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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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The Zeitgeist movement.
#23926810 - 12/14/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm here in Australia and over the past few weeks I've heard about a group called the Zeitgeist movement who are advocating for the implementation of a resource based economy of carbon neutral equality.
From what I've heard at gatherings the concept sounds somewhat like communism in that theoretically it sounds like it could work but in reality expectations don't work out and difficulties arise.
If anyone is interested in the concept of an rbe or at least sustainable development and non-reliance on fossil fuels I wrote up a short piece on my point of view.
Thoughts or opinions?
Quote:
The resource based economy(rbe) idea does sound good but overall I think the most realistic approach to achieving a sort of human paradise is to implement strong sustainability which is a form of management that recognises the impermanence and overall value of natural resources to focus on developing efficient technologies and a society with no reliance on fossil fuels.
 A strong sustainability system follows what's called a nested dependency model which holds the environment as the most important factor in sustainability followed by the society and finally the economy. This is to say that preserving nature is valued more than short term economic gains.
With a well thought out system like strong sustainability the monitoring regulations can be done by following the nested dependency model, what I see as the main issue is getting change and actually implementing a new system which takes a lot of time and effort to do, probably a political movement too e.g. Young Turk, Zeitgeist Movement.
I think a systemic change is what’s really needed and with it comes social change. Trying to upset rich people takes an entire constitutional convention across all 50 states of the US and some serious re-regulating to remove tax loopholes that allow corporations to do such things as store their profits over seas in the Panamas to avoid paying federal taxes which equate to hundreds of millions of dollars for corporations like apple and google. There are definitely a few ways to upset the super rich
There really needs to be upstream political engagement with 2 way communications between regulators and the public BEFORE anything is implemented so that corporations can't apply profiteering agendas without being noticed before it's too late. Even though a systematic change sounds good in theory, in reality a global change is highly unlikely to happen. There are so many different governments and cultures around the world that some would even take offence to the idea, e.g. Saudi Arabia.
So far there are several million people involved in The Young Turks Wolf-Pac movement for a constitutional convention in America. Although it may take a while, in 2 years is the next senate election and the progressives are aiming to win those to start making the changes that need to be done to get to a society that resembles an rbe.
I prefer to focus on the US because Australia tends to follow them when it comes to political ideas e.g. buying war jets. The way I see it change over there means change over here. With a truer democracy the will of the progressive people is more likely to be implemented in the form of sustainable development and renewable technologies which can eventually lead to a more rbe like society.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23926877 - 12/14/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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This thread gives me Ebola
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Morel Guy
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What exactly is resource based economy?
If it is no private property that would suck for reasons:
People disrespect property Not much reason to work anything other than hustling skills
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23927036 - 12/14/16 05:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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A resource based economy is supposed to be one that values sustainability and has no exacerbated costs for goods. This would mean that the middle men who mark up prices would be removed and products could be purchased directly from the manufacturers and growers.
On the further end I think some have also suggested it's something like a settlement where you live off the land but I don't understand the purpose of that interpretation.
I don't think people would have the motivation to do different work for the same pay. Instead I think trying to implement and grow awareness of strong sustainability and the nested dependency model could be beneficial if enough people get to know about it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23927051 - 12/14/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: A resource based economy is supposed to be one that values sustainability and has no exacerbated costs for goods. This would mean that the middle men who mark up prices would be removed and products could be purchased directly from the manufacturers and growers.
On the further end I think some have also suggested it's something like a settlement where you live off the land but I don't understand the purpose of that interpretation.
I don't think people would have the motivation to do different work for the same pay. Instead I think trying to implement and grow awareness of strong sustainability and the nested dependency model could be beneficial if enough people get to know about it.
So it would be like USSR?
Yeah fuck that, fuck communism, and fuck people that push this retarded shit
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Morel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23927052 - 12/14/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Middle men provide service.
A produce auction is middle man and they make little. Yet their are more robust middle services like suppliers. It's usually not logistically possible to buy from the producer.
