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wtfcrazymofo
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Registered: 07/26/15
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ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? 1
#23931525 - 12/16/16 04:44 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Is agar really the be all end all for knocking up grain?
Are spore syringes used primarily for pf tek? How many syringes can you make from one spore print? Do the pros commonly use syringes full of spores for knocking up their grain?
Is agar to grain harder than ms to grain? Do you save money when using agar? Do you save time with ms spore syringe shoots?
Votes accepted from (12/16/16 12:00 PM) to (01/16/17 03:40 AM) You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: wtfcrazymofo] 1
#23931554 - 12/16/16 05:41 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wtfcrazymofo said: Is agar really the be all end all for knocking up grain?
Dramatically reduces contamination risk, allows you to clone pins, enables you to find a clean fast growing, high yielding culture, allows you to keep and re-use a good culture over and over and over. And other benefits too.
Quote:
wtfcrazymofo said:Are spore syringes used primarily for pf tek?
No. Can be used to inoculate grain too. If the syringe is clean it will work with grain. PF Tek seems more forgiving in terms of contamination from spore syringes. Spore Syringes can also start agar grows too.
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wtfcrazymofo said:How many syringes can you make from one spore print?
If it's a dark, thick print, at least 3-4, probably more
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wtfcrazymofo said:Do the pros commonly use syringes full of spores for knocking up their grain?
No. They do, however use spores to inoculate small jars of grain and then find good pins that then go to Agar... Most probably just put spores straight to agar, insure they are contam free, then use the agar to inoculate grain to look for good clones
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wtfcrazymofo said:Is agar to grain harder than ms to grain?
More steps involved to get a good clean culture growing on Agar. MS>grain that contaminates is MUCH harder. "Harder" is hard to define. If you have a contam free syringe, it's easy. That's a bit "if" though.
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wtfcrazymofo said:Do you save money when using agar?
When you find a really good culture, the risk and hassle go way down and yields go way up.
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wtfcrazymofo said:Do you save time with ms spore syringe shoots?
If you have a clean syringe that produces well with MS, it's very easy. Often, though, syringes are not contam free and MS yields are a crapshoot.
Keep in mind, contamination risk is also related to speed. When you use spores, the process is slow. Often, you don't even see the initial start of growth (small white specks) for a week or longer. With a good liquid culture or Liquid inoculant that comes from agar, you get get a fully colonized jar in a week. You see growth all over the jar in a day or two at most. Because the mycellium grow so much faster, they compete better against rival contaminants and win the race to consume the grain. The longer it takes to colonize grain, as in using MS, the higher the risk of contamination.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
Edited by KauaiOrca (12/16/16 06:00 AM)
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Th3Issu3
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: KauaiOrca] 4
#23931637 - 12/16/16 07:34 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I love seeing this everyday.
To be honest, I feel like it all boils down to how far you want to take this hobby.
I went years going ms syringe>grain. I also went years without a flow hood. In that time I had some awesome grows, full canopy's and tub after tub. I did tons of jars and bags and worked my ass off in my SAB. I had contams, everyone does. It was like shooting dice. I just bought more grain and more syringes and trucked forward.
Over last summer I took a break, I suggest everyone who's ever been a slave to there PC to take one a year. This year when I came back at it, I told myself I was going to take it to the next level.
I bought a flowhood. Told myself I was going to get into this agar hype all the older guys and Tc's always swore by. So that's what I did. Got some already mixed potato dextrose agar. The simplest kind I could find. Just add water.
..Now at this time I was so used to blowing through 5-10 syringes a month and having so many contam issues I went out and bought 10 gt syringes and 10 Bplus.
It's been three months after I started working with agar and with my flowhood. I have 9 of each of the needles left. Have had basically no contams and im rocking and rolling at a 100 % contam free rate on all my jars and tubs. I'm saving money on syringes b/c its only taken one drop to make a plate which i clean up then make 4 more plates, then tiger drop into masters then grain to grain. Saving tons of money on grain, and there is less clean up.
Basically for me, It's now a no brainer. Can you go from ms syringe to grain.... Sure, why the fuck not. Will you save time, money, and heartace going to agar first? fuck yeah dude!
It's all boils down to how far you want to take this hobby my friend.
Good luck
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Th3Issu3]
#23931672 - 12/16/16 08:05 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Th3Issu3 said: I love seeing this everyday.
To be honest, I feel like it all boils down to how far you want to take this hobby.
I went years going ms syringe>grain. I also went years without a flow hood. In that time I had some awesome grows, full canopy's and tub after tub. I did tons of jars and bags and worked my ass off in my SAB. I had contams, everyone does. It was like shooting dice. I just bought more grain and more syringes and trucked forward.
Over last summer I took a break, I suggest everyone who's ever been a slave to there PC to take one a year. This year when I came back at it, I told myself I was going to take it to the next level.
I bought a flowhood. Told myself I was going to get into this agar hype all the older guys and Tc's always swore by. So that's what I did. Got some already mixed potato dextrose agar. The simplest kind I could find. Just add water.
..Now at this time I was so used to blowing through 5-10 syringes a month and having so many contam issues I went out and bought 10 gt syringes and 10 Bplus.
It's been three months after I started working with agar and with my flowhood. I have 9 of each of the needles left. Have had basically no contams and im rocking and rolling at a 100 % contam free rate on all my jars and tubs. I'm saving money on syringes b/c its only taken one drop to make a plate which i clean up then make 4 more plates, then tiger drop into masters then grain to grain. Saving tons of money on grain, and there is less clean up.
Basically for me, It's now a no brainer. Can you go from ms syringe to grain.... Sure, why the fuck not. Will you save time, money, and heartace going to agar first? fuck yeah dude!
It's all boils down to how far you want to take this hobby my friend.
Good luck
Good post! Just curious, what prevented you from making your own spore syringes as it seems like you bought a lot of them?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Tiamo
Trust in LITFA




