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OfflineTheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: MNS]
    #2394910 - 03/02/04 12:09 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>so where does the energy that makes us alive and move go?
-it stays in the body after the body dies. Then all available energy is unlocked during decomposition where it goes to other organisms. It's not like the thing keeping us alive is a pure electricity that just grounds at the point of death, besides do you know how much energy you would have to have to account for 21 gram loss?

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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2395001 - 03/02/04 12:30 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>I read your link Mushmaster ( http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp ) and it is wrong to call this a myth.

-The site at least gives reasonal medical explanations why a body could drop some weight at the moment of death. It is a pretty far illogical leap to cite spirits and ghosts because of this. Here is the results from the 6 experiments, remember that when scientists try to prove a theory they repeat experiments trying to get the same results each time. These results vary so much, they seem to debunk itself.

>"[S]uddenly coincident with death . . . the loss was ascertained to be three-fourths of an ounce." The only time he got 21 grams.

"The weight lost was found to be half an ounce. Then my colleague auscultated the heart and and found it stopped. I tried again and the loss was one ounce and a half and fifty grains." Different measurements taken from the same body at different times.

"My third case showed a weight of half an ounce lost, coincident with death, and an additional loss of one ounce a few minutes later." Different measurements taken form the same body at different times.

"In the fourth case unfortunately our scales were not finely adjusted and there was a good deal of interference by people opposed to our work . . . I regard this test as of no value." Error.

"My fifth case showed a distinct drop in the beam requiring about three-eighths of an ounce which could not be accounted for. This occurred exactly simultaneously with death but peculiarly on bringing the beam up again with weights and later removing them, the beam did not sink back to stay for fully fifteen minutes." There equipment measures drops in weight sometimes 15 minutes after they "happen"

"My sixth and last case was not a fair test. The patient died almost within five minutes after being placed upon the bed and died while I was adjusting the beam." Error.

When you read this page, you will realize the level to which it was debunked.

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Invisible2Experimental
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Registered: 01/15/03
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2395136 - 03/02/04 01:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for all the replies peoples....



"It's not like the thing keeping us alive is a pure electricity that just grounds at the point of death, besides do you know how much energy you would have to have to account for 21 gram loss"


Do you know the weight of energy?

I think its feasable that the flow of energy in us could perhaps weigh SOMETHING... even if its not 21 grams. At the time of death it would make sense to loose slight weight, because the spirit moves on to the astral plane. As far as the movie goes, it was kinda lame and drawn out.... back to the subject though: I think further studies should undergo this topic... if proven, would that be undeniable proof that the physical body has an counterpart? I think so.

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OfflineToad_Stool
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2396703 - 03/02/04 10:47 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

maybe it is the realease of 21 grams of DMT.... wow


--------------------
There's nothing more I'd rather do, than the drug I call you

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Registered: 02/16/04
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2397276 - 03/03/04 05:03 AM (20 years, 30 days ago)

>>-The site at least gives reasonal medical explanations why a body could drop some weight at the moment of death. It is a pretty far illogical leap to cite spirits and ghosts because of this.

What is these reasonable medical explanations? MacDougall had accounted for the loss of bodyweight due to natural reasons.

He is very well aware that half of the six test performed was of little value. Nontheless 3 of the test were interesting and he urges others to take up experiments in order to replicate the phenomena:

"I am aware that a large number of experiments would require to be made before the matter can be proved beyond any possibility of error, but if further and sufficient experimentation proves that there is a loss of substance occurring at death and not accounted for by known channels of loss, the establishment of such a truth cannot fail to be of the utmost importance."

There is, of course, not enough evidence to confirm the phenomena based on these few experiments. Nevertheless I see Dr. MacDougall's experiments as an interesting indication of a phenomena that should have been more thouroghly investigated.

That no such investigation has ever again been performed only shows the cowardice and lack of vision in science. The experiments are somewhat grotesque, admittedly, but I think there would be many volunteers to such an investigation nevertheless.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2397505 - 03/03/04 07:54 AM (20 years, 30 days ago)

>Do you know the weight of energy?
-Energy always has very little mass. 21 grams of energy being released would probably be similar to a bomb being detonated.

>At the time of death it would make sense to loose slight weight, because the spirit moves on to the astral plane.
-Often people on fantasies like that will blame their inability to support an idea becuase 'it's beyond the realm of knowing' or all of the 'properties are metaphysical' You, however seem to think that a spirit has actual physical attributes. Can you offer evidence?

>I think further studies should undergo this topic... if proven, would that be undeniable proof
-Yes, it would be proof only if it was proven. Then again,you have always denied any proof I've had to offer... so I'm starting to doubt there is such a thing as proof undeniable.