If a car maker sells cars right at the factory and not the auto dealer, they will just charge the same as the dealer. A car dealer does not make much on new cars anyway, like they do with used. They usually buy used cars at auctions, another middle man dealer.
Not so easy to get ride of stores, another middle man.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23927137 - 12/14/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Middle men usually have profiteering agendas and the video on this page provides a great example of how to change this issue. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2050848594/redefining-italian-luxury-watches
Those in power have the authority to make change but they don't want to change systems because it would reduce their overall profits. Manufacturers are often for the bottom line and not the consumer.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Morel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23927158 - 12/14/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Bottom line matters. I think more competition would make the costumer fair better. This is what modern people in western nations and even eastern fair better. Getting product strait from the producer tends to be third world.
I get that big buisness can be a bummer but small biz can't do what big can.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23927168 - 12/14/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: Bottom line matters. I think more competition would make the costumer fair better. This is what modern people in western nations and even eastern fair better. Getting product strait from the producer tends to be third world.
I get that big buisness can be a bummer but small biz can't do what big can.
Sounds to me like you are some sort of capitalist
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Morel Guy
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There is no philosophy to live life right.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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The Blind Ass
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society at large is a bit of a run away train experiment. Its almost got a mind of its own, regardless of how badly some people want to change it at a large scale. I wonder if/how Artificial Intelligence will fit into the larger schema. This is quite an interesting time we live in. What a time to be alive
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#23927192 - 12/14/16 06:18 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I get that competition is good but it's get to a point where markups are several hundred if not thousand percent more expensive than the manufacturing cost which simply isn't necessary.
I think the point of a resource based economy is one in where the resource value of an item is paid instead of allocated markups.
It's not about socialising profits it's about corporations paying their fair share of taxes. The video in this link is of Bernie Sanders giving some great economic insight and raising a fair point.
Quote:
http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/12/13/bernie-just-blew-trump-voters-minds-two-simple-questions-video/ "I find it interesting that what 3 out of 4 of you are saying is that Trump talked about things like banning all Muslims but you think it'll never happen, so if you don't believe it will ever happen then why do you vote for somebody who in a sense then is lying?" "Over the last 25 years there has been a massive transfer of wealth in the US from the middle class of America to the top 1/10th of 1%. In other words the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top one tenth of 1%. Do you think it's inappropriate to ask those people to pay their fare share of taxes so we can adequately fund medicade and making public colleges and universities tuition free, is that an unfair thing to ask?"
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Morel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23927207 - 12/14/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Blame advertising costs. That is what the major costs of popular products are from.
Fact is people bid higher to get advertisement spots.
I prefer off brand items but sadly even those are brands. I can get by spending $20 a week on food and I eat very well. That doesn't include meat that I raise.
Taxes also cost goods to be much much more.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23927278 - 12/14/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I get that competition is good but it's get to a point where markups are several hundred if not thousand percent more expensive than the manufacturing cost which simply isn't necessary.
I think the point of a resource based economy is one in where the resource value of an item is paid instead of allocated markups.
It's not about socialising profits it's about corporations paying their fair share of taxes. The video in this link is of Bernie Sanders giving some great economic insight and raising a fair point.
Quote:
http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/12/13/bernie-just-blew-trump-voters-minds-two-simple-questions-video/ "I find it interesting that what 3 out of 4 of you are saying is that Trump talked about things like banning all Muslims but you think it'll never happen, so if you don't believe it will ever happen then why do you vote for somebody who in a sense then is lying?" "Over the last 25 years there has been a massive transfer of wealth in the US from the middle class of America to the top 1/10th of 1%. In other words the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top one tenth of 1%. Do you think it's inappropriate to ask those people to pay their fare share of taxes so we can adequately fund medicade and making public colleges and universities tuition free, is that an unfair thing to ask?"
Bernice sanders is retarded
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#23927338 - 12/14/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think taxing the rich would bring in enough benefits to be worth it. Some banks get only pay 5% tax and Bernie is trying to change that to a fair 30% for big business.
The benefits to society outweigh the possible increase to prices. E.g. By paying $100 extra you get $2000 in equivalent value from medicare/government paid tuition and improved government services etc.
