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Repertoire89
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik] 2
#23956771 - 12/25/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Psychedelics are a useful aid in ones spiritual life, as long as they're not abused and one uses them with intent
I dont believe in asceticism or sobriety, moderation is the middle path.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23956857 - 12/25/16 05:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said: I dont believe in asceticism or sobriety, moderation is the middle path.
I couldn't agree more, well said. This is a very important lesson for any human to learn.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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viktor
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Fully agree, the question is, though, what constitutes asceticism.
Some people think of Buddhist ascetics and think that in order to be an ascetic nowadays you have to renounce everything and sleep in a wooden box and only eat lentils.
I think that back in Buddha's time, extreme poverty was the norm, so ascetics didn't actually have to go that far.
An ascetic by Western standards could be just someone who doesn't watch TV, eat fast food or drink booze. Because the social pressures to engage in those things are immense, and for a modern Westerner avoiding them might be as challenging as anything could be for a proto-Buddhist 2,400 years ago.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Repertoire89
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: viktor]
#23957168 - 12/25/16 07:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thats an interesting point
I tend to think of it meaning celibacy, sobriety, veganism and the like
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viktor
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23957406 - 12/25/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said: Thats an interesting point
I tend to think of it meaning celibacy, sobriety, veganism and the like
Sure, but celibacy is easy when all the women are diseased and/or skanky as shit because it's 500 B.C. and there is no dental hygiene much less anything else. Easy to be sober when there are no fridges so all alcohol would be piss-warm. Also easy to be vegan when you're a skinny Indian surrounded by 99% vegans.
I avoid women, booze and tobacco but indulge in food, weed, sleep and caffeine. If I overindulge I just meditate more. Seems to be working as a middle way.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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zzripz
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik] 1
#23957728 - 12/26/16 06:15 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Aik said: I respect Buddhism and consider it the purest religion. I started admiring Buddhism after my multiple experiences with psilocybin. What bothers me is that Buddhists have negative views on hallucinogens. When Dalai Lama was asked about the use of hallucinogens for spiritual growth, he replied by saying that they create illusions and that we don't need more illusions as we already have plenty. It should be taken into account that he has no personal experience with hallucinogens. However, nearly all Buddhism practitioners including some that have some personal experience have similar views. Of course, it could be argued that hallucinogens can be used in many different ways and that these people had negative or superficial experiences. Generally, it seems that the negative view on hallucinogens comes from the no intoxication precept that prohibits any kind of intoxication that results in carelessness. It could be also argued that tripping on some hallucinogens does not count as intoxication.
The Buddhist view changed my views on shrooms. I am not sure whether to continues using them or not. Any ideas?
have you heard of Mike Crowley? he is a great source of info about this and has recently published a book titled Secret Drugs of Buddhism, and at end of this I will link you to a lecture he has done about it. This guy is very friendly, has a facebook, and a while back he sent me a paper which included really interesting stuff. IE it was about how reveals that the god 'Indra' in the Rig Veda is pissed off with the new all-female 'Krishna' cult, because he/'Indra' represents/personifies an old order centralized around the amanita muscaria ,mushrooms whereas the Krisnha women swear allegiance to the dung mushrooms, pslocybin! This of course is all secretly encoded in the script and symbolism of the myths, and this info correlates with what I have learned from the likes of John Allegro and his books including The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
I agree with you that at least on the surface, the Buddhists of all persuasions seem VERY anti psychedelics. I once asked this Zennist why they were against it, and he said they entangled the user up with 'mara'. I looked at the etymology of the term.
I knew already that when a word as the root 'ma' you know it is connected with the female, eg 'ma-ma', 'mam'. That is a very ancient root. And so is typical this mostly male-dominated monastic belief system, Buddhism, which promises eventual release from the 'wheel of birth and death', would warn against the FRUITS of Mother Earth which inspire ecstasy and wisdom!
