortality resembles a red lotus flower tinged with black. Its camphor-like aroma spreads in the wind. It has eight leaves and is shaped like a crimson toad. The magical herb that grants all supreme and mundane siddhis, is a golden flower tinged with red. It exudes a scent of nutmeg. The tips of its six petals are slightly curled; its blue leaves hang upside down like a cuckoo. The magical herb that empowers one to fly through the sky like the wisdom dakini Dorje Pagmo is a blossoming flower like red coral that has been polished with oil. It has an aroma of aloe wood and the pungent taste of cumin. Its three petals resemble the shape of a garuda [a celestial hawk] soaring in the heavens. Its leaves are formed like a peacock with the breasts of lapis lazuli. The magical herb that reveals intrinsic realization is a blue flower shaped like a bell. A single whiff intoxicates the mind with its scent of white sandalwood. Its petals are contoured like a bulbous and shiny seed in the shape of a vajra. Its leaves resemble the plumes of a small light green rooster. This describes the five supreme magical herbs that are found in the Hidden-Land of Pemako. During the day they emit a shower of rainbow light while at night the burn like fire, quavering in dancing light. These herbs contain magical power. They are sacred to this holy land and extremely difficult to find. On the scaramental occasions of the 10th and 25th days of the lunar cycle, pray one-pointedly to Padmasambhava to fulfill...the stages of approach and accomplishment of one's yidam [tutelary deity]. In preparing the tantric substances for appeasing the hosts of assembled dakinis, bind the dharma protectors and eight classes of gods and demons through oaths and commands. Throughout all times, encourage them to persevere in their entrusted tasks. Thereafter, by receiving their blessings and power, one will come to behold these five types of supreme medicinal herbs. Their rays of rainbow-colored light expand over the landscape like a stealthily creeping mouse. Whatever the direction of the wind, these medicinal herbs sway and bend like sharp swords. As they move, their dewlike nectar is flung outward and...their secretions can be collected in an oblong spoon like drops of precious jewels. As one ingests their inner essences, the plants' innate blessing power is actualized and one experience the co-emergence of bliss and emptiness. Physically, one begins to transform into the body of a youthful deva [divinity] and attains immortal life...Pray that all sublime siddhis, both supreme and mundane, be instantly attained--like the sky0delighting dakinis who encircle the world...
(pages 462-463) (both sets of quotations are as they appear in The Heart of the World: A Journey to Tibet's Lost Paradise by Ian Baker.
It is worth noting that Tibetan Buddhism is largely informed by Vajrayana (Tantric) Buddhist traditions, which is a further extension of Mahayana Buddhist traditions, where it became commonplace to claim to have found hidden holy texts revealed by Buddhas or deities, that added additional beliefs to Buddhism in a more traditional sense.
It is also possible to read accounts of Tantric Buddhist masters and mahasiddhas drinking extensive quantities of alcohol, but only really becoming intoxicated by doing so if it is expedient to some aspect of their teaching.
Presumably a series of beliefs regarding plant allies were adapted from Bon into Buddhism for the purposes of more readily converting the populous over to Buddhism, similar to how Tibetan Buddhism has some ties with black magic deities, and in some instances held a practice of maintaining a hidden area in temples/monasteries where an individual would be assigned to effectively keeping local malevolent spirits under control. Buddhism has adapted a cosmology to make itself more acceptable to local populace in other parts of the world as well -- rather than trying to deny the beliefs of citizenry, Buddhism tends to amalgamate other beliefs on the basis that Buddhism proper does not concern itself with their affairs.
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Tantrika] 1
#23966931 - 12/29/16 10:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Well said, that is some of the things for sure. There is some more out there and a few other substances used as well. Cannabis, Datura, and Fungus just to name 3. I love the way oboriginal spirituality mixes with other traditions once they go through the initial working things out and assimilating period. Especially in mexico and in tibet with psychedelic mystical shamanic practices from the mayans, aztecs, incas, and particularly the huicholes and Bon and into dzogchen and more.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/29/16 11:28 PM)
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
|
This turned into a good thread.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
|
quagmire
Stranger

Registered: 10/31/16
Posts: 58
Last seen: 7 years, 28 days
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Peyote Road] 1
#23973062 - 01/01/17 01:33 PM (7 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
I am a "recent convert" to Buddhism. I don't consider my trips to be "intoxication", and the vow names three specific drugs by name, which we have no translation for.
More importantly, there are no commandments in Buddhism. There is a dialogue and a process.
You can drink tea to meditate for an hour if you can't do it without, whats the problem with me taking a mushroom tea so i can perform three hours of powerful meditation in one sitting, with little experience? It's changing my every day behavior as well, in very positive ways.
|
KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
|
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
#23973091 - 01/01/17 01:45 PM (7 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Aik said: I respect Buddhism and consider it the purest religion. I started admiring Buddhism after my multiple experiences with psilocybin. What bothers me is that Buddhists have negative views on hallucinogens. When Dalai Lama was asked about the use of hallucinogens for spiritual growth, he replied by saying that they create illusions and that we don't need more illusions as we already have plenty. It should be taken into account that he has no personal experience with hallucinogens. However, nearly all Buddhism practitioners including some that have some personal experience have similar views. Of course, it could be argued that hallucinogens can be used in many different ways and that these people had negative or superficial experiences. Generally, it seems that the negative view on hallucinogens comes from the no intoxication precept that prohibits any kind of intoxication that results in carelessness. It could be also argued that tripping on some hallucinogens does not count as intoxication.
The Buddhist view changed my views on shrooms. I am not sure whether to continues using them or not. Any ideas?
Lots of different flavors of Buddhism out there. If you go to the origins of, for instance, Tibetan Buddhism with it's much more tantric orientation, hallucinogenics were most definitely a component of the practice of the ascetics going back to people like Milarepa for instance. He lived off of "herbs" in the mountains for decades in total darkness and before he began his serious practice was a dark arts sorcerer very familiar with hallucinogenics.
I think Buddhism, like all organized religion, as they became more popular, created rules and boundaries in order for the teaching to the masses. Tibetan Buddhism and it's more secret esoteric practices have remained hidden and are only accessible to monks that reach a very high level of attainment.
Using things like chanting, mantras, breathing techniques and visualization are practices to open gateways in the mind and stir kundalini. No reason why plants would be any more or less extreme. It all depends on HOW you do it and HOW MUCH you use, of course.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
Edited by KauaiOrca (01/01/17 01:47 PM)
|
|