Instead of spending half the discretionary budget of the US on war and weapons maybe a portion of it could even be reallocated to education, healthcare of infrastructure which many places in America need. Some places like Flint Michigan don't even have drinkable water because of industrial pollution.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23927387 - 12/14/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I think taxing the rich would bring in enough benefits to be worth it. Some banks get only pay 5% tax and Bernie is trying to change that to a fair 30% for big business.
America has the highest tax rate in the world, but don't let facts get in the way of your little fantasy
Quote:
The benefits to society outweigh the possible increase to prices. E.g. By paying $100 extra you get $2000 in equivalent value from medicare/government paid tuition and improved government services etc.
Keep dreaming...
http://www.jpands.org/vol18no3/huntoon.pdf
Quote:
Instead of spending half the discretionary budget of the US on war and weapons maybe a portion of it could even be reallocated to education, healthcare of infrastructure which many places in America need. Some places like Flint Michigan don't even have drinkable water because of industrial pollution.
Flint doesnt have clean drinking water because the city water all its revenue, corrupt politicians pissed the money away instead of investing it on their water supply.
Again, facts, look them up
***thanks to liberals running our schools we now have ignorant people like this running around and voting
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Morel Guy
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The republicans run the public schools in Ohio. Over half the schools closed due to budget cuts. They frame more kids and grades into schools then they ever have. They have 7th graders with high school kids. They have 5th graders in jr high. They cut the retirement for teachers as well.
Trump didn't pay taxes. He is a scumbag tax dodger.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23927450 - 12/14/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: The republicans run the public schools in Ohio. Over half the schools closed due to budget cuts. They frame more kids and grades into schools then they ever have. They have 7th graders with high school kids. They have 5th graders in jr high. They cut the retirement for teachers as well.
Trump didn't pay taxes. He is a scumbag tax dodger.
Michigan has run by democrats for the last 50 years, it's a shithole, they are finally learning and voted for trump
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Morel Guy
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Grand Rapids is nice and has some headie frick'n smoke!
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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DividedQuantum
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: America has the highest tax rate in the world, but don't let facts get in the way of your little fantasy
I'm sorry, but that's just complete and utter bullshit.
1. Aruba 58.95% 2. Sweden 56.6% 3. Denmark 55.38 4. Holland 52% 5. Belgium 50% 6. Austria 50% 7. Japan 50% 8. United Kingdom 50% 9. Finland 49.2% 10. Ireland 48%
In the United States, the richest of the rich pay 39.6% to the federal government and applicable state taxes, which they ALL have accountants to get out of since we have the most ludicrous tax code in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
Furthermore, taxes in the United States are currently at their lowest rate since the Truman administration.
But I guess because Trump said it, it must be true. 
NO MORE BULLSHIT
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: America has the highest tax rate in the world, but don't let facts get in the way of your little fantasy
I'm sorry, but that's just complete and utter bullshit.
1. Aruba 58.95% 2. Sweden 56.6% 3. Denmark 55.38 4. Holland 52% 5. Belgium 50% 6. Austria 50% 7. Japan 50% 8. United Kingdom 50% 9. Finland 49.2% 10. Ireland 48%
In the United States, the richest of the rich pay 39.6% to the federal government and applicable state taxes, which they ALL have accountants to get out of since we have the most ludicrous tax code in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
Furthermore, taxes in the United States are currently at their lowest rate since the Truman administration.
But I guess because Trump said it, it must be true. 
NO MORE BULLSHIT
We were discussing "corporate tax rates" which yes the US has the highest in the world,
Sorry I forgot liberals have barely second grade reading comprehension
For two, why the fuck should anyone even have to come close to giving over half their income in taxes to govt? That's insulting
Fuck socialism
America just rejected YOUR BULLSHIT
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Morel Guy
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My mom paid almost 50% income tax.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23927488 - 12/14/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: My mom paid almost 50% income tax.
That's disgusting,
Most Americans I know work very hard, the idea we have to give half to govt infuriates me
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DividedQuantum
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As I look back at the thread, it's not at all clear you were talking about the corporate tax. Sudly mentioned income taxes and bank taxes. So, I dunno.