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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#23931674 - 12/16/16 08:07 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Seriously. Save the money, take prints and make your own syringes. It isn't hard. You only need to buy a print/syringe once and you're set for life. I happened to buy a grow kit for 30 bucks and got about 30 so prints out of it. Infinite syringes.
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Th3Issu3
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#23931682 - 12/16/16 08:11 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh, I tried that. Every one was totally bacterial. Thank god i saved some prints tho.
I was running against a clock then. My goal was to get as many tubs done as fast as possible. I thought syringes to grain was it.I had some success with sponsor so i just kept buying them! Boy was i wrong.
Going from already germinates spores on agar to grain is so much fast too. Now I have much clean spawn IDK what to do with it all.
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Tiamo
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Th3Issu3]
#23931684 - 12/16/16 08:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I haven't had any problems with bacteria from my own prints. I've only had problems with moulds, and those were all from prints I've traded on shroomery or reddit.
--------------------
If you have used a Miraculix Psilocybin QTest, could you please share your results? Shipping free Ps. natalensis spore prints to any address in The Netherlands, just
Mush love
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NDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste


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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
#23931688 - 12/16/16 08:16 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wtfcrazymofo said: Is agar really the be all end all for knocking up grain?
IMO it should be, but depends if you are willing to accept a higher amount of failure rate with spores>grain since no syringe is 100% clean. Can spores to grain be used with success? Absolutely but agar is so cheap and easy and clean spawn is our most valuable resource sowhy not. Also it opens up the possibility of consistency via clones/isolations; saving time later by storing cultures and not waiting on spore germination the list goes on.
Quote:
Are spore syringes used primarily for pf tek?
Yes, but some still use them for grain see above. BRF cakes are more forgiving than bulk, also if you loose a cake no big deal you have more. You spawn 5 jars of grain to bulk and one is bad you loose it all.
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How many syringes can you make from one spore print?
10-100
Quote:
Do the pros commonly use syringes full of spores for knocking up their grain?
They usually use agar to ensure they have a clean inoculant
Quote:
Is agar to grain harder than ms to grain?
Agar may be an extra step but is super easy in a SAB, I'm sure a 7 year old could literally do it.
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Do you save money when using agar?
IMO yes. 5 cents a plate to grow countless grows from one single drop of spores, lesswasted time and materials due to projects lost to contams.
Quote:
Do you save time with ms spore syringe shoots?
I'd say not, especially after you have established cultures on agar and don't have to wait on spore germination. Also less re doing projects because they failed.
--------------------
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: NDStepp84]
#23931781 - 12/16/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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do agar to grain dude.
i like analogies so ill go with this one..
agar is like taking your girl/guy to a fancy dinner and a movie at your place later. 99% chance of getting laid.
MS is like just going out to the club. sure you will have fun and maybe even party with a lady or two. but chances are you will be going home alone and will be jerkin it by yourself.
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eosphorus
Labrat


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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: mushboy]
#23931799 - 12/16/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I go multispore to grain, clone a happy boom to agar, then use that agar to make LC, then LC back to grain.
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tripo3
Trippy-Hippo


Registered: 04/02/16
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: eosphorus]
#23931898 - 12/16/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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agar to grain but isolate the strong healthier parts, gives you better chance of less contam also if using s.a.b. I just started using agar and i am highly pleased and would highly recommend using it. I rather use it than anything else and its more cost effective. Its a lot better than doing ms to grain and getting close to find out that you have contams and have to start all over.
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LocN9ne
ɢᄋᄋd ԲᄋЯ ᄁᄋȚᅢΙᄁɢ ᄂᄋ₩ᄂΙԲᄐ



