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InvisibleArcanum
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Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (FOR FUN AND EXPERIMENTATION)
    #23914290 - 12/10/16 07:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Hello everyone!

It's been several years since my last grow, but I had the itch a few months ago and decided to grow myself a few cubes. Hooray! Since my last time, I have gained a wealth of experience with microcontrollers (Arduino, Raspberry Pis, that sort of thing) so I thought it'd be fun to build an automated/low maintenance grow system.

THIS ISN'T NECESSARY OR ADVISED. I'M DOING THIS FOR FUN, LEARNING EXPERIENCE, AND TO EXPERIMENT. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, FUCK OFF.


I had to wait longer than I was expecting on components to arrive at my door so the whole thing probably won't be completed by the time this grow is ready to fruit (I just spawned last night!), but I have been working with the constituent parts and figuring everything out. I'll probably do a write up on the whole thing when I am ready, but I stumbled on a relatively novel method of monitoring CO2 concentration that I don't believe has been used before in the hobby mycology community so I wanted to detail it specifically.

So... dedicated CO2 meters typically run over at least $100 and the extent of their automation system integration is usually just a max/min switch. That's not nearly good enough for me. Beyond that, sensor modules specifically sensitive to CO2 are available and aren't necessarily expensive, but relative to most sensors, they are far from cheap. The MH-Z19 is probably the most affordable and easily interfaceable of these options but still costs around $20 (other CO2 sensors cost $30+). We can do better than that.

Enter the MQ135 (datasheet is here). It is an electrochemical "air quality" sensor that is sensitive to a number of substances, including (but not limited to) ammonia, benzene, alcohol, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. Luckily for us, we can reasonably assume that concentrations of the substances it can sense, other than CO2, aren't really going to fluctuate much (and if they do, we probably don't want to expose our shrooms to that stuff anyway) so we can effectively use these as CO2 sensors. The best part... MQ135s cost around $1.50 - $6, depending on where you buy them. To interface with them, the only other necessary component is an Arduino (you can get perfectly functional Chinese clones for as little as $3) or any other microcontroller with an analog input.

With a clever bit of math (detailed here by a guy named Davide Gironi. There is another Arduino library someone wrote to implement this here, which is the one I am using), we can calibrate the module to approximate CO2 concentration. Now, while it theoretically is possible to get a fairly accurate ppm value, since these things work electrochemically, they can be very finicky and calibrating them is difficult to guarantee. First of all, new modules have to be "burned-in" for 24-48 hours before using. Second, the sensor has to be pre-heated every time it is powered up. The module will take care of this itself and in automation system, it probably would always be on anyway, but nevertheless, the reading will be off until it's adequately warmed up. Lastly, as I said, ensuring a good calibration is somewhat tricky... it has to be done outside and preferably at 70 degrees F and as little wind as possible. These conditions are difficult to find in December.

Fortunately, for the purpose of automating FAE, we don't actually need a dead accurate CO2 ppm value. We just need the value to scale with increasing CO2 concentrations... which it does quite well. To deal with inaccurate calibration and possible shifts of the sensor sensitivity, we can employ some tricks in order to know when to trigger and stop the FAE process (accomplished via fans and simultaneous humidification to avoid RH drops).

For testing purposes, I have a 6,400 cubic cm Sterlite container with a 60mm hole at the top (CO2 sinks, I know, but this is just a test) for a 60cm PC fan in a "pull" configuration (it's sucks the air out) with the lid slightly open for air intake and electrostatic air filters over both the intake and outtake (to keep dust and larger particulate out and help keep humidity in). With the current calibration, I get 550-620 ppm of CO2 inside the container. True "fresh air" would be around 400 ppm (thanks climate change!), but unless we feed in air from outside or pump in oxygen, we're never going to actually reach that indoors.

Using a drinking straw, with one full lung full of breath blown into the container, the ppm reaches 1300-2000 before beginning to slowly fall back down. Turning on the fan, the value begins to plunge for about 50 seconds or so before it seems to level off at about 700-800 ppm. With the fan still on, it doesn't always seem to actually reach the base point, but interestingly, when the fan is stopped, the value will continue to fall further to the original level. I can only guess that this is because the increased air flow from the fan is actually causing more molecules of CO2 to hit the sensor in the period of time that the measurement takes place.

