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LowcountryHunter
Stranger


Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 149
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Spore syringe to grain jars?
#23931200 - 12/15/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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So if I'm starting from syringes purchased from sponsors, can I inoculate grain jars? It seems like all the grain teks start from liquid culture. I've done pftek successfully years ago, and I'd like to jump back in quickly to a monotub ASAP. I've got a pressure cooker and I want to start playing with agar, but I want to get going quick. Should I knock up some pf tek jars with the syringes ive ordered, then: 1) take some to fruit in a pmp while 2) busting some up into sterilized grain in a monotub setup and casing with Verm/coir and 3) doing some agar work with a jar
Or
Go all in on some half gallon Rye berry jars. Can you even inoculate grains with spores instead of liquid culture?
Edited by LowcountryHunter (12/15/16 11:19 PM)
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r.lutece
gave Columbia her wings.


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 745
Loc: ∅
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You can inoculate grain jars via spore syringe, but you shouldn't inoculate grain jars via spore syringe. The reason is that 99% of syringes have at least a small number of contams present, no matter how clean the printmaker was. This is because mushrooms are not grown in a sterile environment. Contams land on the mushrooms, including the gills, and while they don't germinate on the mushroom, they will germinate alongside the cubensis spores when moved to a nutrient source, such as grains.
This is alright for PF tek because the brown rice flour/vermiculite mixture is more resistant to contamination. Grains, on the other hand, are very susceptible to contamination, so spore syringe to grain will result in a high percentage of failure. Keep in mind that there are many other ways to inoculate grain, the best being an agar wedge that has been cleaned up through several transfers to separate the growing mycelium from contaminations such as competitor molds and bacteria.
Instead of a PMP, why don't you go ahead and build a shotgun fruiting chamber? It will probably give you better results while you're fruiting. Pf cakes can be spawned to bulk, but this is also typically recommended against. The bulk action is best reserved for grains. (Also, remember that fully colonized spawns like pf cakes or grain jars are spawned to verm/coir (or another substrate material) and do not usually require a casing layer. (If you want one, leave the coir out; straight verm works better for what the casing is intended for: contam barrier and auxiliary moisture reservoir.)
Finally, definitely do some agar work. You will absolutely not regret it.
-------------------- One goes into an experiment knowing one might fail. But one does not undertake an experiment knowing one HAS failed.
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freespeech
disciple



Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 1,745
Loc: PNW
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: r.lutece] 2
#23931309 - 12/16/16 12:26 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Going spore syringe to grains is fine.
YES, cleaner spawn is better. It does make a big difference and is something we all strive for, no matter what our methods.
YES, agar is great.
BUT there is nothing wrong with making your grain spawn from spore syringes. There is a strong trend of naysaying in the forum right now regarding spores to grain, and it's not unfounded, but IMO it is blown out of proportion. Obviously everyone has their own valid opinions that come from their personal experience (at least, I hope they do if they are commenting on this topic), but as for me personally, I've done tons of grain jars this way and my contamination rate is low when using a syringe of a popular strain from a reputable source (I prefer popular strains simply because the seller goes through them faster and you are more likely to get a fresher syringe than if you order some fringe strain, or a strain like PE that is harder to get spores from.)
YES, there is a more pronounced "luck of the draw" element when going spore syringe to grain. But this is offset by the fact that professionally created spore syringes from a reputable source are generally clean enough to work with.
YES, you will always have some bacteria in your syringe. In my experience, this usually only becomes a real concern when you G2G your grain too far. My initial MS spawn is usually not noticeably contaminated at all. The next generation usually starts to get a little watery where the grain meets the jar glass, but is still quite usable. A third generation is generally not feasible.
YES, you do run the risk of getting a dirtier than average syringe and having your whole project fail. This risk can be offset by purchasing more than one syringe and diversifying your grow. Some sellers have "buy X, get 1 free" deals. Some sellers will throw in a free syringe if you mention you're a shroomery member.
I think that pushing new growers to agar can present an intimidating barrier. And maybe that's not a bad thing, because agar work is something you need to learn how to do to level up your growing skill. But, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing MS grain jars straight from clean-ish spores. Hell, get started with agar, but knock up some grain jars while you're learning the ropes of agar. One syringe is more than enough to do a few grain jars and start your agar plates. It's up to each individual to find their path, and I think that spores to grain is a natural next step after doing BRF tek.
A personal anecdote - I recently purchased a single spore syringe from a reputable source. With this one syringe, I did 10 grain jars. All turned out beautifully with no noticeable contamination. I G2G'd the best-looking four jars into 28 total jars, and spawned the rest. Once the 28 jars were ready, I spawned those too. From this whole process, every single jar was usable. A few of the G2G recipient jars started getting a tiny bit of bacterial wetness in the form of a couple clear droplets against the glass, but it was minor - there was no yellowing, no gross stuff, and no bad smell on spawning. I did a couple small bucket monotubs and some standard mini monotubs from all this, all with bucket tek CVG. They all turned out great, with fine pinsets and solid flushes.
Again, agar is great. Yay agar. But it's not the be-all and end-all, and it's not the only way.
/soapbox
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wtfcrazymofo
foil hater