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: zzripz]
#23958066 - 12/26/16 10:52 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Aik said: I respect Buddhism and consider it the purest religion. I started admiring Buddhism after my multiple experiences with psilocybin. What bothers me is that Buddhists have negative views on hallucinogens. When Dalai Lama was asked about the use of hallucinogens for spiritual growth, he replied by saying that they create illusions and that we don't need more illusions as we already have plenty. It should be taken into account that he has no personal experience with hallucinogens. However, nearly all Buddhism practitioners including some that have some personal experience have similar views. Of course, it could be argued that hallucinogens can be used in many different ways and that these people had negative or superficial experiences. Generally, it seems that the negative view on hallucinogens comes from the no intoxication precept that prohibits any kind of intoxication that results in carelessness. It could be also argued that tripping on some hallucinogens does not count as intoxication.
The Buddhist view changed my views on shrooms. I am not sure whether to continues using them or not. Any ideas?
have you heard of Mike Crowley? he is a great source of info about this and has recently published a book titled Secret Drugs of Buddhism, and at end of this I will link you to a lecture he has done about it. This guy is very friendly, has a facebook, and a while back he sent me a paper which included really interesting stuff. IE it was about how reveals that the god 'Indra' in the Rig Veda is pissed off with the new all-female 'Krishna' cult, because he/'Indra' represents/personifies an old order centralized around the amanita muscaria ,mushrooms whereas the Krisnha women swear allegiance to the dung mushrooms, pslocybin! This of course is all secretly encoded in the script and symbolism of the myths, and this info correlates with what I have learned from the likes of John Allegro and his books including The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
I agree with you that at least on the surface, the Buddhists of all persuasions seem VERY anti psychedelics. I once asked this Zennist why they were against it, and he said they entangled the user up with 'mara'. I looked at the etymology of the term.
I knew already that when a word as the root 'ma' you know it is connected with the female, eg 'ma-ma', 'mam'. That is a very ancient root. And so is typical this mostly male-dominated monastic belief system, Buddhism, which promises eventual release from the 'wheel of birth and death', would warn against the FRUITS of Mother Earth which inspire ecstasy and wisdom!
mara or maya is the buddhist version of "the conventional world devil " (roughly)- but more close to what you might call " a master illusionist " or a tempter... or simply magical illusion. And many believe it literally and many believe it as an allegor/metaphor.
and actually it is the vehicle through which we become enlightened in buddhist practice. shamanism uses this plants and fungus to make this illusion more noticable - but the end point is the same if we talk from terms of experience and not from what we believe in.
it is through mara or maya that Gotama was able to realize the 2 truths.
and buddhism has practices that are pleasureable but they just steer away from things that rely upon looking outside ourselvs for it - the ones they have also cause excessive pleasure because it creates craving and craving is something that makes some one stressed - and sometimes the becomes traps in and of themselves hence why you will never learn the higher meditations unless you have a real teacher who can check you.
it was a different time back then, and not everything is set in stone - in fact nothing is.
Viktor made a great point and I think he is right in terms of yesterdays vs today's ascetics. and zZ Your getting your info from some unconventional places - but im aware of the work - but that myth you posited or story is incorrect and any one familiar with mahayana, hiniyana, and vajriyana and the tipitaka / canon would believe so.
Dont fool yourselfs - psychs have a place! in everything! but its irresponsible to come out and say it openly - you should think it over why and it should be obvious.
the buddhist practitioners who use drugs use them as a test for initiation to see if someone has right discernment and concentration and more before they go on to higher teachings (in some traditions only) - as well as for showing the power of the minds nature/ magical illusion and using it for special meditations...
but frankly they would only use them a handful if not only once r twice in their life - then have no more use for them - because once you have the higher meditations you can unlock the power of illusion to basically make the world your play ground.
So the lesson? Dont talk about it in public, or out loud, or with students until their initiation - and then dont mention it directly afterwards at all - it is taboo - so no one will ever adorn it - or abuse it etc etc.... nothing in excess!
That I know for sure? it happened when aboriginal shamanism and Gotamas teaching (what people now call Buddhism) met when it was being carried to other countries in its early days after gotama's death. So its not technically canon or kosher and is saved for a very special occasion / initiation into the higher mysterious of the mind .
