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OfflineAik
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Buddhism against hallucinogens
    #23940462 - 12/19/16 02:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I respect Buddhism and consider it the purest religion. I started admiring Buddhism after my multiple experiences with psilocybin. What bothers me is that  Buddhists have negative views on hallucinogens. When Dalai Lama was asked about the use of hallucinogens for spiritual growth, he replied by saying that they create illusions and that we don't need more illusions as we already have plenty. It should be taken into account that he has no personal experience with hallucinogens. However, nearly all Buddhism practitioners including some that have some personal experience have similar views. Of course, it could be argued that hallucinogens can be used in many different ways and that these people had negative or superficial experiences. Generally, it seems that the negative view on hallucinogens comes from the no intoxication precept that prohibits any kind of intoxication that results in carelessness. It could be also argued that tripping on some hallucinogens does not count as intoxication.

The Buddhist view changed my views on shrooms. I am not sure whether to continues using them or not. Any ideas?


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:smugjerry:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
    #23940486 - 12/19/16 02:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I like the term psychedelic.  Hallucinogen denotes pure fabrication and illusion.

I never would of thought that order, insight and magnitudes of bliss were at all possible without shamanic allies.  Who knows if it's even a close shot to achieving such states through disciplined sobriety.  Even the Buddhist say it takes countless life times to achieve those states.

I'd rather open the door and take a chance of seeing heaven to leave it shut hoping it will open by some force.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineLRG
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23940627 - 12/19/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The original point of "We already have enough illusions" is well said. I consider them to be fun and dangerous.

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I'd rather open the door and take a chance of seeing heaven to leave it shut hoping it will open by some force.




You have to die. If that's a chance you're willing to take then go for it. Not advising you should.

There is a realm beyond this one, the Divine Realm. Accept that and move on. In my opinion it is completely separate from the idea of "dimensions." It is something else entirely.

I'm not a fan of religions. It takes away the power from yourself. I do not believe it takes lifetimes to achieve enlightened states. All it takes will and determination. I also don't think the Dali Llama is an "enlightened" being. More or less just a wise old man with a lot of conjectures.

If mushrooms help you on your spiritual journey then don't feel obligated to stop because some dogmatic religion said they were bad. I don't take them anymore because I learned all I needed to and moved on. I'm still fascinated by the psychedelic experience, but have turned my ire towards sobriety. That being said I would do an ayahuasca ceremony without a second thought.


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"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes!

"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."


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OfflineAik
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: LRG]
    #23941292 - 12/19/16 06:56 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The thing is, I agree with everything Buddhist teachings say that has to be done in order to increase awareness and understanding. Psychedelics ban is the only thing that stands out and if everything feels right then why would this be an exception. Really fucking annoying tbh.


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:smugjerry:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: LRG]
    #23941302 - 12/19/16 06:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Buddhism isn't perfect; it has much of the same life-denying shit as Abrahamism - this is, after all, how the priests and monks derive their power.

The admonition against intoxication makes no sense if you consider that, when you meditate, the reason why it's enjoyable is that your brain releases the neurotransmitter 5-hydroxytriptamine. This is not fundamentally different to taking a drug, as long as the drug isn't booze/meth/coke/smack.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23941359 - 12/19/16 07:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

If you think "Buddhism" Is against psychedelics or shamanism in general you have probobly only begun to explore the terrain and scope of it.

Gotama Buddha used them while he was an ascetic but renounced them for the fleeting quality and unfixed and dream like temporary revelations.  It is not talked about much at all, but I found out while staying in a monastery that had some old old sutras and discourses of Gotama speaking about it.

On the other hand... Dzogchen, a lineage so to speak of tibetan buddhism and Bon aboriginal shamanism is by far my favorite of Buddhist tradition....Please look into a Book called : Finding Comfort and Ease in Enchantment ....its is the writings of Longchempa Rinpoche and it is the most distilled elixer of truth any psychonaut could hope for in this life time IMHO.  That and some Zen lineages are also quiet not what they seem until you stay long enough in the monastery and pass your initial trials, also one of my favorites.  Even then I love all of them, Hinayana has a special place in my heart too for its strict to the book way, Zen for its pureness and Vajriyana for that oh so psychedelic way of finding the Dharma.