Moreover, I was not advocating that higher tax rates are a good or necessary thing, as you weirdly interpreted. I wasn't listing those rates because I support them; I was listing them to show that we do not in fact have the highest taxes in the world.
That's enough of a waste of my time.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Morel Guy
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That is what she said. She was in a higher tax bracket with no kids at home. Got double taxed because her employer was in another area than her residence.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23927580 - 12/14/16 08:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: That is what she said. She was in a higher tax bracket with no kids at home. Got double taxed because her employer was in another area than her residence.
I've heard of this where live as well, people who come to work habe to pay tax in this state as well as the one they reside in.
Thats total BS, either tax them in one state or the other, how is taxing them in both even remotely fair?
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Morel Guy
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It's not like they get a whole lot of services where they work.
Thank the geniuses that plan for all of us.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23928622 - 12/15/16 08:42 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: It's not like they get a whole lot of services where they work.
Thank the geniuses that plan for all of us.
This is true, they use services where they work And where they reside.
So traveling out of state for work is punished
More proof the govt wants us dependent rather than self sufficient,
Why the fuck do people keep voting for big govt,?
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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Why do people constantly want to piss off the super rich? They gave you jobs, they gave you products, they gave you tax money, they gave you innovation and somehow they should not be left alone.
--------------------
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Morel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Patlal]
#23928769 - 12/15/16 09:53 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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We do not have a lot of choices for what we vote for. We elect people that never fully work in our favor. I am just getting more politically aware and most of it takes research cause the news doesn't share much at all.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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finalexplosion
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
So it would be like USSR?
Yeah fuck that, fuck communism, and fuck people that push this retarded shit
But but.. free money? Single mother victimhood? &&& participation ribbons.
-------------------- The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Why does anyone even respond to that 'hostiletroll'.. I don't know what he's responded but it seems as silly as ever.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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finalexplosion
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Morel Guy said: My mom paid almost 50% income tax.
That's disgusting,
Most Americans I know work very hard, the idea we have to give half to govt infuriates me
If you are familiar with the history of Rome, it is actually amazing what they paid for taxes. 2 days was their taxes. Compare that to the horse shit we have here.
-------------------- The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.
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finalexplosion
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23930035 - 12/15/16 04:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Why does anyone even respond to that 'hostiletroll'.. I don't know what he's responded but it seems as silly as ever.
Probably a case of your low testosterone and iQ. Wait wut?
-------------------- The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.
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pineninja
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Patlal] 1
#23930070 - 12/15/16 04:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: Why do people constantly want to piss off the super rich? They gave you jobs, they gave you products, they gave you tax money, they gave you innovation and somehow they should not be left alone.
No rich equals no poor. That's why.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: pineninja] 2
#23930087 - 12/15/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Because the rich often abuse their power.
Quote:
"Over the last 25 years there has been a massive transfer of wealth in the US from the middle class of America to the top 1/10th of 1%. In other words the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top one tenth of 1%. - Bernie Sanders
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
#23930572 - 12/15/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Because the rich often abuse their power.
Quote:
"Over the last 25 years there has been a massive transfer of wealth in the US from the middle class of America to the top 1/10th of 1%. In other words the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top one tenth of 1%. - Bernie Sanders
Bernice thinks that taxing the rich will make poor people rich
Kindergarteners know better
You and him can go pound sand
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finalexplosion
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
sudly said: Because the rich often abuse their power.
Quote:
"Over the last 25 years there has been a massive transfer of wealth in the US from the middle class of America to the top 1/10th of 1%. In other words the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top one tenth of 1%. - Bernie Sanders
Bernice thinks that taxing the rich will make poor people rich
Kindergarteners know better
You and him can go pound sand
Some skank was ranting about the rich should have a 99% tax. Clearly, she has no understanding of economics.
-------------------- The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.