Some people happen upon this teaching in their own life through fortuitous circumstance and right juncture and seeking wisdom while experimenting with a psychedelic - but it is a once in a life time experience - so trying to revisit it or re gain it is folly - it is not that kind of thing to begin with. And yet many people get stuck on this initiatory experience into the primordial nature of mind and then later crave the feeling it brought and forget the lesson/teaching...
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 11:15 AM)
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zzripz
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why is your craving for your Buddhism stuff/ideal/goal/experience not craving...?
Quote:
crave (v.) Look up crave at Dictionary.com Old English crafian "ask, implore, demand by right," from North Germanic *krabojan (source also of Old Norse krefja "to demand," Danish kræve, Swedish kräva); perhaps related to craft in its base sense of "power." Current sense "to long for" is c. 1400, probably through intermediate meaning "to ask very earnestly" (c. 1300). Related: Craved; craving.
Are you not ironically craving not to crave?
Please do not tell me not to talk freely with others about psychedelics etc.
Quote:
Dont fool yourselfs - psychs have a place! in everything! but its irresponsible to come out and say it openly - you should think it over why and it should be obvious.
I am not bound by your religious rules and taboos so I will do as I see fit.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: zzripz]
#23958646 - 12/26/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am not religious nor do I crave to not crave I simply love living, and find comfort and ease in learning about the world around me and in me. having found neither truth or falsehood with my penetrating mind, I am relaxed. I was simply telling you all that I had found otherwise in regards to drugs and the history (current and past) of the multitudes of Buddhist tradition upon my travels and looking into and practicing within Buddhist monasteries. I am bound by no tradition or ritual or belief. Your online searches and reading of books is one thing, and my direct experience another. What seems to bother you about something I had typed? You perceived that I was speaking directly to you when I said Dont talk about psychs to others openly? Oh, Well I'll clarify. I was saying, that is how it is treated in some traditions of Buddhism. I was not talking to you - more so from the point of view of the initiator in a rite where after completing it a monk may excite and want to speak of it but the more senior monk would warn not to speak of it openly, and dismiss it and warn against it if asked by a layman.
I recognize all events as illusion and rest the weary mind, just as it is, in its primordial nature. The unwise in their naivete, craving truth, are beguiled, lost in the jungle of fivefold sensory illusion. · Be aware of the error of fixating on something that is nothing.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 04:20 PM)
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BrendanFlock
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Peace is of the bitter Cosm...which is Incidental ... in the likely Algebra...or 2A = 2B...and then a 2C..which is chemical..in the most of us...
We use chemicals in a vacuum..called our digestion system..which is composed of stomach...esophagus, small intestine...large intestine...then it goes to the liver..or gall bladder..then to the Splean and then before is the
copy of this most formidable work:
Be aware that everything living are manifested by these two energies of Mine; I am the Creator, The sustainer and the destroyer of all worlds.!!
This is^ the problem..because when we do Psychedelics we understand the astronomy of time..which is in Gable..and Gamble..indeed as a Weed it is a Sequitur... So that what we do on drugs is not us? Maybe its an illusion of what we are...and then and there..we know the thing..to be the audible..is the release into real energy...
The question is:
Can psychedelics show us real energy?
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blingbling
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Quote:
MikeTesserect said: life is too short for that much discipline. this is a new scientific era where we can hack our brains with drugs. we are made of drugs and chemicals.
A jounalist once asked salvador dali whether he took drugs to paint his bizarre paintings and his response was priceless. He said something like "I don't take drugs, I am drugs" which I think is a great way of looking at things.
In réponse to the OP, lots of people tend to get into meditation after a concentrated period of psychedelic use. Psychedelics can be too unpredictable, so people tend to move on to meditation which is more disciplined, but I see no reason why you couldn't mix and match as long as you are being safe. I do neither anymore these days
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Repertoire89
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: zzripz]
#23959426 - 12/26/16 09:59 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: why is your craving for your Buddhism stuff/ideal/goal/experience not craving...?
