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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Grain hulls/chaff as substrate
#23907822 - 12/08/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I get that "pretty much anything can be used as mushroom substrate", so I'm not looking for a 'easy' answer, but an enlightening one. I want to understand what grain chaff/hull is really worth when it comes to growing commercial mushrooms on a small-medium scale, let's pick oysters for the sake of argument. Judging by the nutritional facts I have available, wheat straw and wheat chaff are almost identical when it comes to nutrients (in Mushroom Cultivator appendix, chaff is slightly higher in N, straw slightly higher in fibre). With my current set-up, it is easier for me to lime pasteurize than any other method (I'm only using straw right now.) My bottle neck is all my mushroom inputs have to be certified organic (so cotton seed or soybean hulls and even alfalfa pellets are pretty much out of the question). So I have found spelt and emmer hulls for $60 per 1 ton tote (these totes won't actually have 1 ton in them because chaff isn't dense, but if there's even 500lbs in it, that's still HALF the price I am currently able to source organic straw). I also wouldn't have to chop straw anymore, which saves me fuel and labour-hours with the shredder.
What are the pitfalls here that I am missing? More contam? Not enough lignin? Should I uses it like 50:50 with straw instead? Thanks for the advice!
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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poponon
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23908126 - 12/08/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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This would be some great information to share if anyone has it. I haven't had experience with using chaff as substrate, but my first concern would be in regards to it's moistened aggregate structure and moisture retention.
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Gr0wer
always improving



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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23908131 - 12/08/16 07:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You would want to sterilize em. Give em a shot, at that price your sure to get a return on it. Is organic wheat bran available?
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: poponon]
#23908461 - 12/08/16 09:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14732277 "beta-Adenosine at 25 mg per kg wet wheat straw increased the yield of Pleurotus with 52% and the yield of Stropharia with 258%", which sounds absolutely crazy to get over %200 increase in yield. I can't access the entire article nor can I find any more information on said "Beta-adenosine". Don't know if it's to be found in most grass hulls or only this particular rye grass.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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Crispykoot
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23908595 - 12/08/16 10:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I use Organic Spelt hulls exclusively for growing Oysters. I love them. Easy to work with. They don't get trich hardly at all. I have about 2.5 years worth of yields in my notes and I get 1# per 1# dry substrate with a very high spawn ratio. Spawn is mixed in at 15L to 150# wet or 50# dry. Makes 50 blocks (bags, each about 6L) Moisture retention is excellent and this yield is on three flushes first being about .5 or more. I haven't used any gypsum or chalk and don't water. Hot water bath pasteurized at 160 for 90 minutes. Drained for 1/2 hour then laid out on plastic 4x8 to cool and dry some. Spawned and mixed when cool enough then bagged and incubated for 2 weeks. $60 for about 800 pounds is what I pay including the tote.
Edited by Crispykoot (12/09/16 06:52 AM)
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Crispykoot
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Crispykoot]
#23908621 - 12/08/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's a photo of fully colonized bags.
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tump
ban the undead



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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Crispykoot]
#23909165 - 12/09/16 05:23 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Dam is that tote shipped to your door for $60. Can't beat that return
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Crispykoot
Jello Wrangler


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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: tump]
#23909211 - 12/09/16 05:58 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Shipping will always be the biggest cost factor these days... $500 to get 4 totes to me in shipping... Still works out... $1.50 per pound covers all of my costs. I wholesale for 6-9 per pound on Oysters. Crazy. That's buying 3015 grain spawn. Profit margins are pretty big..If you know how to make spawn, it gets very workable.
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Shadowboxing the apocalypse and wandering the land
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Crispykoot]
#23910369 - 12/09/16 02:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
tump said: Dam is that tote shipped to your door for $60. Can't beat that return
That's without shipping. Ordering 3 or more totes comes to $50 each, but $CAN, so that's like $12US and hockey puck.
Quote:
Crispykoot said: I use Organic Spelt hulls exclusively for growing Oysters. I love them. Easy to work with. They don't get trich hardly at all. I have about 2.5 years worth of yields in my notes and I get 1# per 1# dry substrate with a very high spawn ratio. Spawn is mixed in at 15L to 150# wet or 50# dry. Makes 50 blocks (bags, each about 6L) Moisture retention is excellent and this yield is on three flushes first being about .5 or more. I haven't used any gypsum or chalk and don't water. Hot water bath pasteurized at 160 for 90 minutes. Drained for 1/2 hour then laid out on plastic 4x8 to cool and dry some. Spawned and mixed when cool enough then bagged and incubated for 2 weeks. $60 for about 800 pounds is what I pay including the tote.
THANK YOU! Super helpful. I am making my own spawn, using both agar and LC (experimenting all winter and gonna stick with one method come spring). It's not so hard, and if you've got downtime this winter, you can surely get really good at it. Are you in BC? Also, if you're ordering spawn, you probably don't buy your own grain then, but just in case: I can't find any organic grain for less than $47 for 20kg. You got any ideas where I could order from, and if you know anybody that produces sorghum/milo in ALL of Canada? I want some not only to make spawn but also to plant.
Also, gypsum might be worth it: http://fst.sagepub.com/content/17/4/351.abstract The full article says that, while 5% gypsum didn't necessarily increase %BE, it did increase the mushrooms ability to hold water (i.e., the final weight per mushroom), and it did increase the amount of mushrooms that had medium to large cap sizes (not not increased stems) and increases their firmness (again, stems stayed the same). Interestingly, the study recommended AGAINST the use of gypsum because the research was funded and intended to study CANNED oyster, so the larger cap size and water retention was not a desirable characteristic for canning. But larger, firmer oyster caps would certainly draw more attention from chefs and at markets, and the denser caps would also hold-up better when cooked fresh (and the water weight mean more $$$ for you). I'll run my own trials eventually with my own strains to see if it actually makes a difference.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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Crispykoot
Jello Wrangler