Registered: 04/17/15
Posts: 7,076
Loc: to the brain
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: eosphorus] 1
#23931938 - 12/16/16 10:07 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
eosphorus said: I go multispore to grain, clone a happy boom to agar, then use that agar to make LC, then LC back to grain.
 Start with agar in the first place...
It's 2016, the dark ages are over... Information is BEYOND readily available to anyone who actually wants to know about anything, agar included... While you can shoot spores to grains, Anyone not taking advantage of the benefits of agar is half assing shit and wasting their own time and money... There is no excuse for not using it unless you are doing pf tek, which I also feel is a half assed method considering.
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Q&A US vs. THEM The more I learn, the less I know.
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mushboy
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: LocN9ne]
#23931946 - 12/16/16 10:09 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LocN9ne said:
Quote:
eosphorus said: I go multispore to grain, clone a happy boom to agar, then use that agar to make LC, then LC back to grain.
 Start with agar in the first place...
It's 2016, the dark ages are over... Information is BEYOND readily available to anyone who actually wants to know about anything, agar included... While you can shoot spores to grains, Anyone not taking advantage of the benefits of agar is half assing shit and wasting their own time and money... There is no excuse for not using it unless you are doing pf tek, which I also feel is a half assed method considering.
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Mycolorado
Hobbyist


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 8,529
Loc: Interdimensional Bootcamp
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Tiamo]
#23932035 - 12/16/16 10:33 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tiamo said: Seriously. Save the money, take prints and make your own syringes. It isn't hard. You only need to buy a print/syringe once and you're set for life. I happened to buy a grow kit for 30 bucks and got about 30 so prints out of it. Infinite syringes.
This If printing your own caps, you can keep them very clean (depending on your technique of course).
Control and cleanliness are the bottom line and answer to your question.
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Muskoka
Stranger

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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
#23932537 - 12/16/16 01:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think it's important to note that by definition a spore print is a spore print and a spore syringe is a spore syringe. Technically you can't make solution with a print. You have to make one our the other . Not trying to be a smart ass honestly , just want to make that distinguishable from one another. Take into consideration that when your making a culture on agar with an inoculation loop and a print , that the print visibly stays on the paper so when your making solution and dropping spores into water ,one cap should do a shot glass which makes plenty of solution that can be sucked up with a syringe
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Muskoka]
#23932572 - 12/16/16 02:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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you cant make a solution with a print??
dafaq?? nice first post.
ive made countless syringes from my own prints. not sure what you mean.
now prints just go to agar but wtf?
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Muskoka
Stranger

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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: mushboy]
#23932646 - 12/16/16 02:32 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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K troll . A print is on paper and solution is inside a syringe , just making it distinguishable from one another for novice growers . You can do whatever you want with your print . Just don't transfer it into solution from paper lol.
Edited by Muskoka (12/16/16 02:37 PM)
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Muskoka]
#23932653 - 12/16/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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who prints on paper?
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Mycolorado
Hobbyist


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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: mushboy]
#23932658 - 12/16/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: who prints on paper? 
My thoughts exactly.
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Muskoka
Stranger

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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Mycolorado]
#23932669 - 12/16/16 02:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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who has an inoculation loop for solution? . Cmon guys lol this is getting bad. Don't take my lack of post on this site as inexperience . I made that distinction for novice growers to help out with terminology . I'm not a distinguished mycologists , I don't have a degree but I've read all their books and have too many years of growing experience to put up with this highshool shit. You can print on paper to inoculate agar. You print on paper just to keep your strain in safe keeping for a later date and don't have to carry around a syringe for ppl who travel and our moving location and wanna keep their strain in something other then a syringe
Edited by Muskoka (12/16/16 03:04 PM)
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cronicr



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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Mycolorado]
#23932682 - 12/16/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I print on wax paper lol
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: cronicr]
#23932691 - 12/16/16 02:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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not a bad idea. i always used foil. might try wax paper next time.
thanks gangstar
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Tiamo
Trust in LITFA




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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: mushboy]
#23932703 - 12/16/16 02:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I print on paper.
--------------------
If you have used a Miraculix Psilocybin QTest, could you please share your results? Shipping free Ps. natalensis spore prints to any address in The Netherlands, just
Mush love
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tripo3
Trippy-Hippo


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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Tiamo]
#23932755 - 12/16/16 03:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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ive been thinking about wax paper print when i do foil it dries good but super dry lol
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: tripo3]
#23932762 - 12/16/16 03:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wax paper is great for your own use not so great for trades..it slides off easy
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Mycolorado
Hobbyist


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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: cronicr]
#23932803 - 12/16/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I like foil...folds nice and neat and is great for storage.
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Lobi
Bushido