Interestingly enough there is much discourse on this subject in Buddhism / Hinduism
Its largely irrelevant to me, so my explanation may be inadequate, but the idea is that you cross that bridge when you get there, after taking care of other desires you let go of those final attatchments. Looking at the practices of Zen Buddhists may illustrate this cleare, they don't strive for detachment so much as accept their circumstances.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23959473 - 12/26/16 10:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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To the poster above me, and to zz rip.
Abandon the intellect which craves security in what is only a dream, reflection, echo, mirage, magic show, apparition.
That is the praxis , so there is no craving involved - it is a non action - but to the unwise they may fixate on it as if it was something to crave when really it is nothing, the method is to use meditation (jhana consciousness techniques in some schools) or more truly non-meditation to experience all phenomenon as dream consciousness, and fruit is release and achievement and fulfillment and creativity and sponteneity - through this infinite things are accomplished like in an endless perfect lucid dream. - for being like a dream the objective side is debunked and so the subjective side expires allowing the ego to retire - allowing self sprung intrinsic pure presence of the primordially pure mind to shine its stainless rays that uncover countless things allowing samadhi, dakini, siddhis. . Crossing over the ocean of self and other without movement or striving, this feat is already completed - for the spoiled mind confuses this unity with duality - but it is always unified- and so samsara is nirvana and vice versa.
The starting point and the goal coalesce and we find the starting point is the goal. Recognition of the realization is not something we strive for in the way we strive for say the finish line of a race. It is something we naturally relax into even before we realize it.
No agent or actor exists that can set itself up for or ego loss, so we relax into experience regarding it all like a dream and enchantingly watch the display of magical illusion that is our multidimensional phantasmagorical experience unfold in the primordially pure nature of mind. Doing so we fulfill our illusory dual purpose of serving self and others.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 10:50 PM)
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Repertoire89
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You basically used a lot of words to repeat my previous comment
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WhoManBeing
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23959511 - 12/26/16 11:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Repertoire89]
#23959512 - 12/26/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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to Rep^

-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/26/16 11:06 PM)
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WhoManBeing
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: WhoManBeing]
#23959523 - 12/26/16 11:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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Tantrika
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
#23966026 - 12/29/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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As was mentioned previously, Tibetan Buddhism had some historical encounters with the Bon religion of the area, and is somewhat more forgiving to mind altering substances than may be let on.
A couple notable points: "Duddul Dorje discovered a scroll that Padmasambhava's consort was said to have concealed in a cave on the northern bank of a tributary to the Po Tsangpo River. The terma, or revealed treasure-text was entitled Self-Liberation through Hearing of the Great Blissful Land of Pemako. In it, Padmasambhava announced the conditions for opening the hidden-land:"
Quote:
In a future age, armies will invade Tibet from east and west In order to benefit the suffering Tibetans, I, Padmasambhava have prepared the hidden lands. Of the many hidden valleys, the most extraordinary is the great blissful Buddha Realm of Pemako. Just by recalling it for only a moment opens the path to Buddhahood. There is no need to mention the benefit of actually going there... Many kinds of samadhi will arise spontaneously in one's mind... The wisdom channels will open... I, Padmasambhava, and an ocean of siddhas and dakinis as well as peaceful and wrathful deities can all be directly seen...
A marvelous "power grass" grows there; whoever finds and eats this plant, even old men, will become like sixteen-year-old youths... There is a grass called tsakhakun; whoever eats this grass can have visions of various celestial realms and underworlds. There are hundreds of edible fruits And numerous grains growing spontaneously.