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millzy


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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Patlal] 1
#23935185 - 12/17/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: Why do people constantly want to piss off the super rich? They gave you jobs, they gave you products, they gave you tax money, they gave you innovation and somehow they should not be left alone.
i love the goods and services that businesses provide. but american businesses do not contribute nearly enough to the society that allows them to exist. while it's true that businesses provide jobs, most of those jobs are are insufficient in providing workers the means to climb the economic ladder, which, by the way, i'll add is the point of working. as far as taxes go, large corporations are taxed on a very small portion of their wealth due to loopholes in our policies that they put there. that's great for business elites, who get to keep that money that would otherwise be taxed, but not so great for everyone else.
to op's point - i believe that we will eventually move past capitalism into something like pure communism. for now though, i think we could have a form of capitalism that prioritizes the planet and a vast majority of its people over the interest of a handful of business elites. what's more, we're going to have to change our priorities or else we could be facing a prolonged period of civil unrest and terror at the global level (providing that we don't utterly ruin the environment along the way).
perhaps more importantly, we would also do well to abandon the assumption that our society requires winners and losers in order to be just. to me, that is a more fundamental and more perplexing problem than our current distribution of wealth. why do we have losers at all? i get why a few people want to hoard all of the money. but the fact that anyone in america - a country with unprecedented wealth - has to worry about having clean water to drink, food to eat and a roof over their heads is absolutely mind blowing. doing away with applying this ridiculous law of the jungle to the most vulnerable human beings in our society would be another huge step in the right direction, and it's a step that we're going to have to eventually take anyway if we are to ever move past capitalism.
and to the doubters who think capitalism will reign forever, i have two words for you: space colonization. capitalism in its current form is just not going to work with establishing entire populations on other worlds within our solar system. it won't even get us off the ground.
Edited by millzy (12/17/16 11:53 AM)
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: millzy]
#23935279 - 12/17/16 12:23 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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millzy said:
Quote:
Patlal said: Why do people constantly want to piss off the super rich? They gave you jobs, they gave you products, they gave you tax money, they gave you innovation and somehow they should not be left alone.
i love the goods and services that businesses provide. but american businesses do not contribute nearly enough to the society that allows them to exist. while it's true that businesses provide jobs, most of those jobs are are insufficient in providing workers the means to climb the economic ladder, which, by the way, i'll add is the point of working. as far as taxes go, large corporations are taxed on a very small portion of their wealth due to loopholes in our policies that they put there. that's great for business elites, who get to keep that money that would otherwise be taxed, but not so great for everyone else.
99.7% of business in America are small or medium sized. They get taxed 35% by the government. The loopholes affect the gigantic corporation which is 0.3%. If you cut the corporate taxxe rate, these smallbusinesses will actually be able to hire the help they desperately need to grow. The owner can't every everything with a handful of employees if he wants to become a bigger business one day. The government is crushing entrepreneurs and business owners.
Quote:
millzy said:
perhaps more importantly, we would also do well to abandon the assumption that our society requires winners and losers in order to be just. to me, that is a more fundamental and more perplexing problem than our current distribution of wealth. why do we have losers at all?
Society doesn't need losers, you're right. Losers happen because some people go after the win. If someone is chasing something and you don't, you're making yourself a loser. Don't blame the guy trying to make his dreams come true. There's no such thing as equality or fairness even when forced upon people.
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Edited by Patlal (12/17/16 01:20 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: millzy]
#23935393 - 12/17/16 01:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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millzy said:
Quote:
Patlal said: Why do people constantly want to piss off the super rich? They gave you jobs, they gave you products, they gave you tax money, they gave you innovation and somehow they should not be left alone.
i love the goods and services that businesses provide. but american businesses do not contribute nearly enough to the society that allows them to exist. while it's true that businesses provide jobs, most of those jobs are are insufficient in providing workers the means to climb the economic ladder, which, by the way, i'll add is the point of working. as far as taxes go, large corporations are taxed on a very small portion of their wealth due to loopholes in our policies that they put there. that's great for business elites, who get to keep that money that would otherwise be taxed, but not so great for everyone else.
