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OfflinePsilocybernator
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The chemistry of psilocybin
    #23921631 - 12/13/16 03:34 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Hi Shroomerites!

Just wanted to talk about something that's been intriguing me lately, specifically the chemistry of psilocybin.

We all know that psilocybin is 4PO-DMT and psilocin, the active chemical is 4HO-DMT

Now psilocin is structurally similar to DMT, which basically means that, what the psilocybin mushroom is, is an orally active DMT source, essentialy.

This means that whenever someone ingests psilocybin they are basically ingesting DMT.

DMT!The most powerful psychedelic known to man! The Spirit Molecule! :eek: 
I think that that fact is absolutely mind blowing. The fact that a humble fungus contains such powerful alkaliods is simply amazing.

I also think that this might be part of the reason why some people have horrific experiences with mushrooms. They are not fully aware of what it is they are undertaking. They just think"Oh I'll just eat these shrooms, it'll be great." Mushrooms have a strange charachter to them. At low doses, they can be enjoyed in a recreational setting( And this is what most people do), but up the dosage a bit, and things get real intense real quick. I think this is what trips people up. They underestimate the mushroom. That never ends well lol.:grin:

People need to be aware of that they are ingesting a powerful psychedelic when they take mushrooms. And I think a certain level of reverence, even fear is more than approriate.:grin:

Anyway, what are your thoughts?


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Offlinepsilosalvia
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: Psilocybernator]
    #23921658 - 12/13/16 04:10 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

you mixed it all up man.
that's not how it works.
the fact that psilocybin is a tryptamine does not mean that it's DMT.


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        “Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.” -Edward Teach.


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InvisibleZacksJourney
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: psilosalvia] * 1
    #23921674 - 12/13/16 04:27 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

When talking about "DMT" we refer to n,n-dmt.
4ho-dmt is different. Same as 5-meo-dmt is different, and many more.

Quoting from a Qoura answer (because I'm not a chemist):

"The addition of a functional group, even a tiny one like the hydroxyl on 4-HO-DMT, can and will cause huge changes in the molecule's solubility, metabolism and receptor binding.  Receptors are very specific in their shape and are 'built' to react to very specific ligands"

:shrug:


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OfflinePsilocybernator
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: ZacksJourney]
    #23921763 - 12/13/16 06:17 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psilosalvia said:
you mixed it all up man.
that's not how it works.
the fact that psilocybin is a tryptamine does not mean that it's DMT.



Quote:

ZacksJourney said:
When talking about "DMT" we refer to n,n-dmt.
4ho-dmt is different. Same as 5-meo-dmt is different, and many more.

Quoting from a Qoura answer (because I'm not a chemist):

"The addition of a functional group, even a tiny one like the hydroxyl on 4-HO-DMT, can and will cause huge changes in the molecule's solubility, metabolism and receptor binding.  Receptors are very specific in their shape and are 'built' to react to very specific ligands"

:shrug:



Thank you both for those replies. I feel like I have to clear something up, though. I do not think that psilocin and DMT are the same thing. There are obviously different in their chemistry as well as their effects.

I don't think it can be denied, though that both of these compuonds are immensely powerful, even if the subjective effects, pharmacology etc. are slightly different.


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All posts by this user are fictional and are for entertainment purposes only.

“You don’t want to become so open-minded that the wind can whistle between your ears.”
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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: ZacksJourney]
    #23921769 - 12/13/16 06:23 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly OP!
DMT has a wide array of methods of consumption, DMT is DMT in my opinion, smoked or orally ingested. Mushrooms are a form of oral DMT, in fact my favorite. Smoked DMT and Ayahuasca are overhyped, people hype them up because these people actually take proper doses of the medicine for breakthrough experiences. If everyone took 5g of mushrooms they'd be hyped too, you can get the EXACT same benefits as ayahuasca from a proper mushroom trip.

Taking pure psilocin(4-Aco-DMT)is also very relatable to an oral DMT experience.