(page 453)
"Khamtrul Rinpoche offered vivid accounts of these plants in his manuscript, The Lama's Heart Advice which Dispels All Obstacles:"
Quote:
The magical herb that increases happiness is white in color and tinged with red. Its five flowering buds smell like elephant bile. Its petals are small and curled like an infant child. The magical herb that bestows immortality resembles a red lotus flower tinged with black. Its camphor-like aroma spreads in the wind. It has eight leaves and is shaped like a crimson toad. The magical herb that grants all supreme and mundane siddhis, is a golden flower tinged with red. It exudes a scent of nutmeg. The tips of its six petals are slightly curled; its blue leaves hang upside down like a cuckoo. The magical herb that empowers one to fly through the sky like the wisdom dakini Dorje Pagmo is a blossoming flower like red coral that has been polished with oil. It has an aroma of aloe wood and the pungent taste of cumin. Its three petals resemble the shape of a garuda [a celestial hawk] soaring in the heavens. Its leaves are formed like a peacock with the breasts of lapis lazuli. The magical herb that reveals intrinsic realization is a blue flower shaped like a bell. A single whiff intoxicates the mind with its scent of white sandalwood. Its petals are contoured like a bulbous and shiny seed in the shape of a vajra. Its leaves resemble the plumes of a small light green rooster. This describes the five supreme magical herbs that are found in the Hidden-Land of Pemako. During the day they emit a shower of rainbow light while at night the burn like fire, quavering in dancing light. These herbs contain magical power. They are sacred to this holy land and extremely difficult to find. On the scaramental occasions of the 10th and 25th days of the lunar cycle, pray one-pointedly to Padmasambhava to fulfill...the stages of approach and accomplishment of one's yidam [tutelary deity]. In preparing the tantric substances for appeasing the hosts of assembled dakinis, bind the dharma protectors and eight classes of gods and demons through oaths and commands. Throughout all times, encourage them to persevere in their entrusted tasks. Thereafter, by receiving their blessings and power, one will come to behold these five types of supreme medicinal herbs. Their rays of rainbow-colored light expand over the landscape like a stealthily creeping mouse. Whatever the direction of the wind, these medicinal herbs sway and bend like sharp swords. As they move, their dewlike nectar is flung outward and...their secretions can be collected in an oblong spoon like drops of precious jewels. As one ingests their inner essences, the plants' innate blessing power is actualized and one experience the co-emergence of bliss and emptiness. Physically, one begins to transform into the body of a youthful deva [divinity] and attains immortal life...Pray that all sublime siddhis, both supreme and mundane, be instantly attained--like the sky0delighting dakinis who encircle the world...
(pages 462-463) (both sets of quotations are as they appear in The Heart of the World: A Journey to Tibet's Lost Paradise by Ian Baker.
It is worth noting that Tibetan Buddhism is largely informed by Vajrayana (Tantric) Buddhist traditions, which is a further extension of Mahayana Buddhist traditions, where it became commonplace to claim to have found hidden holy texts revealed by Buddhas or deities, that added additional beliefs to Buddhism in a more traditional sense.
It is also possible to read accounts of Tantric Buddhist masters and mahasiddhas drinking extensive quantities of alcohol, but only really becoming intoxicated by doing so if it is expedient to some aspect of their teaching.
Presumably a series of beliefs regarding plant allies were adapted from Bon into Buddhism for the purposes of more readily converting the populous over to Buddhism, similar to how Tibetan Buddhism has some ties with black magic deities, and in some instances held a practice of maintaining a hidden area in temples/monasteries where an individual would be assigned to effectively keeping local malevolent spirits under control. Buddhism has adapted a cosmology to make itself more acceptable to local populace in other parts of the world as well -- rather than trying to deny the beliefs of citizenry, Buddhism tends to amalgamate other beliefs on the basis that Buddhism proper does not concern itself with their affairs.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Tantrika] 1
#23966931 - 12/29/16 10:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well said, that is some of the things for sure. There is some more out there and a few other substances used as well. Cannabis, Datura, and Fungus just to name 3. I love the way oboriginal spirituality mixes with other traditions once they go through the initial working things out and assimilating period. Especially in mexico and in tibet with psychedelic mystical shamanic practices from the mayans, aztecs, incas, and particularly the huicholes and Bon and into dzogchen and more.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/29/16 11:28 PM)
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Peyote Road
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This turned into a good thread.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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