Sometimes, the value will drop to below 400... which most definitely means that either the calibration was wrong in the first place or the sensor sensitivity is fluctuating. It's pretty safe to assume incorrect calibration but it's basically impossible to say for sure without an actual calibrated CO2 meter to check against. At the moment, mine has been calibrated inside at roughly 75 degrees. I've tried to calibrate outside (weather has been around 60 degrees F and breezy), but whenever I bring it back inside, the value will quickly climb to 1500+, even with an open window 3 feet away (I wouldn't expect more than 1000). Temperature and wind are probably factoring in to this error (at least I hope it's an error :ohwell:).

There are ways we can deal with this uncertainty. We only really need to monitor the changes. If the value goes over 1000 or so or increasing by a certain amount, we can assume we want FAE. As long as we can keep humidity up (I will be using an ultrasonic atomizer device), it's not going to hurt to mix in some more fresh air, even if we don't necessarily need it. Also, as shown in my tests, while flushing in fresh air, there's always a point where the value levels off and stops dropping. We can assume then that the inner CO2 has reached equilibrium with the air in the room (even if it's not technically "fresh air," we can't do any better anyway without sourcing air from outside) and we'll know it's time to stop. To deal with possible wandering sensor sensitivity, I can use a 2nd MQ135 for redundancy. If the value from both of them goes up and down proportionally at the same time, we know there's an actual change of CO2 concentration. If one changes significantly and the other doesn't, it's not a real fluctuation. I have a 2nd MQ135 to do this, but it needs to be burned in.

In the next few days, I am going to run a few more tests at full scale (the 47 liter tub I will be fruiting in) and while maintaining humidity, and if all goes well, I will work to integrate everything, maybe in time to fruit. For what it's worth, I have plans and parts to control temperature but the room in which I grow is always in an ideal fruiting temperature so I won't be focusing on that. I'll be sure to update this for those who are interested.

Let me know what you think. :thumbup:


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Edited by Arcanum (12/11/16 05:49 PM)


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23914334 - 12/10/16 07:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

:goodmorning:


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: cronicr]
    #23914601 - 12/10/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

:saywhat:

I'm not sure whats wrong with a plastic tote with holes in it. What you call "automation" sounds like a fuckload of work.


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Munchauzen]
    #23914727 - 12/10/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
I'm not sure whats wrong with a plastic tote with holes in it. What you call "automation" sounds like a fuckload of work.




:shake:

First of all, this is primarily for fun, experimentation, and the learning experience... 

Second of all, having more control (or at least having the ability to monitor) CO2 levels allows more of an opportunity to dial in optimal conditions. Just because you can get a decent pin set in a tub with holes in it doesn't mean they're getting as much fresh air as they could (you have no way of knowing without a CO2 meter) or that you couldn't get better yields more reliably with better/more consistent FAE. Many people still manually fan their tubs for FAE. Also, for the sake of experimenting with methods to get improved or consistent yields, it's crucial to constrain as many variables as possible. For instance, for people that are trying to isolate super-strains, it is useful to be able to eliminate variable environmental factors from the equation.

Thirdly, automation implies doing work once and then being able to leave it to run on it's own without having to check on it every day. For someone like me who is often out of town for days at a time, this is useful. It's not even that much work. With a couple more hours of programming and $2 Wifi module, I could even send data to a server and monitor and/or control growing conditions from anywhere with an internet connection.

Is it necessarily? No. Is it useful? Yes. Is it bad ass? I think so.


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23914751 - 12/10/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Or you could just do monotubs, which are automated by default, and require no monitoring whatsoever once dialed in properly.


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23914778 - 12/10/16 10:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arcanum said:
Quote:

Munchauzen said:
I'm not sure whats wrong with a plastic tote with holes in it. What you call "automation" sounds like a fuckload of work.




:shake:

First of all, this is primarily for fun, experimentation, and the learning experience... 

Second of all, having more control (or at least having the ability to monitor) CO2 levels allows more of an opportunity to dial in optimal conditions. Just because you can get a decent pin set in a tub with holes in it doesn't mean they're getting as much fresh air as they could (you have no way of knowing without a CO2 meter) or that you couldn't get better yields more reliably with better/more consistent FAE. Many people still manually fan their tubs for FAE. Also, for the sake of experimenting with methods to get improved or consistent yields, it's crucial to constrain as many variables as possible. For instance, for people that are trying to isolate super-strains, it is useful to be able to eliminate variable environmental factors from the equation.

Thirdly, automation implies doing work once and then being able to leave it to run on it's own without having to check on it every day. For someone like me who is often out of town for days at a time, this is useful. It's not even that much work. With a couple more hours of programming and $2 Wifi module, I could even send data to a server and monitor and/or control growing conditions from anywhere with an internet connection.

