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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: millzy]
    #23935393 - 12/17/16 01:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Why do people constantly want to piss off the super rich? They gave you jobs, they gave you products, they gave you tax money, they gave you innovation and somehow they should not be left alone.




i love the goods and services that businesses provide. but american businesses do not contribute nearly enough to the society that allows them to exist. while it's true that businesses provide jobs, most of those jobs are are insufficient in providing workers the means to climb the economic ladder, which, by the way, i'll add is the point of working. as far as taxes go, large corporations are taxed on a very small portion of their wealth due to loopholes in our policies that they put there. that's great for business elites, who get to keep that money that would otherwise be taxed, but not so great for everyone else.

to op's point - i believe that we will eventually move past capitalism into something like pure communism. for now though, i think we could have a form of capitalism that prioritizes the planet and a vast majority of its people over the interest of a handful of business elites. what's more, we're going to have to change our priorities or else we could be facing a prolonged period of civil unrest and terror at the global level (providing that we don't utterly ruin the environment along the way).

perhaps more importantly, we would also do well to abandon the assumption that our society requires winners and losers in order to be just. to me, that is a more fundamental and more perplexing problem than our current distribution of wealth. why do we have losers at all? i get why a few people want to hoard all of the money. but the fact that anyone in america - a country with unprecedented wealth - has to worry about having clean water to drink, food to eat and a roof over their heads is absolutely mind blowing. doing away with applying this ridiculous law of the jungle to the most vulnerable human beings in our society would be another huge step in the right direction, and it's a step that we're going to have to eventually take anyway if we are to ever move past capitalism.

and to the doubters who think capitalism will reign forever, i have two words for you: space colonization. capitalism in its current form is just not going to work with establishing entire populations on other worlds within our solar system. it won't even get us off the ground.




"why do we have losers at all?"

Because there's too many people and there's not enough resources around for them to live like they want to.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Registered: 01/23/13
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: qman]
    #23935866 - 12/17/16 04:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

There are losers because greedy people hog the good resources.  It's hard to be born with very little or nothing when the next guy inherits thousands of acres of land or $200 million.

Even well to do people have almost zero resources if money loses major value.  Land and mineral wealth will always control the majority.  A lot of that depends on how much other people and countries dump into the market.

It would take invention to get rich if you start poor.  Investors or a great education and job opportunities.  Lot's of us our born poor genetically and financially.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #23935930 - 12/17/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:

99.7% of business in America are small or medium sized. They get taxed 35% by the government. The loopholes affect the gigantic corporation which is 0.3%. If you cut the corporate taxxe rate, these smallbusinesses will actually be able to hire the help they desperately need to grow. The owner can't every everything with a handful of employees if he wants to become a bigger business one day. The government is crushing entrepreneurs and business owners.




i'm not against cutting taxes for corporations of any size. but you're just pointing to another facet of the problem. in not paying what they should, large corporations are putting a larger tax burden on smaller ones. and i stand by my point about corporations giving more back to society in general. paying taxes is just one way to give back. a more effective way to give back would be to promote long term job stability, pay higher wages and offer more benefits to workers.

Quote:



Society doesn't need losers, you're right. Losers happen because some people go after the win. If someone is chasing something and you don't, you're making yourself a loser. Don't blame the guy trying to make his dreams come true. There's no such thing as equality or fairness even when forced upon people.




if "trying to make your dreams come true" involves profiting at other peoples' expense, nobody wins. your notion of justice right here - i.e. that in order to win, others must lose - is one of our biggest and most deeply ingrained problems. everyone can get what they want if we work together. and if you can think of any other way to force business elites to treat people under them better than through policies, i'm open to your suggestions. we've allowed business elites to pretty much do whatever they want for a generation now, and it's not working. i highly doubt more of the same will allow us to turn a corner.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: qman]
    #23935942 - 12/17/16 04:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"why do we have losers at all?"

Because there's too many people and there's not enough resources around for them to live like they want to.




my response to op was that this is more a problem of wealth and priorities, not resources. we have plenty of wealth to throw at all of our problems. it's just that our priorities are completely fucked because all we seem to care about is wealth.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: millzy]
    #23935965 - 12/17/16 05:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I don't have any wealth.  Probably never will without winning the lotto.  It's that's some very shitty odds.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23935970 - 12/17/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

It'll get better over time.  Dont worry your pretty little heads.  Were just growing up. Just do your part :thumbup: and were all on the way


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (12/17/16 05:08 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23935976 - 12/17/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

i'm nearly 40 years old. :lol:


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Registered: 01/23/13
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Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23935978 - 12/17/16 05:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The Republicans want to give me a raise.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,658
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23935984 - 12/17/16 05:12 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

It takes generations upon generations! its not a fixed thing.  It'll just keep going and going till something unexpected happens on the large and wipes us off the planet or if we make it far enough - wipes us clean out of space - and then im sure something else will repeat or come along in another billion kalpas.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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