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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
The Zeitgeist movement.
    #23926810 - 12/14/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I'm here in Australia and over the past few weeks I've heard about a group called the Zeitgeist movement who are advocating for the implementation of a resource based economy of carbon neutral equality.

From what I've heard at gatherings the concept sounds somewhat like communism in that theoretically it sounds like it could work but in reality expectations don't work out and difficulties arise.

If anyone is interested in the concept of an rbe or at least sustainable development and non-reliance on fossil fuels I wrote up a short piece on my point of view.

Thoughts or opinions?
Quote:

The resource based economy(rbe) idea does sound good but overall I think the most realistic approach to achieving a sort of human paradise is to implement strong sustainability which is a form of management that recognises the impermanence and overall value of natural resources to focus on developing efficient technologies and a society with no reliance on fossil fuels.

A strong sustainability system follows what's called a nested dependency model which holds the environment as the most important factor in sustainability followed by the society and finally the economy. This is to say that preserving nature is valued more than short term economic gains.

With a well thought out system like strong sustainability the monitoring regulations can be done by following the nested dependency model, what I see as the main issue is getting change and actually implementing a new system which takes a lot of time and effort to do, probably a political movement too e.g. Young Turk, Zeitgeist Movement.

I think a systemic change is what’s really needed and with it comes social change.
Trying to upset rich people takes an entire constitutional convention across all 50 states of the US and some serious re-regulating to remove tax loopholes that allow corporations to do such things as store their profits over seas in the Panamas to avoid paying federal taxes which equate to hundreds of millions of dollars for corporations like apple and google.
There are definitely a few ways to upset the super rich

There really needs to be upstream political engagement with 2 way communications between regulators and the public BEFORE anything is implemented so that corporations can't apply profiteering agendas without being noticed before it's too late. Even though a systematic change sounds good in theory, in reality a global change is highly unlikely to happen. There are so many different governments and cultures around the world that some would even take offence to the idea, e.g. Saudi Arabia.

So far there are several million people involved in The Young Turks Wolf-Pac movement for a constitutional convention in America. Although it may take a while, in 2 years is the next senate election and the progressives are aiming to win those to start making the changes that need to be done to get to a society that resembles an rbe.

I prefer to focus on the US because Australia tends to follow them when it comes to political ideas e.g. buying war jets. The way I see it change over there means change over here.
With a truer democracy the will of the progressive people is more likely to be implemented in the form of sustainable development and renewable technologies which can eventually lead to a more rbe like society.





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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
    #23926877 - 12/14/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

This thread gives me Ebola

:carlinorgasm:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23927014 - 12/14/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

What exactly is resource based economy?

If it is no private property that would suck for reasons:

People disrespect property
Not much reason to work anything other than hustling skills


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23927036 - 12/14/16 05:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

A resource based economy is supposed to be one that values sustainability and has no exacerbated costs for goods. This would mean that the middle men who mark up prices would be removed and products could be purchased directly from the manufacturers and growers.

On the further end I think some have also suggested it's something like a settlement where you live off the land but I don't understand the purpose of that interpretation.

I don't think people would have the motivation to do different work for the same pay. Instead I think trying to implement and grow awareness of strong sustainability and the nested dependency model could be beneficial if enough people get to know about it.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
    #23927051 - 12/14/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
A resource based economy is supposed to be one that values sustainability and has no exacerbated costs for goods. This would mean that the middle men who mark up prices would be removed and products could be purchased directly from the manufacturers and growers.

On the further end I think some have also suggested it's something like a settlement where you live off the land but I don't understand the purpose of that interpretation.

I don't think people would have the motivation to do different work for the same pay. Instead I think trying to implement and grow awareness of strong sustainability and the nested dependency model could be beneficial if enough people get to know about it.




So it would be like USSR?

Yeah fuck that, fuck communism, and fuck people that push this retarded shit


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
    #23927052 - 12/14/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Middle men provide service.

A produce auction is middle man and they make little.  Yet their are more robust middle services like suppliers.  It's usually not logistically possible to buy from the producer.

If a car maker sells cars right at the factory and not the auto dealer, they will just charge the same as the dealer.  A car dealer does not make much on new cars anyway, like they do with used.  They usually buy used cars at auctions, another middle man dealer.

Not so easy to get ride of stores, another middle man.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23927137 - 12/14/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Middle men usually have profiteering agendas and the video on this page provides a great example of how to change this issue.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2050848594/redefining-italian-luxury-watches

Those in power have the authority to make change but they don't want to change systems because it would reduce their overall profits.
Manufacturers are often for the bottom line and not the consumer.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
    #23927158 - 12/14/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Bottom line matters.  I think more competition would make the costumer fair better.  This is what modern people in western nations and even eastern fair better.  Getting product strait from the producer tends to be third world. 

I get that big buisness can be a bummer but small biz can't do what big can.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23927168 - 12/14/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Bottom line matters.  I think more competition would make the costumer fair better.  This is what modern people in western nations and even eastern fair better.  Getting product strait from the producer tends to be third world. 

I get that big buisness can be a bummer but small biz can't do what big can.




Sounds to me like you are some sort of capitalist


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23927175 - 12/14/16 06:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

There is no philosophy to live life right.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,660
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23927186 - 12/14/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

society at large is a bit of a run away train experiment.  Its almost got a mind of its own, regardless of how badly some people want to change it at a large scale.  I wonder if/how Artificial Intelligence will fit into the larger schema.  This is quite an interesting time we live in.  What a time to be alive :blush:


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #23927192 - 12/14/16 06:18 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I get that competition is good but it's get to a point where markups are several hundred if not thousand percent more expensive than the manufacturing cost which simply isn't necessary.