>that the physical body has an counterpart? I think so.
-You've struck me as the type of person who would believe everything is connected, a person who would try to see auras in plants and animals, take DMT trips to try to understand these connections. Instead you take paths back to the places you have already been. According to the Christian doctrine, animals don't have souls. Thats what McDougal found out after killing 15 dogs, no weight loss upon death. Is it hard to feel compassion for animals and support animal rights when you don't believe animals have a spirit or a soul?

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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2397571 - 03/03/04 08:11 AM (20 years, 30 days ago)

>What is these reasonable medical explanations? MacDougall had accounted for the loss of bodyweight due to natural reasons.
-MacDougal accounts for the bodyweight drop as the departure of the soul. This is what he set out to prove when he started the experiment. MacDougall tofailed to take into account the sudden rise in body temperature at death when the blood stops being air-cooled via its circulation through the lungs. The sweating and moisture evaporation caused by this rise in body temperature would account both for the drop in the men's weight and the dogs' failure to register one.

>That no such investigation has ever again been performed only shows the cowardice and lack of vision in science.
-You think so? I could go on about all the things science has accomplished since 1946, instead I'm only going to remind you of opposition groups of certain scientific studies such as stem-cell research. If you believe in this why don't you carry out a study? If I were doing this experiment, I'd put the dying people in a glass box so that no mass could escape the scale upon death. Of course, people will find proof for things they already believe... and I wouldn't be suprised in you ending up in The New York Times claiming to capture a soul in a box, after noticing no weight had loss upon the death of a subject.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2397609 - 03/03/04 08:23 AM (20 years, 30 days ago)

We can of course not offer any evidence of the spirits physical nature. We can only assume. A way out is as you say to conclude that this is beyond the realm of present knowledge. "There is infinitely more to matter than we can conceive of" -David Bohm. The life-force, the Ki, is energy. Energy is mass (E=mc2). But the formula of Einstein may have modifications for more subtle energy forms, blablablah... this is fumbling in the dark, although it may be POSSIBLE. First reliable evidence must be gathered, THEN we can beging theorizing. By the way, if you are to plow these frontiers of science, thinking within the present paradigm will get you nowhere. Therefore we must be creative and dearing in our inquiries.

As for the dogs; if humans have souls, so do other lifeforms. The question here is the development of the soul. A higher being, such as a human, may have more energy located in the "spiritual realm". A dog may have some "spiritual weight" but not enough to measure.

Everything is possible :biggrin:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2400567 - 03/03/04 09:49 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

  "A dog may have some "spiritual weight" but not enough to measure"

this is similar to what I was going to reply to ShroomHermit... How are you comparing the dogs to humans? You went totally off subject with a cheap argument that has no bearing on the discussion. As far as proof? I have no proof except my own experience which cannot be demonstrated or reconstreucted to suit your scientific tests and comprehension of the supernatural, so in terms of debating tactics, you take the winning "cup", but for those beleivers out there, you take the water which fills the cup and gives it a purpose.  :mushroom2: :spliff:

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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: 21 Grams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2403176 - 03/04/04 02:46 PM (20 years, 29 days ago)

>How are you comparing the dogs to humans? You went totally off subject with a cheap argument that has no bearing on the discussion.
-It has ABSOLUTE relevance to the subject that! We are talking about MacDougal's experiments, the same experiments that coined "21 grams" and inspired you to create this thread. Why am I comparing dogs to humans? Because thats what MacDougal did in his experiments; compare dying humans to dying dogs. The humans lost weight at death but when the dogs died "the results were uniformly negative, no loss of weight at death." Claiming that dogs have spirit, just not enough to show up on a scale, is just the kind of excuse I'd expect someone to make up in desperation. Keep in mind there is a totally rational medical explanation involving the different respiratory mechanics between humans and dogs that account for the different observations at death between the two groups.

>As far as proof? I have no proof except my own experience which cannot be demonstrated or reconstreucted to suit your scientific tests and comprehension of the supernatural, so in terms of debating tactics, you take the winning "cup", but for those beleivers out there, you take the water which fills the cup and gives it a purpose.
-I'm getting tired of watching you resort to this technique everytime you find yourself on the loosing side of an argument. After all, you were the one who said the results of this study "would be proof that there really is some sort of astral body holding our conciousness togethor" when you created this thread. Now you are trying to support your ideas by saying it's unprovable... WTF!

"Swami, your always looking for a way to "prove" the unknown, and thats exactly what can't be done. Humans can't prove anything beyond what science can measure. You've won in battle proving that skeptics are right and the beleivers have no proof, but thats exactly it: These things are real to those who truly think they are, and no matter how crazy or wrong you think they are, they are right in the context of thier own mind, and what bearings they put on reality, and no science test or swami challenge can prove that. give it up!"

"As for what proof or backup I have for this veiwpoint: none."

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