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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: LocN9ne]
#23932829 - 12/16/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LocN9ne said:
Quote:
eosphorus said: I go multispore to grain, clone a happy boom to agar, then use that agar to make LC, then LC back to grain.
 Start with agar in the first place...
It's 2016, the dark ages are over... Information is BEYOND readily available to anyone who actually wants to know about anything, agar included... While you can shoot spores to grains, Anyone not taking advantage of the benefits of agar is half assing shit and wasting their own time and money... There is no excuse for not using it unless you are doing pf tek, which I also feel is a half assed method considering.
-------------------- The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship. The fellowship of atoms, of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds, of gods and men. The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit. - My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats - - MushroomCultivation Compendium - - Doing Bulk w/ No PC - more about my music
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NDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste


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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Muskoka]
#23932931 - 12/16/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Muskoka said: who has an inoculation loop for solution? . Cmon guys lol this is getting bad. Don't take my lack of post on this site as inexperience . I made that distinction for novice growers to help out with terminology . I'm not a distinguished mycologists , I don't have a degree but I've read all their books and have too many years of growing experience to put up with this highshool shit. You can print on paper to inoculate agar. You print on paper just to keep your strain in safe keeping for a later date and don't have to carry around a syringe for ppl who travel and our moving location and wanna keep their strain in something other then a syringe
When someone wants to make a syringe they scrape some spores off the print into the shot glass to be drawn into the syringe. Most people print on foil, I'd imagine they would come off wax paper like Cron mentioned even easier. In RR's video series there is one on making syringes.
Fruiting is not a sterile process, the cleanest prints possible would be from invitro grows like V tek or pasty's invitro straw. I don't make syringes I just do loop or swab to agar with my prints, but if I order a new strain I get syringes and just do a drop on a plate because syringes are cheaper. Then I end up with several syringes that have less than a half cc used that I trade or give away.
--------------------
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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Th3Issu3
Stranger Danger


Registered: 12/30/14
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: NDStepp84]
#23933458 - 12/16/16 07:40 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Tin foil bro...
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wtfcrazymofo
foil hater



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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: Th3Issu3]
#23934487 - 12/17/16 04:34 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thank you everyone for your votes and answers. You guys are awesome. Agar rules, and is currently winning the in the vote box.
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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eosphorus
Labrat


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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: LocN9ne]
#23935457 - 12/17/16 01:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LocN9ne said:
Quote:
eosphorus said: I go multispore to grain, clone a happy boom to agar, then use that agar to make LC, then LC back to grain.
 Start with agar in the first place...
It's 2016, the dark ages are over... Information is BEYOND readily available to anyone who actually wants to know about anything, agar included... While you can shoot spores to grains, Anyone not taking advantage of the benefits of agar is half assing shit and wasting their own time and money... There is no excuse for not using it unless you are doing pf tek, which I also feel is a half assed method considering.
The amount of agar work I do is perfectly proportional to yours, I don't doubt; I take as much advantage from the methods as I need. My scheme may cost more money and take a little longer to get started, but my logic is this: why isolate a genetic individual on agar before you've seen its product? I make the same selection for strong mycelial growth as you do, I just do so later in my process.
Your method, the commonest method, selects only for a superior mycelial growth habit.
By cloning several prime specimens from the first strong flush of a MS grow, I know I a have good producers. From these individuals I select the one with the strongest mycelial growth on agar, and propagate it.
Once this work is done, I have an established line, which I can maintain until I get bored and neglect it!
There is more than one way to seduce the mushroom, my friend.
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NDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste

Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 4,956
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: eosphorus]
#23935509 - 12/17/16 01:52 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You don't have to isolate to use agar, a couple transfers just to make sure it's clean it is still MS same as a spore shoot except guaranteed clean. Most aren't isolating from spores they are just cleaning and expanding. There are so many strains present you would have to do somewhere around 10 transfers before you even begin to see sectoring usually.
Hardly no one isolates from MS on agar to do a grow, unless they just feel like doing a shit ton of agar work. Most just drop a MS agar culture to grain, grow it out take a few clones and test each one to isolate genetics.
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
Edited by NDStepp84 (12/17/16 02:06 PM)
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: ms syringe shoot Or AGAR to grain? [Re: NDStepp84]
#23935521 - 12/17/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
eosphorus said:
The amount of agar work I do is perfectly proportional to yours, I don't doubt; I take as much advantage from the methods as I need. My scheme may cost more money and take a little longer to get started, but my logic is this: why isolate a genetic individual on agar before you've seen its product? I make the same selection for strong mycelial growth as you do, I just do so later in my process.
Your method, the commonest method, selects only for a superior mycelial growth habit.
By cloning several prime specimens from the first strong flush of a MS grow, I know I a have good producers. From these individuals I select the one with the strongest mycelial growth on agar, and propagate it.
Once this work is done, I have an established line, which I can maintain until I get bored and neglect it!
There is more than one way to seduce the mushroom, my friend.
Agreed. Strong growing MS pins to agar has proven to be a relatively easy way to find a good culture.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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