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NightPuma1
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/16
Posts: 310
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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Explain something to me...
#23926026 - 12/14/16 01:24 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've been failing at monotubs for a very long time now. Previously, I had been sterilizing WBS in a PC as per guide instructions and then been inoculating them with a spore syringe as per Frank's "How I get stuff done" guide. My monotubs would always get infected later on and I would fail, regardless of how exact and thoroughly I followed instructions. So I posted a thread about it and everyone jumped on me for using a MS syringe on WBS, saying that my WBS was infected and I needed to use agar to clean up my dirty syringes.
My question is the following: I get my syringes from a very reputable source (name rhymes with Alphster's) which I was sort of under the impression were (typically) very sterile. How is it, that people can use MS syringes in PF Tek with no problem, yet when you go to use those same syringes on WBS suddenly there is issue with contaminants? I'm not talking about my cleanliness technique - I can get 50 out of 50 PF cakes inoculated no problem. But why is it when I use the same syringes on WBS is there is issue with bacteria? If the syringes are in fact dirty then I would see identical bacterial issues with PF cakes no? If they were dirty then the syringe source would have a pretty questionable business right? I just don't understand, unless there is something present in PF cakes that makes them more resistant to contamination that is not present in WBS. Anyone?
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r.lutece
gave Columbia her wings.


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 745
Loc: ∅
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: NightPuma1]
#23926044 - 12/14/16 01:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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BRF/verm is much more resistant to contamination that WBS and other grains. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the reason spores to BRF/verm is standard practice in PF tek, but is much more likely to give you bacterial grains or molds.
Spore syringes are inherently dirty unless the mushrooms were grown in a sealed environment. Contaminants settle on the mushrooms, and while they may not take hold, they can be easily transferred to a spore sprint, and then to the syringe. Trusted vendors are known for having syringes and prints that are likely to contain fewer contaminants, but they will still contain contaminants.
-------------------- One goes into an experiment knowing one might fail. But one does not undertake an experiment knowing one HAS failed.
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enlightenment
alchemist


Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 1,647
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 8 months, 22 days
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: NightPuma1]
#23926070 - 12/14/16 01:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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+
How long do you PC your grain? Try to improve your sterile technique. IMO your problem is the grain preparation / sterilization.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: r.lutece]
#23926080 - 12/14/16 01:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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your source is crap.
i used that guy for years(long time ago no issues) when i got back in i went to that vendor and the spores were insanely dirty and barely colonized a quart jar. HES NOT A VENDOR ANYMORE BRUH!!!
and it is true. ms to grains is more risky. i had the same experience. i did pf cakes mashed up and covered with cvg for years and never had issues.
when i went to grain i failed a ton. it was discouraging. but when i went to agar first and then to grains its like a whole different world.
cakes are a solid mass. it can fight off contams better than loose grains.
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TheMadHatter420
Trusted Farmer


Registered: 10/12/16
Posts: 12,941
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: r.lutece]
#23926093 - 12/14/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You won't get as good results but just make up cakes and crumble into your bulk for your monos. May only get 1 or a couple flushes but it works.
-------------------- JOIN THE POW WOW
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NightPuma1
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/16
Posts: 310
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: r.lutece]
#23926102 - 12/14/16 01:41 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Makes sense now. Boy they should really have Frank take down that tek because I spent many many months of my life trying to do MS to WBS for nothing. Thank you.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Quote:
TheMadHatter420 said: You won't get as good results but just make up cakes and crumble into your bulk for your monos. May only get 1 or a couple flushes but it works.
like i said i did this a lot. more like 1 flush n trash(2nd flushes were nothing) yields were nothing compared to grains. so i made a lot of cakes :p


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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: NightPuma1]
#23926114 - 12/14/16 01:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NightPuma1 said: Makes sense now. Boy they should really have Frank take down that tek because I spent many many months of my life trying to do MS to WBS for nothing. Thank you.
the tek is great and it still works. but as enlightenment pointed out, the grain prep needs to be spot on. otherwise it can be a bacterial farm. im sure franks prep was SPOT ON. also if you read through the entire thread he states ms - grain is risky. chances are he also took the prints himself and was clean about it.. but even so. i take my own prints and one agar plate grew nothing but bacteria. and i was careful as a mofo.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: r.lutece]
#23926237 - 12/14/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
r.lutece said: BRF/verm is much more resistant to contamination that WBS and other grains. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the reason spores to BRF/verm is standard practice in PF tek, but is much more likely to give you bacterial grains or molds.
Some say the rice is just naturally more selective about what grows on it. Not sure if the following point is often made directly, but I reckon a factor is also people not breaking up cakes. If people have a jar of grains which clearly have a slightly dodgy look to them then many will recommend not spawning them, but simply casing the jar and growing as is.
A test for a slightly dodgy looking jar is also to shake it up and see if it recovers, if it is contaminated it is likely it will not recover, and is now gone to waste -but if you had cased it you might have got a worthwhile crop from it. While if the PF tek is followed, with no breaking up of cakes, then you have never "shaken" the jars at all, and they already have lower nutrient levels which will induce fruits without the need to case.
I have never done it but I wonder if you had WBS in a PF jar and injected it in 4 points like a PF cake would it colonise at the same speed, and if never shaken and if you took the lid off and cased as standard would you have the same success rate. People use lower nutrient agar and some find the myc grows faster on it, the theory/idea being that it is reaching out in search of better nutrient sources. So maybe the PF jar will colonise faster for this reason, and once colonised if there was contams in the rice it would not have as big an impact. If the WBS is slower to colonise (remember no shaking) then other contams might get a better foothold. You could always use more inoculation holes. I think 4 holes was really picked as its quite easy to make that pattern of holes on a lid. 5 might well work better but just tricker to mark out.
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TheMadHatter420
Trusted Farmer