Is it necessarily? No. Is it useful? Yes. Is it bad ass? I think so.:facepalm:



  :blah:  :blah:  :noob:


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23914812 - 12/10/16 10:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arcanum said:
Many people still manually fan their tubs for FAE.




really? anyone who says they fan for fae has no grasp on what fae is. and most
likely will explain why said persons grows are shitty and the concept of an
'automated' chamber sounds appealing.:thumbdown:

sorry but a simple proven way to grow is better then unproven over complicated one.
focus on your spawn. not a fancy FC.


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23914902 - 12/10/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
really? anyone who says they fan for fae has no grasp on what fae is. and most
likely will explain why said persons grows are shitty and the concept of an
'automated' chamber sounds appealing.:thumbdown:




RR seems to disagree:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Fanning is when you take the lid of the tote and wave it back and forth over the terrarium to blow out the stale air and replace it with fresh. Fan for fifteen seconds or so each time. I'd suggest drilling a hundred or more 1/4" holes into all six sides of the terrarium, elevate it an inch or two off the shelf, and then fan a couple of times per day also.





Again...

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
If it's a shotgun terrarium, you don't 'have' to fan at all.  However, for best results fan and mist whenever you think of it.  Several times per day is great.
RR




Once more, since apparently no one bothered to read my last post:
Quote:

Arcanum said:
First of all, this is primarily for fun, experimentation, and the learning experience... 




Heaven forbid someone decides to try something different and want to share. Clearly, I shouldn't have bothered. :ohwell:


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23914932 - 12/10/16 11:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Yet he never once say fan for fae or anything about co2... because a fruiting sub doesnt put much off its stale air ypu need to worry about not co2.


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: cronicr]
    #23914970 - 12/10/16 11:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Josex said:
Quote:

Arcanum said:
Is it necessarily? No. Is it useful? Yes. Is it bad ass? I think so.:facepalm:



  :blah:  :blah:  :noob:




The next time you use a $2 module to measure atmospheric concentrations of a gas typically requiring a sensor 10-50 times the cost in order to programmatically control the micro-climate inside of a container, let me know and I'll be more than happy to bow down to your expertise.

Quote:

cronicr said:
Yet he never once say fan for fae or anything about co2... because a fruiting sub doesnt put much off its stale air ypu need to worry about not co2.




Here you go:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Thanks bro, you are right, they don't seem to understand that a FC is not an analog to a PLANET!

Seems like it goes without saying, but they just like to call you wrong so much they often don't stop to make sure you actually are wrong.

In a near stale air environment like a FC between fanning, yes, the CO2 will settle on the bottom, and if you release O2 from below, it will rise up and replace the CO2 as it drains away.





You would be well advised to take a basic science course prior to calling other people wrong.  I've posted many times on this subject to try to help clear the misunderstandings and down right ignorant shit I've seen posted here, but little can rival this.

Do you have a CO2 sensor?  I do.  Do you have an O2 sensor?  I do.  Do you have a meter that can read ppm of particulate in the air?  I do.

More BS
Quote:

What you guys and RR especially seem to neglect in your thought process is that the Earth has huge massive air currents to keep everything balanced out. Convection is constantly churning the air around us, pretty much evenly distributing the CO2 that occurs in the atmosphere all around.

CO2 IS heavier than air, and without any kind of air current to keep it from sinking, it will. An FC is generally a fairly still-air environment, meaning the CO2 is dispersed very little thoughout the air inside the chamber. I'm sure if you had some kind of gas composite analyzer to take a sample of the air lower in the FC, it would more than likely read at least marginally higher levels of CO2 near the bottom.






Here's a news flash.  The fruiting chamber I designed has holes in all six sides.  This results in convection and circulation.  It is NOT a still air environment! The mushroom substrates produce heat, and also the lighting that shines through the fruiting chamber produces heat.  These two produce convection. Perhaps if you'd read posts before jumping into shit you know nothing of, you'd have seen that.  Sorry, but this pisses me off.  Don't attack my work because you don't understand the science behind it.

Now, in a so-called 'shotgun' fruiting chamber with holes on all six sides, would you suppose the CO2 drains out the bottom?  It doesn't.  It mixes with the air.  I see absolutely NO change in CO2 concentration from the top to the bottom of the fruiting chamber.  CO2 levels are higher than ambient in the room, but lower than they would be in a 'still air' terrarium, as if anyone who has knowledge of the life cycle of fungi would ever make such a thing. 

Do your homework before trashing others work please.
RR




And then...