Registered: 07/26/15
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Colonial alley
Last seen: 12 hours, 3 minutes
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Spore syringes into some freshly pc'ed grains is a shabby way to go IME. It could take up to 2.5 weeks to even see growth. Pc'ed grain jars only got so long of a sterile window of time. You are best to try ms shoots with a strain like GT. Some of the more exotic strains might not do as well like Fiji or pesa. But all ms syringes have the potential to work this way.
OP I think you should ms shoot up some jars, and do A little more agar.
Yeah agarRules(It is the be all end all for me), already got spawn ready to eat whatever you throw it into(rather than waiting for it to germ with whatever else is in your distilled syringe water). I never like to go past 3 xfers when starting from spores because it takes to long and I'd rather take clones. Sometimes I use the 2nd transfer growth plate for grain so I kind of get that ms feel without the bacteria. AGAR is not that hard either. It just shows you everything.
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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Dactylium
Don't touch me I'm sterile


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 696
Last seen: 10 months, 13 days
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: freespeech] 1
#23931516 - 12/16/16 04:25 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah let's get a pressure cooker, a still air box, modded jar lids, spore syringes, gloves, a butane torch or alcohol lamp, grains, coir, verm, a 5 gallon bucket, mod some plastic totes, practice sterile technique, then throw it all out the fuckin window cuz you couldn't be arsed to grow your shit out on some Chinese jello first. No thanks. Use agar or find a new hobby.
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Josex
#cheat_code



Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
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Quote:
LowcountryHunter said: So if I'm starting from syringes purchased from sponsors, can I inoculate grain jars? It seems like all the grain teks start from liquid culture. I've done pftek successfully years ago, and I'd like to jump back in quickly to a monotub ASAP. I've got a pressure cooker and I want to start playing with agar, but I want to get going quick. Should I knock up some pf tek jars with the syringes ive ordered, then: 1) take some to fruit in a pmp while 2) busting some up into sterilized grain in a monotub setup and casing with Verm/coir and 3) doing some agar work with a jar
Or
Go all in on some half gallon Rye berry jars. Can you even inoculate grains with spores instead of liquid culture?
No offense, but if I were you I'd "unlearn" everything you know so far and start reading updated info and teks before you start any project, otherwise your chances of fucking it all up are going to be high. In the meantime, some ol good pf cakes will get you bussy.
From your post it's obvious the knowledge you have comes from outdated info and terrible teks. Honey lc's to grains, pmp setup, "busting some up into sterilized grain in a monotub"... that last one though, idk if I understood it correctly but it sounds really terrible.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Quote:
LowcountryHunter said: So if I'm starting from syringes purchased from sponsors, can I inoculate grain jars? It seems like all the grain teks start from liquid culture. I've done pftek successfully years ago, and I'd like to jump back in quickly to a monotub ASAP. I've got a pressure cooker and I want to start playing with agar, but I want to get going quick. Should I knock up some pf tek jars with the syringes ive ordered, then: 1) take some to fruit in a pmp while 2) busting some up into sterilized grain in a monotub setup and casing with Verm/coir and 3) doing some agar work with a jar
Or
Go all in on some half gallon Rye berry jars. Can you even inoculate grains with spores instead of liquid culture?
I use spore syringes (make them myself so I know they're relatively clean) to inoculate very small jars of grain (RGS) then grab the pins when they show up and move them to agar to clean them and grow a higher potential culture that, once it's clean, I like to turn into a liquid culture, simply because I think it's easy as hell to work with a good, clean LC. LI's with modified blender caps and all that seems like more steps but works just as good.
MS > grain > G2G can work, but it's risky, that's for sure and can generate a lot of wasted time and frustration. I'd go MS > Grain > pins > Agar > LC or LI to grain ... that's a much safer, proven method.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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freespeech
disciple



Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 1,745
Loc: PNW
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: Dactylium] 2
#23932038 - 12/16/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Dactylium said: Use agar or find a new hobby.