to op's point - i believe that we will eventually move past capitalism into something like pure communism. for now though, i think we could have a form of capitalism that prioritizes the planet and a vast majority of its people over the interest of a handful of business elites. what's more, we're going to have to change our priorities or else we could be facing a prolonged period of civil unrest and terror at the global level (providing that we don't utterly ruin the environment along the way).
perhaps more importantly, we would also do well to abandon the assumption that our society requires winners and losers in order to be just. to me, that is a more fundamental and more perplexing problem than our current distribution of wealth. why do we have losers at all? i get why a few people want to hoard all of the money. but the fact that anyone in america - a country with unprecedented wealth - has to worry about having clean water to drink, food to eat and a roof over their heads is absolutely mind blowing. doing away with applying this ridiculous law of the jungle to the most vulnerable human beings in our society would be another huge step in the right direction, and it's a step that we're going to have to eventually take anyway if we are to ever move past capitalism.
and to the doubters who think capitalism will reign forever, i have two words for you: space colonization. capitalism in its current form is just not going to work with establishing entire populations on other worlds within our solar system. it won't even get us off the ground.
"why do we have losers at all?"
Because there's too many people and there's not enough resources around for them to live like they want to.
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Morel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: qman]
#23935866 - 12/17/16 04:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are losers because greedy people hog the good resources. It's hard to be born with very little or nothing when the next guy inherits thousands of acres of land or $200 million.
Even well to do people have almost zero resources if money loses major value. Land and mineral wealth will always control the majority. A lot of that depends on how much other people and countries dump into the market.
It would take invention to get rich if you start poor. Investors or a great education and job opportunities. Lot's of us our born poor genetically and financially.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Patlal] 1
#23935930 - 12/17/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
99.7% of business in America are small or medium sized. They get taxed 35% by the government. The loopholes affect the gigantic corporation which is 0.3%. If you cut the corporate taxxe rate, these smallbusinesses will actually be able to hire the help they desperately need to grow. The owner can't every everything with a handful of employees if he wants to become a bigger business one day. The government is crushing entrepreneurs and business owners.
i'm not against cutting taxes for corporations of any size. but you're just pointing to another facet of the problem. in not paying what they should, large corporations are putting a larger tax burden on smaller ones. and i stand by my point about corporations giving more back to society in general. paying taxes is just one way to give back. a more effective way to give back would be to promote long term job stability, pay higher wages and offer more benefits to workers.
Quote:
Society doesn't need losers, you're right. Losers happen because some people go after the win. If someone is chasing something and you don't, you're making yourself a loser. Don't blame the guy trying to make his dreams come true. There's no such thing as equality or fairness even when forced upon people.
if "trying to make your dreams come true" involves profiting at other peoples' expense, nobody wins. your notion of justice right here - i.e. that in order to win, others must lose - is one of our biggest and most deeply ingrained problems. everyone can get what they want if we work together. and if you can think of any other way to force business elites to treat people under them better than through policies, i'm open to your suggestions. we've allowed business elites to pretty much do whatever they want for a generation now, and it's not working. i highly doubt more of the same will allow us to turn a corner.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: qman]
#23935942 - 12/17/16 04:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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qman said: "why do we have losers at all?"
Because there's too many people and there's not enough resources around for them to live like they want to.
my response to op was that this is more a problem of wealth and priorities, not resources. we have plenty of wealth to throw at all of our problems. it's just that our priorities are completely fucked because all we seem to care about is wealth.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Morel Guy
Stranger


Registered: 01/23/13
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: millzy]
#23935965 - 12/17/16 05:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't have any wealth. Probably never will without winning the lotto. It's that's some very shitty odds.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23935970 - 12/17/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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It'll get better over time. Dont worry your pretty little heads. Were just growing up. Just do your part and were all on the way
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/17/16 05:08 PM)
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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i'm nearly 40 years old.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Morel Guy
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The Republicans want to give me a raise.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
#23935984 - 12/17/16 05:12 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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It takes generations upon generations! its not a fixed thing. It'll just keep going and going till something unexpected happens on the large and wipes us off the planet or if we make it far enough - wipes us clean out of space - and then im sure something else will repeat or come along in another billion kalpas.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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