Put simply its not good to flat out come out and say Psychedelics are just fine to take!  And Buddhism is cool with it.... thats just not how it works and is irresponsible because they take into consideration each and every ones individual karma and life conditions and circumstances and so prescribing such a thing with a blanket statement of yes or no can have dire consequences.

Many monks I met in the monastery that truly lived the Way had prior psychedelic usage in their youth.  Although they abandoned them eventually because they learned how to attain the dwellings of Jhana.  Which is the real , real deal.

Oh and the Dali Lama is a spokes person for a part of Buddhist tradition, so it would be like asking a politician if drugs are ok to take!  You see where I am getting at?  They have to be very careful in what they chose to say on such things.  Btw the Dali Lama stays in contact with a few shamans just because it is tradition, but I dont know if he takes it seriously or with heedfulness, but still he seems ok for the most part.  Got me?  If not Ill clarify if you ask.


Edited by The Blind Ass (12/19/16 07:21 PM)


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23942246 - 12/20/16 01:27 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I used to worry about this because of what Meher Baba said (and he claimed to be God so I figured he would know) until on a trip the mushrooms themselves told me that they were alright to take. They explained that they were a part of nature and that I was also a part of nature and it was an alright and natural thing for us to commune in this way. I do not believe mushrooms were created without purpose, nor do I believe they were created for an evil purpose. Even the Bible says that all the natural plant drugs were created for a wholesome purpose.

Mushrooms do create illusions but witnessing the mind's power of illusion can actually help you see the truth. of course religious leaders aren't going to recommend it, there are risks they are not going to recommend anything risky. But in my experience, psychedelics can do amazing things for you and I see no reason not to take advantage of them if you feel so called. They are definitely not for everyone and abusing them or not respecting them will have consequences.

Remember as a psychedelic user you are not required to take them all the time or even often. Just because on that trip I felt the OKness of tripping on mushrooms, I did not interpret that to mean I should just take them whenever. It is a sacred thing to do that should be done with care and prudence and right intent. If you don't feel sure about taking them and wonder if maybe sober meditation would suit you better, then there is nothing wrong with exploring sober meditation. I don't think the mushrooms will get offended if you spend your time bettering yourself in other ways. Some people only need to trip a few times to learn the lessons they need to learn, other people trip throughout their entire lives. Its individual.

Also, while there may be spiritual authorities who are against psychedelics and give valid reasons not to use them, whose say they are the ultimate authority? Mooji is a spiritual teacher who I have a lot of trust in and when asked about ayahuasca he said that he would not say not to do it. He didn't recommend it either and he pointed out some of the drawbacks, but he also said it could have benefits. So he let his followers make their own decision and I respect that. Is the Dalai Lama a higher authority than Mooji? Not in my book.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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OfflineAik
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23942308 - 12/20/16 02:25 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Thank's for clarifying, I will definitely check out the book.


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:smugjerry:


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
    #23942344 - 12/20/16 02:56 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I want that book too.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Offlinelines
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23944542 - 12/20/16 08:18 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

It's not a good idea to use shrooms for the rest of your life. Alan Watts said "once you get the  message, hang up the phone".

Psychedelics can help open a persons mind to certain things; psychedelics aren't necessary for that, there are other methods. However if a person does decide to experiment with psychedelics they should realize that psychedelics are not a long term strategy for mental development. A person is not supposed to be doing drugs their whole life.


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23944591 - 12/20/16 08:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I like the term psychedelic.  Hallucinogen denotes pure fabrication and illusion.







I think Strassman says something similar in Spirit Molecule book, I could be mistaken though, but I have a memory where someone was saying how the term hallucinogen is not proper, I hate the term hallucinogen, sounds like something big brother would say.


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©️


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OfflineAikinator
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: lines]
    #23945103 - 12/21/16 01:59 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Well, that's one way of looking at them. Alan Watts is not the psychedelic guru.
People like Dennis Mckenna support the view that mushrooms are like a mentor and just like with real mentors, one has a continuous relationship with them because they have so much to teach you in ways that a book can't.