I think that's for everyone to decide for themselves, and there's nothing wrong with going another route. Most of us who spend a lot of time on the board are really interested in fungi, and we are going to use and explore the most modern and proven techniques. For those of us, yeah, absolutely we need agar in our toolbelt. If you're fascinated by fungi, and you're going to grow for months or years at a time, hell yeah, dive into this hobby the right way.
But there are others who just want to play around a little bit, grow somewhere between a few ounces and a few pounds of mushrooms, and see how they feel about this hobby then. Maybe they will want to put their growing equipment away for a while after they have grown enough mushrooms to last them a year or five. If that's all you want, IMO the fastest and easiest way to get there is spores to grain to some type of monotub. I didn't say it's the BEST way to get there, but just the fastest and easiest, albeit with more risk of failure involved too.
IMO results are king, not dogma. In the long run, yeah, agar is necessary to reach the best results. But you can certainly get results that are great, and for many people good enough, from spore syringe grain.
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freespeech
disciple



Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 1,745
Loc: PNW
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: Josex]
#23932043 - 12/16/16 10:36 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Josex said:
Quote:
LowcountryHunter said: So if I'm starting from syringes purchased from sponsors, can I inoculate grain jars? It seems like all the grain teks start from liquid culture. I've done pftek successfully years ago, and I'd like to jump back in quickly to a monotub ASAP. I've got a pressure cooker and I want to start playing with agar, but I want to get going quick. Should I knock up some pf tek jars with the syringes ive ordered, then: 1) take some to fruit in a pmp while 2) busting some up into sterilized grain in a monotub setup and casing with Verm/coir and 3) doing some agar work with a jar
Or
Go all in on some half gallon Rye berry jars. Can you even inoculate grains with spores instead of liquid culture?
No offense, but if I were you I'd "unlearn" everything you know so far and start reading updated info and teks before you start any project, otherwise your chances of fucking it all up are going to be high. In the meantime, some ol good pf cakes will get you bussy.
From your post it's obvious the knowledge you have comes from outdated info and terrible teks. Honey lc's to grains, pmp setup, "busting some up into sterilized grain in a monotub"... that last one though, idk if I understood it correctly but it sounds really terrible.
Also +1 to this. OP needs to read up more and probably do BRF tek again for practice before grains IMO. Don't do a PMP. Don't do half gallon grain jars from spore. Yes do agar if that is something you want to do. If you are going to skip agar for now and go spores to grain, do it in quart jars.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: freespeech]
#23932235 - 12/16/16 11:41 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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spores to grain leads to this lots of times..

juuuuuuuuuuuust as pins are coming in. this will happen to you and its heartbreaking. enough to make you go 'aww fuck it' and give up.
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DeadPhan



Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 5,260
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: mushboy]
#23932316 - 12/16/16 12:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: spores to grain leads to this lots of times..

juuuuuuuuuuuust as pins are coming in. this will happen to you and its heartbreaking. enough to make you go 'aww fuck it' and give up.
So this tub was made from grain spawn that was just colonized directly from MS syringe? Does this tub consist of jars that were inoculated by a master that the MS syringe was inoculated with? Because in which case, if so, wouldn't the g2gd jars have contamed first? Just curious. I rarely use any master jars, IE a jar that I directly shot up with syringe, or even transfered agar too. Always g2g with those being masters and then latent unseen contams tend to rear their ugly head in those second generation jars.
Also, is that CVG? And if so, bucket tek or pasteurization?
--------------------
Big Gulps! Alright! Well, See ya later! And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!
Edited by DeadPhan (12/16/16 12:13 PM)
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: DeadPhan]
#23932368 - 12/16/16 12:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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that is ms to grain jars only. i would NEVER g2g with ms.  cvg was bucket tek'd. stayed in the bucket for a few weeks.
that same bucket made other tubs that are contam free so dont go in on that one :p
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DeadPhan



Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 5,260
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: mushboy]
#23932420 - 12/16/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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All my tubs in my galleries were from MS that I g2gd. I just lucked out with decent pinsets. I've since moved onto agar but yet to do a tub with. Past couple years I only had ability to establish outdoor beds. Just getting back around to tubs again and this time from agar.
--------------------
Big Gulps! Alright! Well, See ya later! And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: DeadPhan] 1
#23932428 - 12/16/16 12:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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ok so i checked your gallery and i see some hairy hippies dong and some chick. thanks for that.
just because of that im going to crusade against ms>grain is if it were evil incarnate.
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elquesea
Stranger


