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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind.
    #23933296 - 12/16/16 06:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think the common interpretation of consciousness needs to be revised and reconsidered to apply to all DNA containing organisms from men, to bonobos, to Venus fly traps and viruses.

Following the dictionary definition of consciousness it is 'the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings', which means being aware of things external to one's self. Even a virus experiences consciousness by this definition as it is capable of detecting and attacking cells. The Venus fly trap also expresses consciousness in it's ability to use trigger hairs to count how frequently its been touched to differentiate between raindrops and the feet of a prey insect. Ants also display this form of consciousness in their ability to communicate with stridulation which is the rubbing together of two body parts to produce a sound.

Though I consider all DNA containing organisms as conscious I only consider humans and trained service animals as having a sense of morality, a conscience and an overall sentience in the form of internal conceptualisations and perceptions.

Service animals can be trained to have internal perceptions with training techniques that teach intelligent disobedience.

Quote:

Guide dogs are taught intelligent disobedience in a variety of ways. The most common is to use some level of aversive training methods. For teaching intelligent disobedience in a traffic situation, first the dog is taught how to safely cross a road with their trainer. This is done by stopping at the down curb, waiting for a “Forward” command to go forward then walking straight and directly across the road at a good pace to the opposite up curb. Most schools teach their guide dogs to stop at the up curb, indicating to their handler that they have reached the opposite side of the road successfully.

Once a dog can do this and shows no fear of the traffic, the intelligent disobedience portion is trained.
http://servicedogcentral.org/content/node/422




Another interesting thing to note is research that shows monkey vocal chords are speech ready.

Quote:

We conclude that the inability of macaques and other primates to speak is a reflection not of peripheral vocal tract limitations but of their lack of neural circuitry enabling sophisticated vocal control.

In short, primates have a speech-ready vocal tract but lack a speech-ready brain to take advantage of its latent operating range.
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/12/e1600723.full




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23933369 - 12/16/16 07:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I think the common interpretation of consciousness needs to be revised and reconsidered to apply to all DNA containing organisms from men, to bonobos, to Venus fly traps and viruses. ...







your post has very little connection to your title


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23933427 - 12/16/16 07:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Go on..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23933550 - 12/16/16 08:02 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

not much to make of it, I guess you can call a thread anything you want and write anything at all on or off topic if you want to. No law against it.


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OfflineLRG
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23933575 - 12/16/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

"Once a dog can do this and shows no fear of the traffic, the intelligent disobedience portion is trained."

Have you ever closed your eyes and walked in the middle of a busy road? I have. I wouldn't suggest it. I was on no drugs when I did it, I just went NUTS. WOOOOOOOOOOOOO buddy talk about a eye opener... bro I almost died. That'll make you appreciate life a little more and put more trust in your "I don't know" and not your eyes or own perception. Word to the wise, don't do it.


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"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes!

"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23933606 - 12/16/16 08:23 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

A basic summary would say macaque monkeys have the anatomical capability to produce the sounds of human language but they lack the neuro-circuitry to control the complex muscle actions required to do so, the other part on intelligent disobedience explains how an internal sense of morality(good/bad) is something that can be taught to a dog.

The context of your responses sure do seem to have diminished these past few weeks, it's like they've fallen towards attempts at nullifying new ideas and discussions with off topic smears.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23933769 - 12/16/16 09:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I've been out of town.

but what is the topic?


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OfflineWhoManBeing
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23933782 - 12/16/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

What's the point in defining errors of own understanding to one another?  Where does the OP see a thread as this going?


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Eye was thinking the other day...  ahh, thinking never done me no good.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23933812 - 12/16/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The topic is a thought experiment on how a sense of morality may have evolved in our hominid ancestors to teach them to act selflessly by giving food, nutrients and water to seeds to begin the agricultural practices that brought us into tribal life, aka. the cultivation of plants.

I am leaning towards the idea that perhaps when an animals fight or flight response is effectively reduced by psychotropic drugs like magic mushrooms the animals wouldn't experience an instinctive release of adrenaline. With a reduced fight or flight response an animal in a confronting situation would be able to react with a calmer heart rate and a lower blood pressure which may help them take the time to contrast experiences and make the best decision for their survival.

The way I see it, being able to contrast different experiences to make better survival decisions is the same as being able to create perceptions which is an ability that more than likely leads to the development of a sense of morality over time.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly] * 4
    #23934198 - 12/17/16 01:03 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think you would benefit from some non-materialist perspectives. Evolution is obviously a powerful idea but it doesn't explain a great deal - McKenna put it this way: genetics has the telephone directory and they're saying they understand Los Angeles. How can that be so? It tells you some perspective, about something, something to do with Los Angeles. That's all. What about broken hearts? Enlightenment? Imagination? A beautiful day?

I mean science in general, it's the cornerstone of our civilization but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with understanding life.

Not negating anything you're saying or that you've said but it just seems you could broaden your understanding/consciousness with a fresh perspective - have you listened to many McKenna lectures/talks?


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Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


Edited by beforethedawn (12/17/16 02:52 AM)


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly] * 3
    #23934298 - 12/17/16 02:09 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

How can this forum's single most dogmatic and stubborn hyper-materialist start a thread called "Challenging our preconceived notions"?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: viktor]
    #23934453 - 12/17/16 04:05 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
How can this forum's single most dogmatic and stubborn hyper-materialist start a thread called "Challenging our preconceived notions"?