Registered: 10/12/16
Posts: 12,941
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: blackout]
#23928146 - 12/15/16 12:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I use 2 parts WHOLE brown rice, NOT BRF, with 1 part verm. I use this for cakes and have started to use it for grain jars and have a few mini mono's going off of this now. Was all done with MS. I even took 3 pints of this and G2G to 12 quart jars that were used to spawn my mini mono's. Just starting to fruit now and seem to be going well. Figured what the fuck takes time to clean up a culture and grow it out on agar.
-------------------- JOIN THE POW WOW
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 9 days
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I made tons of great syringes for grain..lost a lot along the way the key is simply spotting the good ones to expand and tossing the rest.
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Chips
Stranger

Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 32
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: NightPuma1]
#23928268 - 12/15/16 02:36 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NightPuma1 said: I've been failing at monotubs for a very long time now. Previously, I had been sterilizing WBS in a PC as per guide instructions and then been inoculating them with a spore syringe as per Frank's "How I get stuff done" guide. My monotubs would always get infected later on and I would fail, regardless of how exact and thoroughly I followed instructions. So I posted a thread about it and everyone jumped on me for using a MS syringe on WBS, saying that my WBS was infected and I needed to use agar to clean up my dirty syringes.
My question is the following: I get my syringes from a very reputable source (name rhymes with Alphster's) which I was sort of under the impression were (typically) very sterile. How is it, that people can use MS syringes in PF Tek with no problem, yet when you go to use those same syringes on WBS suddenly there is issue with contaminants? I'm not talking about my cleanliness technique - I can get 50 out of 50 PF cakes inoculated no problem. But why is it when I use the same syringes on WBS is there is issue with bacteria? If the syringes are in fact dirty then I would see identical bacterial issues with PF cakes no? If they were dirty then the syringe source would have a pretty questionable business right? I just don't understand, unless there is something present in PF cakes that makes them more resistant to contamination that is not present in WBS. Anyone?
hey man if it makes you feel any better i'm literally in your exact same boat
followed frank's 12 steps, was easy enough to just follow the tek without knowing anything. got about 3 pounds dry over some months and then all of a sudden, tub after tub after tub after tub all turned green before first flush. was so frustrating especially since i thought i was doing everything right
finally learned that agar is a thing and now i'm hoping to have some more mushies before the end of the month
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ichugwindex
Dex



Registered: 06/04/16
Posts: 4,613
Loc: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last seen: 11 months, 2 days
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Quote:
TheMadHatter420 said: You won't get as good results but just make up cakes and crumble into your bulk for your monos. May only get 1 or a couple flushes but it works.
I REALLY want to do this but all the information I find on it is 4-6 years old. Would you happen to have a good link for brf cakes to treys? .
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: ichugwindex]
#23929057 - 12/15/16 11:41 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ichugwindex said:
Quote:
TheMadHatter420 said: You won't get as good results but just make up cakes and crumble into your bulk for your monos. May only get 1 or a couple flushes but it works.
I REALLY want to do this but all the information I find on it is 4-6 years old. Would you happen to have a good link for brf cakes to treys? .
i did this 10 years ago. simple. worked fine. -crumble cakes in trays(i used metal trays. myc can eat threw it i found out) -cover with a coco verm 80/20 mix. cook it whichever way. its coco. load into jars and pc.. whatever -colonizing of tray takes a week or so. not long in a small tray. -fruit once myc is colonized to desired levels.




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ichugwindex
Dex



Registered: 06/04/16
Posts: 4,613
Loc: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last seen: 11 months, 2 days
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: mushboy]
#23929289 - 12/15/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edit. making my own thread sorry for jacking the thread
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
Edited by ichugwindex (12/15/16 01:01 PM)
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: ichugwindex]
#23929436 - 12/15/16 01:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey man, i've found that if you grate the BRF cakes on the finest side of the cheese grate you will have a LARGE pile from 1 small cake.
8 cakes seem enough for a Monotub when you're done grating them, but i put it in a Mini anyway. Fully colonized the Coir in 48 hours, started fruiting in less than 7 days. I think this is very fast, even tho there are alot of inoculation points in finely grated BRF cakes.
Flushes are much better in the Mini than in the SGFC, and the fruits are much bigger. But the fruits in the Mini have been kindof juuuust a little deformed almost all of them, maybe due to some contam, but everything looks healty.
Now im branching out to Agar and WBS but i promise you i have seen potential with BRF and Monotub, i will experiment soon.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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tripo3
Trippy-Hippo


Registered: 04/02/16
Posts: 324
Last seen: 5 years, 5 days
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: Mateja]
#23929641 - 12/15/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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yes you could make a mono using cakes if thats the case but also maybe try a different grain than wbs could work out better (wheat, rye or oats). Also it could just be a sterile technique not only for the syringe use but also could be something in the air or something in the area using to inject, use a s.a.b or flow hood def helps alot.
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tripo3
Trippy-Hippo


Registered: 04/02/16
Posts: 324
Last seen: 5 years, 5 days
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Re: Explain something to me... [Re: tripo3]
#23929686 - 12/15/16 02:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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