Registered: 04/29/17
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Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: mushboy]
#24398798 - 06/12/17 07:17 AM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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LoL I thought it was a joke but I didn't need to see that dong either haha
I have a MS>grain colonizating, I hope it turns out well, time will tell
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afrekcan
Stranger


Registered: 07/12/14
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: Dactylium] 3
#24399043 - 06/12/17 09:41 AM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dactylium said: Use agar or find a new hobby.
You sound like a parrot.
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JohnyAppleSeed
Sage



Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 94
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: afrekcan]
#24399084 - 06/12/17 09:58 AM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's best to start with agar One- to avoid contaminations Two- to isolate a mono culture If you do go straight to grain I'd knock up a few jars to up your chances but you should really consider the agar. I've been really lucky in that all my spore to grain when I started were clean but the difference between my shrooms that were straight from spore and my isolated strains are Stark to say the least. the isolated strains produced way more and larger fruits plus colonized faster. It's a bit more time and work in the beginning but will be worth it in the end.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: afrekcan] 1
#24399091 - 06/12/17 10:01 AM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
afrekcan said:
Quote:
Dactylium said: Use agar or find a new hobby.
You sound like a parrot.

all day.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: mushboy]
#24399093 - 06/12/17 10:02 AM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: ok so i checked your gallery and i see some hairy hippies dong and some chick. thanks for that.
just because of that im going to crusade against ms>grain is if it were evil incarnate.
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jkz
Padawan


Registered: 06/16/13
Posts: 1,910
Loc: Coruscant
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: mushboy]
#24399150 - 06/12/17 10:30 AM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said:
Quote:
afrekcan said:
Quote:
Dactylium said: Use agar or find a new hobby.
You sound like a parrot.

all day.
*squack* do agar *squack* Parrots are beautiful creatures and these guys are right. Don't be an asshole dude. Agar is the way to go if you're actually serious about this hobby. MS to grain is this:  Trich city. And that was innoced in a SAB.
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Faytrow
Stranger

Registered: 02/02/17
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: jkz]
#24399338 - 06/12/17 11:51 AM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is nothing wrong with using spores directly to grain. It DOES have larger contamination risks as there is more time for contams that do exist to take hold, but if you're new to agar (or LC), you could JUST as easily contaminate your jars by sub-par agar practices. I've personally done dozens of spore-to-grain grows with no contam,and only 1 grow that DID contam. If you're trying to learn agar, but want something sooner, just do spore-to-grain and ignore the flame from some of the snobs. Then agar the next ones.
The larger benefits I find to doing agar is the encapsulation that you can have with it. For example, I have a very limited amount of space right now for growing. I have 2 shelves:
1 with grain jars + agar + shoebox sized bulk containers 1 shelf with my fruiting chamber.
If I inject my grains with spores, then I have a bunch of grain jars sitting on my shelf for a month colonizing, which takes up a lot of space. however, if I use agar, I can keep the agar in smaller containers until I have room to move them into a larger grain jar. Then I can keep the fully colonized grain jars until I make a new shoebox, and keep the fully colonized shoebox until I have room in my fruiting chamber.
When I harvest a crop, I remove it from the fruiting chamber, move a new bulk container in, make a new bulk container with grain jars, and new grain jars with the agar. This means I have to wait less time in between harvest.
That's really where I find the biggest advantage to agar. If you have a problem with spore-to-grain contams, agar can be beneficial, but if you can't grow without agar, then agar isn't going to be the deciding factor =/
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afrekcan
Stranger


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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: Faytrow] 1
#24399524 - 06/12/17 01:19 PM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not a fan of MS to grain either, but I don't like to pretend I haven't had success with it. A "hobbyist" can definitely grow themselves a nice personal stash with MS to grain. I guess I don't like to be elitist.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: afrekcan]
#24399564 - 06/12/17 01:40 PM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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haha
doing things the correct way is 'elitist'. ive done plenty of ms to grains. that does not make you a 'hobbyist'. it makes you a noob.
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TheMadHatter420
Trusted Farmer


Registered: 10/12/16
Posts: 12,941
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Re: Spore syringe to grain jars? [Re: mushboy]
#24399898 - 06/12/17 03:30 PM (6 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you do it, do it as a side project and go into it assuming it will fail. THERE WILL BE BACTERIA CONTAMINATION! No getting around that, some will be worse than others. Some will fruit while some will go green.
-------------------- JOIN THE POW WOW
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