Free will?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23934454 - 12/17/16 04:06 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I mean science in general, it's the cornerstone of our civilization but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with understanding life.




How can you just ignore science like that?!
The only reason we've come to understand what we do about life is because of science.

Since some people on this forum seem to think consciousness is all there is to the human experience my hope was that maybe someone could broaden their understanding of consciousness to incorporate a distinction between it and a sense of morality, a conscience and sentience.

I've listened to some Terence Mckenna and the only idea that really stuck with me was his 'stoned ape theory', that the properties of magic mushrooms (anxiolytic/sympathomimetic/agonist) likely were involved in the evolution of sentience and the development of a sense of morality in early hominids.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23934458 - 12/17/16 04:08 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23934599 - 12/17/16 06:19 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

well at least take a beginners course in titles,
I thought from the title that there might be an idea or two about
How to challenge a stubborn fixation,
but instead it is a wolf in sheep's clothing.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23934625 - 12/17/16 06:33 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I have challenged and continue to challenge my own beliefs. 

The point was to challenge your own preconceived notions and I think your unrelated commentary is getting old.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23934769 - 12/17/16 08:21 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

so if that were the case, you could have called it
"Challenging Redgreenvines Preconceived Notions"
still, my notions have not been challenged, only my patience.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23935896 - 12/17/16 04:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

It wasn't just for you, it was supposed to be a thread for discussing ideas like the ones I've put forward.

It would be nice if you could help me help you by bringing up substantive discussion but instead your empty comments continue.



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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (12/17/16 06:14 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23936178 - 12/17/16 06:38 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think you would benefit from some non-materialist perspectives.



You may as well suggest I take up Pastafarianism.

Quote:

Evolution is obviously a powerful idea but it doesn't explain a great deal




That does sound ungrateful, evolution explains over 4 billion year of the history of life on Earth.

Quote:

McKenna put it this way: genetics has the telephone directory and they're saying they understand Los Angeles. How can that be so? It tells you some perspective, about something, something to do with Los Angeles. That's all. What about broken hearts? Enlightenment? Imagination? A beautiful day?




Then Terrence Mckenna was wrong, especially given he lived before the 21st century when our understanding of genetics wasn't as good as it is now.

Genetics has the blueprint and the organism
which is why scientists are capable of creating genetically modified organisms such as a glow in the dark jellyfish sheep.
Quote:



http://io9.gizmodo.com/scientists-have-engineered-the-worlds-first-glow-in-th-484319572




The feelings of a broken heart are real, the joy of enlightenment is real, imagination can be brought into reality through action e.g. sculptures, and there is a plethora of beauty in nature throughout the world.

Quote:

I mean science in general, it's the cornerstone of our civilization but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with understanding life.




Science in general has to do with understanding the physical underpinnings that make life work because without that kind of understanding we wouldn't be able to live the lives we do and we would be dying in our thirties like they were 2 centuries ago when humanity didn't have a fine understanding of science.

Quote:


Not negating anything you're saying or that you've said but it just seems you could broaden your understanding/consciousness with a fresh perspective - have you listened to many McKenna lectures/talks?




The first line of this thread is suggesting a fresh perspective for looking at what consciousness is.

Quote:

Sudly said: I think the common interpretation of consciousness needs to be revised and reconsidered to apply to all DNA containing organisms from men, to bonobos, to Venus fly traps and viruses.




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Offlineviktor
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23936283 - 12/17/16 07:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The first line of this thread is suggesting a fresh perspective for looking at what consciousness is.




Which you consistently and stubbornly fail to do, even when presented with fresh perspectives from all sides.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: viktor]
    #23936314 - 12/17/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

In the case of beforethedawn, telling me to be a non-materialist is not a fresh perspective. 

What I've been doing is attempting to shift people's interpretation of the word consciousness to consistently follow the dictionary definition.
Quote:

Consciousness: the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23936375 - 12/17/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

and how many ways are you aware of and responsive to your surroundings


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23936481 - 12/17/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
What I've been doing is attempting to shift people's interpretation of the word consciousness to consistently follow the dictionary definition.
Quote:

Consciousness: the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.







This is what is so ridiculous though.

You completely and totally ignore the 'aware' part of YOUR OWN DEFINITION!

You have absolutely no idea whatsoever if other beings are aware of their surroundings or not.

Responsive, yes. You can see that and measure it. Aware, no.

Can you see the difference? Because, if you can't, no-one here is going to make any sense of what you're talking about.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23936489 - 12/17/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I am aware of and responsive to my surroundings in two separate ways, I am aware of the sensations I feel throughout my body when interacting with my environment and I am aware of my perceptions and my own sense of morality in which I define my beliefs of what constitutes for a good or a bad experience.

You people need to watch the 1990 movie 'Awakenings' with Robbin Williams.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (12/17/16 08:59 PM)


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InvisibleKhancious
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Re: Challenging our preconcieved notions and keeping an open mind. [Re: sudly]
    #23936539 - 12/17/16 09:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
You people need to watch the 1990 movie 'Awakenings' with Robbin Williams.





:happyclaps:


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