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OfflineXero1
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aikinator]
    #23945112 - 12/21/16 02:17 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

There are shortcuts to reach nirvana, but the lessons taught along the journey would not be learned.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Lucis]
    #23945416 - 12/21/16 08:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I've taken these substances and it's only hallucination when it's a bad trip.  There is so much order, design and pure blissful functioning on good trips.

People see hallucinogens as dysfunction.  I see it as the functioning of the bare nude psyche and something post life.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleSatya

Registered: 11/11/15
Posts: 175
Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik] * 1
    #23946093 - 12/21/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I similarly started investigating Buddhism after an initial experience with psilocybin, it goes that way for many.
It's a beautiful religion, it doesn't mean you have to become a buddhist or have the same beliefs as buddhists.

What helped here was to follow the Buddhas most simple teachings to their core, not following interpretations etc.
As far as I'm aware, Buddha hasn't been recorded speaking about psilocybin mushrooms, so anything said about it is probably speculative.

In my opinion they aren't intoxicants, they're temporary purifying agents/medicines, if used correctly.
Really many views that sober people can have are much more toxic than a dose of psilocybin.

Overall, psychedelics can be a compliment to or a distraction from meditation... for someone else to suggest you should or should not, that's up to you alone.
If you're interested in something you have that right, regardless of your other interests - Buddhism or anything.
I don't think there has to be a conflict of interests when you're talking about psychedelics and meditation.

Just bare in mind one of the Buddhas most essential teachings - all things are impermanent.
That includes the experience of a trip and it's temporary effects. (;





Edited by Satya (12/21/16 04:45 PM)


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aikinator]
    #23946322 - 12/21/16 02:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Well, that's one way of looking at them. Alan Watts is not the psychedelic guru.
People like Dennis Mckenna support the view that mushrooms are like a mentor and just like with real mentors, one has a continuous relationship with them because they have so much to teach you in ways that a book can't.




RIght, I agree with the Dennis Mckenna point of view. And that doesn't mean I think you must take mushrooms every week your whole life, how often you use them is individual. I've "hung up the phone" for periods of time in my life when I felt like I wasn't getting anything of value anymore from psychedelics, only to trip again years later and learn a lot.

What helped me understand the role psychedelics could play in one's life a little bit was reading books on plant spirit shamanism. Approaching them as medicine for the mind/body and soul as opposed to short cuts to enlightenment seemed like the best approach for me. It's not just psychedelics that I work with, I have a whole variety of medicinal herbs.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23946810 - 12/21/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:


Mushrooms do create illusions but witnessing the mind's power of illusion can actually help you see the truth.





This is spot on and very Dzogchen like.... and that book - Maya Yoga - Finding Comfort and Ease in Enchantment - translated by Keith Dowman  - will show you what a man who truly lived the classical mystic life and its teachings distilled to its purest elixir for any body to practice and literally behold in their own lives sober or whilst tripping...will find it Indispensable.

If you guys really do get it - It'll make me jump with joy.  Because after about 3 months of using that book as an aid in conjunction with daily and nightly formal meditation ( and meditation in between the formal meditations) I learned while staying in a Zen monastery , allowed for me to finally have break through and cross over while sober :manofapproval:

It was a grueling yet deeply satisfying 3 months, the most disciplined I had ever been in my life and it bore the fruits I had so longed hoped to find in my sober life but could only glimpse in tripping.


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23947890 - 12/22/16 01:41 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I am definitely getting the book.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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OfflineMikeTesserect
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: Aik]
    #23948177 - 12/22/16 06:24 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

life is too short for that much discipline. this is a new scientific era where we can hack our brains with drugs. we are made of drugs and chemicals.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Buddhism against hallucinogens [Re: MikeTesserect]
    #23948806 - 12/22/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MikeTesserect said:
life is too short for that much discipline. this is a new scientific era where we can hack our brains with drugs. we are made of drugs and chemicals.




lmafao ok Kid , Sure.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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