Smoked DMT is un-natural in the sense it wouldn't be here without humans, just like hash, it's a concentrated form - it's not Nature's intended way of consuming DMT and usually is less used for medicine and more so for curiosity and exploration in the western world, though it can be a powerful medicine at the right time and used properly - as it's so overwhelmingly powerful it leaves you with more questions than insight usually. Kind of like how a dab would effect somebody that doesn't smoke, they would probably have an enjoyable experience off a couple hits of flower, but if they take a dab it could be too overwhelming to even enjoy or understand, that's kind of what DMT is like, some people enjoy the overwhelming intensity, others prefer a more relaxed session using the skills and fine tuning of their psyche to explore the realms of mind .

In terms of ego death, DMT is like being shot with a pistol between the eyes, oral DMT you can swim to states of ego loss from shallow waters, or in high doses you are guided lovingly to your death. DMT never takes you away lovingly, its always a violent and intense death. It's definitely worth a try though.

If you're one to look for longer drawn out journeys with profound insight oral is the way to go


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


Edited by Eclipse3130 (12/13/16 06:43 AM)


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Offlinepsilosalvia
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: Psilocybernator]
    #23921773 - 12/13/16 06:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

They come from the same family(tryptamines) but.. you know :smile: .

natural occuring DMT will be - N,N-DMT , 5-MeO-DMT . maybe others that I've yet to acknowledge.

I agree with you that people need to respect mushrooms more, and to read A LOT before even thinking about eating some. though fear isn't the way to tell yourself to take caution with dosage, knowledge and common sense is.

like Elvis once said... ONLY FOOLS RUSH IN. I've been burnt more than a couple of times for being not properly educated on the matter.

OH, AND WELCOME TO THE SHROOMERY BROTHER!


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        “Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.” -Edward Teach.


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Offlinepsilosalvia
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23921775 - 12/13/16 06:34 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Eclipse3130 said:
Exactly OP!
DMT has a wide array of methods of consumption, DMT is DMT in my opinion, smoked or orally ingested. Mushrooms are a form of oral DMT, in fact my favorite. Smoked DMT and Ayahuasca are overhyped, people hype them up because these people actually take proper doses of the medicine for breakthrough experiences. If everyone took 5g of mushrooms they'd be hyped too, you can get the EXACT same benefits as ayahuasca from a proper mushroom trip.

Taking pure psilocin(4-Aco-DMT)is also very relatable to an oral DMT experience.

Smoked DMT is un-natural in the sense it wouldn't be here without humans, just like hash, it's a concentrated form - it's not Nature's intended way of consuming DMT and usually is less used for medicine and more so for curiosity and exploration in the western world, though it can be a powerful medicine at the right time and used properly - as it's so overwhelmingly powerful it leaves you with more questions than insight usually. Kind of like how a dab would effect somebody that doesn't smoke, they would probably have an enjoyable experience off a couple hits of flower, but if they take a dab it could be too overwhelming to even enjoy or understand, that's kind of what DMT is like. It's definitely worth a try though.




I think that 4-AcO-DMT and Psilocin are different.
maybe it metabolizes into Psilocin but the effects are different.

like ALD-52 to LSD which maybe degrades back to LSD after taken but have different effects.

If I'm wrong I would love to get an explanation


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        “Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.” -Edward Teach.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: psilosalvia] * 1
    #23921786 - 12/13/16 06:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

In terms of ingesting pure forms yes, synthetic 4-HO-DMT is a more manic, chaotic experience comparatively to 4-Aco-DMT. Similarly how LSD is to ALD-52. But few people have access to pure Psilocin, so in this case 4-Aco-DMT is our most used and close bet, though not entirely the same as synthetic 4-HO-DMT, it's close.

ALD is both active on its own as well as metabolizing to LSD25 after ingestion, I believe the effects are altered because of an activity in the BBB before full metabolism, as well as the acetyl group acting as a slow release for the LSD, none the less the drug has effects entirely of its own separate from LSD as well as eventually metabolizing into the mother compound at some point. Same goes for 4-Aco-DMT



--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


Edited by Eclipse3130 (12/13/16 07:04 AM)


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: psilosalvia]
    #23922108 - 12/13/16 10:07 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psilosalvia said:
you mixed it all up man.
that's not how it works.
the fact that psilocybin is a tryptamine does not mean that it's DMT.




I think you're the one getting things mixed up. It's not about it being a tryptamine.