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
CO2 will build up in a terrarium, whether or not holes are drilled into all six sides.  The levels will be lower than they would be without holes drilled and/or fanning regularly, but will still be above normal ambient.

With oyster mushrooms and lion's mane to name two species that are very CO2 intolerant, you need to fan a few times per day, even when using my terrarium design.

The point above, is that even with 100 holes in the floor of the fruiting chamber/terrarium, CO2 levels will still be elevated.  The holes help, but don't make for maintenance free fruiting.  In other words, gravity won't 'drain' the CO2.  I hope this clears up any lingering confusion.

In addition, CO2 is not the only reason we provide air exchange.  The other important reason is that contaminants prefer stale air, while mushroom mycelium prefers fresh, moving air.  Good luck to all.
RR




Finally...

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Of course, mushrooms produce co2 as well, indisputably, what I mean by works though is whether this translates into an increase in relative co2 concentrations or if it gets dispersed too quickly, even with airflow control, is up for debate it would seem.




How is it up for debate?  If I failed to vent my colonization room, it would shoot above 5000 ppm within a few hours.

I used CO2 supplementation from my mushroom substrates for a cropping cycle or two before they  were spent.  I maintained 700 to 800 ppm by controlling exhaust fan speed.  If the CO2 started getting too high, I'd just speed up the fan.

The problem is they also produce CO2 at night when your plants are also outgassing CO2, leading to CO2 saturated soil and roots, which causes wild pH swings and other issues.

I no longer use any form of CO2 supplementation.  In a legal market, buds are sold by weight, but priced higher for potency.  Anything which makes the flower grow larger without also increasing the number of stem cells devoted to forming glandular trichomes is counterproductive.
RR




Forgive me if I trust him more than you.


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Edited by Arcanum (12/10/16 11:49 PM)


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23914994 - 12/10/16 11:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

No need to read your walls of text... You're overcomplicating stuff, that feels unshroomy mang and shrooms like it simple. Fucking the follow tek, succeed and then see if you need to do all that bullshit

This quote though :lol:

Quote:

Srirachi said:
When people quote RR nonstop, it is usually a sign that they have zero actual experience.

I don't say this as any sort of comment on RR's knowledge or contributions, but rather I compare their thought patterns to those of cave people in sci fi movies, who build a religion around some completely misconstrued artifact from a more advanced culture.

Their endless copy-paste posts make me grin, as I imagine them emerging from their cave into their certain destruction, all the while holding up the laserdisc from the Voyager probe above their heads as if it makes them invincible, completely unaware that they are about to be squished.






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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Josex]
    #23915009 - 12/11/16 12:08 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Ya really just proved my point lol..


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Josex]
    #23915065 - 12/11/16 12:38 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Josex said:
No need to read your walls of text... You're overcomplicating stuff, that feels unshroomy mang and shrooms like it simple. Fucking the follow tek, succeed and then see if you need to do all that bullshit





Oh no! I made you read too much! I'm so sorry!  :foreheadslap:

It'd be a lot simpler for me to just buy shrooms, but that wouldn't be fun at all would it? Not once did I ever say this is how it should be done, not once did I say this was necessary, not once did I say it'd be easier, not once did I say it would be cheaper than orthodox teks. I detailed a way to approximate CO2 concentration without a $200 CO2 meter in a way that would allow automation and monitoring and asserted that it could be useful. I want build an automated system for my fruiting chamber, as several people have already done, because I can and because I enjoy doing such things. I'm not even looking for shit tons of shrooms anyway. Why is that a problem? Why do you even care how I grow my shrooms? That's "unshroomy," as far as I'm concerned. Just because it seems over-complicated to you, doesn't mean it does to me.

Quote:

Josex said:
This quote though :lol:

Quote:

Srirachi said:
When people quote RR nonstop, it is usually a sign that they have zero actual experience.

I don't say this as any sort of comment on RR's knowledge or contributions, but rather I compare their thought patterns to those of cave people in sci fi movies, who build a religion around some completely misconstrued artifact from a more advanced culture.

Their endless copy-paste posts make me grin, as I imagine them emerging from their cave into their certain destruction, all the while holding up the laserdisc from the Voyager probe above their heads as if it makes them invincible, completely unaware that they are about to be squished.









RR knows more about mycology than both you and me put together. He has a CO2 meter and has used it, whereas I'm assuming you don't. His expertise supersedes yours in this context. Religions are based on myths and dogma. RR and his knowledge are real and very much well founded. Therefore, the metaphor in that quote is absurd. I refer to an expert in the field because I'm not an arrogant fool who thinks I know more than someone with significantly more experience.