I think the point of a resource based economy is one in where the resource value of an item is paid instead of allocated markups.

It's not about socialising profits it's about corporations paying their fair share of taxes.
The video in this link is of Bernie Sanders giving some great economic insight and raising a fair point.
Quote:


http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/12/13/bernie-just-blew-trump-voters-minds-two-simple-questions-video/
"I find it interesting that what 3 out of 4 of you are saying is that Trump talked about things like banning all Muslims but you think it'll never happen, so if you don't believe it will ever happen then why do you vote for somebody who in a sense then is lying?"
"Over the last 25 years there has been a massive transfer of wealth in the US from the middle class of America to the top 1/10th of 1%.
In other words the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top one tenth of 1%.
Do you think it's inappropriate to ask those people to pay their fare share of taxes so we can adequately fund medicade and making public colleges and universities tuition free, is that an unfair thing to ask?"





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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
    #23927207 - 12/14/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Blame advertising costs.  That is what the major costs of popular products are from.

Fact is people bid higher to get advertisement spots.

I prefer off brand items but sadly even those are brands.  I can get by spending $20 a week on food and I eat very well.  That doesn't include meat that I raise.

Taxes also cost goods to be much much more.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
    #23927278 - 12/14/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I get that competition is good but it's get to a point where markups are several hundred if not thousand percent more expensive than the manufacturing cost which simply isn't necessary.

I think the point of a resource based economy is one in where the resource value of an item is paid instead of allocated markups.

It's not about socialising profits it's about corporations paying their fair share of taxes.
The video in this link is of Bernie Sanders giving some great economic insight and raising a fair point.
Quote:


http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/12/13/bernie-just-blew-trump-voters-minds-two-simple-questions-video/
"I find it interesting that what 3 out of 4 of you are saying is that Trump talked about things like banning all Muslims but you think it'll never happen, so if you don't believe it will ever happen then why do you vote for somebody who in a sense then is lying?"
"Over the last 25 years there has been a massive transfer of wealth in the US from the middle class of America to the top 1/10th of 1%.
In other words the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top one tenth of 1%.
Do you think it's inappropriate to ask those people to pay their fare share of taxes so we can adequately fund medicade and making public colleges and universities tuition free, is that an unfair thing to ask?"








Bernice sanders is retarded


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #23927338 - 12/14/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think taxing the rich would bring in enough benefits to be worth it.
Some banks get only pay 5% tax and Bernie is trying to change that to a fair 30% for big business.

The benefits to society outweigh the possible increase to prices.
E.g. By paying $100 extra you get $2000 in equivalent value from medicare/government paid tuition and improved government services etc.

Instead of spending half the discretionary budget of the US on war and weapons maybe a portion of it could even be reallocated to education, healthcare of infrastructure which many places in America need. Some places like Flint Michigan don't even have drinkable water because of industrial pollution.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: sudly]
    #23927387 - 12/14/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think taxing the rich would bring in enough benefits to be worth it.
Some banks get only pay 5% tax and Bernie is trying to change that to a fair 30% for big business.




America has the highest tax rate in the world, but don't let facts get in the way of your little fantasy

Quote:


The benefits to society outweigh the possible increase to prices.
E.g. By paying $100 extra you get $2000 in equivalent value from medicare/government paid tuition and improved government services etc.




Keep dreaming...

http://www.jpands.org/vol18no3/huntoon.pdf

Quote:

Instead of spending half the discretionary budget of the US on war and weapons maybe a portion of it could even be reallocated to education, healthcare of infrastructure which many places in America need. Some places like Flint Michigan don't even have drinkable water because of industrial pollution.




Flint doesnt have clean drinking water because the city water all its revenue, corrupt politicians pissed the money away instead of investing it on their water supply.


Again, facts, look them up

***thanks to liberals running our schools we now have ignorant people like this running around and voting :facepalm:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23927402 - 12/14/16 07:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The republicans run the public schools in Ohio.  Over half the schools closed due to budget cuts.  They frame more kids and grades into schools then they ever have.  They have 7th graders with high school kids.  They have 5th graders in jr high.  They cut the retirement for teachers as well.

Trump didn't pay taxes.  He is a scumbag tax dodger.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23927450 - 12/14/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
The republicans run the public schools in Ohio.  Over half the schools closed due to budget cuts.  They frame more kids and grades into schools then they ever have.  They have 7th graders with high school kids.  They have 5th graders in jr high.  They cut the retirement for teachers as well.

Trump didn't pay taxes.  He is a scumbag tax dodger.




Michigan has run by democrats for the last 50 years, it's a shithole, they are finally learning and voted for trump


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23927455 - 12/14/16 07:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Grand Rapids is nice and has some headie frick'n smoke!


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Zeitgeist movement. [Re: hostileuniverse] * 3
    #23927456 - 12/14/16 07:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
America has the highest tax rate in the world, but don't let facts get in the way of your little fantasy





I'm sorry, but that's just complete and utter bullshit. 


1.  Aruba  58.95%
2.  Sweden  56.6%
3.  Denmark  55.38
4.  Holland 52%
5.  Belgium  50%
6.  Austria  50%
7.  Japan  50%
8.  United Kingdom  50%
9.  Finland  49.2%
10.  Ireland  48%

In the United States, the richest of the rich pay 39.6% to the federal government and applicable state taxes, which they ALL have accountants to get out of since we have the most ludicrous tax code in the world.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates


Furthermore, taxes in the United States are currently at their lowest rate since the Truman administration.

But I guess because Trump said it, it must be true.  :facepalm:


NO MORE BULLSHIT


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