Psilocin is just DMT with an oxygen atom attached to it, it's literally DMT just with something added and it is ingested instead of smoked or vaporized which is obviously why it has different effects from smoked DMT.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23922127 - 12/13/16 10:11 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Btw people the "DMT" in the psilocin molecule is still N-N-DMT...


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Offlinepsilosalvia
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23922389 - 12/13/16 11:39 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
Quote:

psilosalvia said:
you mixed it all up man.
that's not how it works.
the fact that psilocybin is a tryptamine does not mean that it's DMT.




I think you're the one getting things mixed up. It's not about it being a tryptamine.

Psilocin is just DMT with an oxygen atom attached to it, it's literally DMT just with something added and it is ingested instead of smoked or vaporized which is obviously why it has different effects from smoked DMT.




remember that psilocin once was psilocybin which had a phosphorus atom attached to it.. which changes all the game.

you do understand that those small changes are doing hella'lot in a substance (for instance 1p-LSD to LSD, just added propionyl which also hydrolizes if im not wrong)

It may resemble the same piece of the puzzle but the substances are different. IMO.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: psilosalvia]
    #23922448 - 12/13/16 11:59 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Not true. First off mushrooms contain both psilocybin and psilocin and second off you can take almost pure psilocin. It's called lemon tekking.

It having to convert into psilocin does not make any difference other than how fast it will hit you and when.

Using 1P as an example is not accurate at all because 1P-LSD is not a prodrug for LSD it's active on its own.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23923187 - 12/13/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

They really are very similar, chemically and pharmacalogically. Psilocin is basically oral active dmt. And on that note n,n,dmt is not anywhere remotely the most powerful psychedelic known to man, it's one of the weakest if anything. Of the classical psychedelics alone it's the weakest besides mescaline. The only reason it is so powerful is because people SMOKE it. Go smoke some psilocin or lsd and come tell me you still think that lol.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: krypto2000]
    #23923230 - 12/13/16 04:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

ya I have a strange theory that freebase psilocin would be even more insane than smoked DMT but I haven't tried either so can't say. Psilocin is a more advanced molecule than DMT though, however LSD is more "advanced" than all of them.

Why do you say DMT is one of the weakest though? Do you find real oral DMT (ayahuasca) to be weak?
I've heard a lot more people feel like they're losing their marbles or going insane on LSD and psilocin as oppose to ayahuasca which is more clearheaded apparently. Is it because you find DMT less mind altering and more lucid?


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23923405 - 12/13/16 05:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

No, the experience is not weak, but comparing smoked n,n,dmt to oral 4-ho-dmt is apples to oranges. If you were to compare oral to oral or smoked to smoked then you'd likely find n,n,dmt is not that potent. There are some reports of vaporized psilocin out there, supposedly it's not only more potent, but a lot more intense relative to the dose and the experience lasts an hour opposed to 15 minutes. There's only about 10-20 reports in total that I've come across though so you have to take them with a grain of salt, but that is about what I would suspect.


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OfflinePsilocybernator
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23925035 - 12/14/16 05:55 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Eclipse3130 said:
Exactly OP!
Mushrooms are a form of oral DMT, in fact my favorite. Smoked DMT and Ayahuasca are overhyped, people hype them up because these people actually take proper doses of the medicine for breakthrough experiences. If everyone took 5g of mushrooms they'd be hyped too, you can get the EXACT same benefits as ayahuasca from a proper mushroom trip.






I agree with you 100% on this Eclipse 3130! I think that mushrooms are just as powerful as entheogens as ayahuasca or smoked DMT.

There's a great video on YouTube about mushrooms vs ayahuasca by PsychedSubstance. I think you'll find it interesting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p18kR4_WCvE


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All posts by this user are fictional and are for entertainment purposes only.

“You don’t want to become so open-minded that the wind can whistle between your ears.”
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InvisibleZacksJourney
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: Psilocybernator]
    #23925079 - 12/14/16 06:34 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Adam is the man


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OfflinePsilocybernator
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Re: The chemistry of psilocybin [Re: ZacksJourney]
    #23925109 - 12/14/16 06:49 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

He is right?I love his channel!


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