Quote:

cronicr said:
Ya really just proved my point lol..




How? I don't even know what your point is, and I really don't think you understand what my point is either.


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Edited by Arcanum (12/11/16 12:42 AM)


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: cronicr] * 1
    #23915069 - 12/11/16 12:40 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

What I think everyone is missing is that for the OP it's not about growing mushrooms.


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23915073 - 12/11/16 12:42 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Also not to beat on RR because he was a pioneer, but he hasn't grown cubes in 30 years, never ran a monotub, and bases most of his advice on edibles. It's not the same game.


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Arcanum]
    #23915170 - 12/11/16 02:06 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arcanum said:
Quote:

Munchauzen said:
I'm not sure whats wrong with a plastic tote with holes in it. What you call "automation" sounds like a fuckload of work.




:shake:

First of all, this is primarily for fun, experimentation, and the learning experience...



So if this is all it is, I really wouldn't give a fuck. But then you went on..

Quote:

Arcanum said:
Second of all, having more control (or at least having the ability to monitor) CO2 levels allows more of an opportunity to dial in optimal conditions. Just because you can get a decent pin set in a tub with holes in it doesn't mean they're getting as much fresh air as they could (you have no way of knowing without a CO2 meter)



False. You know it's had enough FAE when the mushrooms show a good reaction to the FAE. Mushrooms tell you everything good or bad.
Quote:

Arcanum said:
or that you couldn't get better yields more reliably with better/more consistent FAE. Many people still manually fan their tubs for FAE.



Or you could just loosen your monotub holes, like the teks say for getting more FAE. Also I know of absolutely zero growers these days who fan for FAE.. You need to fan every 15 minutes for it to be considered proper FAE.
Quote:

Arcanum said:
Also, for the sake of experimenting with methods to get improved or consistent yields, it's crucial to constrain as many variables as possible. For instance, for people that are trying to isolate super-strains, it is useful to be able to eliminate variable environmental factors from the equation.



You can do this by growing mushrooms, and learning their respective reactions. Then fixing the situation based off the reaction. Not make a fruiting chamber filled with technology you have no idea will work before understanding the mushrooms reactions telling you how/if your chamber works.
Quote:

Arcanum said:
Thirdly, automation implies doing work once and then being able to leave it to run on it's own without having to check on it every day. For someone like me who is often out of town for days at a time, this is useful. It's not even that much work. With a couple more hours of programming and $2 Wifi module, I could even send data to a server and monitor and/or control growing conditions from anywhere with an internet connection.



I leave monos for days/weeks sometimes. They're literally the most automated shit ever... To me you're doing what everyone else is saying. So much extra work for something that has been proven time and time again.
Quote:

Arcanum said:
Is it necessarily? No. Is it useful? Yes. Is it bad ass? I think so.



Is it more useful for you than just learning all the mushrooms reactions by following the teks? Some of the most useful shit I've learned has been from a typical mono grow.


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Edited by Mad Season (12/11/16 02:13 AM)


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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23915189 - 12/11/16 02:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Also not to beat on RR because he was a pioneer, but he hasn't grown cubes in 30 years, never ran a monotub, and bases most of his advice on edibles. It's not the same game.



Exactly..he did lots of shit before understanding what he does now...thats just the way it goes..if you wanna measire something measure the incom8ng fresh air not the co2


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: cronicr]
    #23915225 - 12/11/16 04:01 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I'm with pasty on this.

OP isn't trying to make converts or breaking into SGFC/mono threads insisting that co2 monitoring is necessary.  he's just making observations on his idea and sharing it (in his own thread BTW)….so what?

edit: to be fair, there have been WAY more crazy ideas with WAY less (seemingly) sane posters….i don't think this one is bat-shit crazy like many we have seen before

its low cost, thats awesome.  looks like the sensor might not be 100% reliable though….i would be interested to see if it holds.



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Edited by blindingleaf (12/11/16 04:07 AM)


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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23915295 - 12/11/16 06:03 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Word.
I don't understand all the hate..
:threadmonitor:
It could be interesting/useful for my edible grows.


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Extremely affordable method to roughly monitor CO2 concentration (for FAE automation) [Re: enlightenment]
    #23915306 - 12/11/16 06:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

there are definitely threads where its warranted, but i dunno, i don't think this is one of them.

if it was:

"hey, you should automate your mono with this cheap thing I made and used one time"

then i'd say fuck that.


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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts


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