Registered: 10/16/16
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23910742 - 12/09/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Rye through My supplier is cheaper. There are 3 choices that I know of. Organic Matters, Fieldstone Organics and I recently started using Schmidt organic out of Sask. About $35 Canadian for 20 KG. Fieldstone is the most expensive. Always happy to share what I am learning.
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Shadowboxing the apocalypse and wandering the land
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Crispykoot
Jello Wrangler



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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Crispykoot]
#23910780 - 12/09/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey Fly, I am looking for a new supplier for hulls. I just got fucked on 2 totes that came moldy...Seems like your pricing is better so It's likely a different place. If you have any ideas let me know...
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23910846 - 12/09/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
flyontoast said:
Quote:
tump said: Dam is that tote shipped to your door for $60. Can't beat that return
That's without shipping. Ordering 3 or more totes comes to $50 each, but $CAN, so that's like $12US and hockey puck.
Quote:
Crispykoot said: I use Organic Spelt hulls exclusively for growing Oysters. I love them. Easy to work with. They don't get trich hardly at all. I have about 2.5 years worth of yields in my notes and I get 1# per 1# dry substrate with a very high spawn ratio. Spawn is mixed in at 15L to 150# wet or 50# dry. Makes 50 blocks (bags, each about 6L) Moisture retention is excellent and this yield is on three flushes first being about .5 or more. I haven't used any gypsum or chalk and don't water. Hot water bath pasteurized at 160 for 90 minutes. Drained for 1/2 hour then laid out on plastic 4x8 to cool and dry some. Spawned and mixed when cool enough then bagged and incubated for 2 weeks. $60 for about 800 pounds is what I pay including the tote.
THANK YOU! Super helpful. I am making my own spawn, using both agar and LC (experimenting all winter and gonna stick with one method come spring). It's not so hard, and if you've got downtime this winter, you can surely get really good at it. Are you in BC? Also, if you're ordering spawn, you probably don't buy your own grain then, but just in case: I can't find any organic grain for less than $47 for 20kg. You got any ideas where I could order from, and if you know anybody that produces sorghum/milo in ALL of Canada? I want some not only to make spawn but also to plant.
Also, gypsum might be worth it: http://fst.sagepub.com/content/17/4/351.abstract The full article says that, while 5% gypsum didn't necessarily increase %BE, it did increase the mushrooms ability to hold water (i.e., the final weight per mushroom), and it did increase the amount of mushrooms that had medium to large cap sizes (not not increased stems) and increases their firmness (again, stems stayed the same). Interestingly, the study recommended AGAINST the use of gypsum because the research was funded and intended to study CANNED oyster, so the larger cap size and water retention was not a desirable characteristic for canning. But larger, firmer oyster caps would certainly draw more attention from chefs and at markets, and the denser caps would also hold-up better when cooked fresh (and the water weight mean more $$$ for you). I'll run my own trials eventually with my own strains to see if it actually makes a difference.
i would suspect that the growing climate in CA isn't idea for milo, especially since it's a really low value (at least where I live). I ordered rye and bran from Natural Way Mills, their prices were quite reasonable by the ton. Maybe $0.25/lb before freight.
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23911117 - 12/09/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Crispykoot said: Hey Fly, I am looking for a new supplier for hulls. I just got fucked on 2 totes that came moldy...Seems like your pricing is better so It's likely a different place. If you have any ideas let me know...
Oh man, I hope that wasn't from Fieldstone, cause that's the company I am waiting to get a shipping quote from. Are they giving you your money back? They sell it as a feed supplement or bedding, both can't be moldy, so they should really do something for you. I'll look into Schmidt's shipping price, and I'll for sure keep you in the loop if I find another supplier. Alternatively, it's worth looking into seed companies too. Rye is sold as a cover crop, and I've been using Van Dam winter rye and it's working great. But I still can't find anything less than $45 for 50#.
Quote:
drake89 said: i would suspect that the growing climate in CA isn't idea for milo, especially since it's a really low value (at least where I live).
Farmed in Canada have you? Grown lots of grain have you?
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
Edited by flyontoast (12/09/16 06:24 PM)
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poponon
Quaaaack!!!



Registered: 09/10/07
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Crispykoot]
#23911266 - 12/09/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Crispykoot said: I use Organic Spelt hulls exclusively for growing Oysters.
Wow crispy thanks for sharing all this info.
I would also be interested in testing out using chaff as substrate. Don't think I could use a whole ton fast enough that it wouldn't mold though.
Have you tried using wheat berries/kernals instead of rye? I think this place in Scarborough has some for pretty cheap but i'm not sure , the place is called Grain Process Enterprises. They carry bran too. EvilMushroom666 posted a few years back about getting the wheat kernals for 27$/55lb .. not sure if the price is still the same. definitely cheaper for me since it's within driving distance.
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drake89
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23911447 - 12/09/16 08:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
flyontoast said:
Quote:
Crispykoot said: Hey Fly, I am looking for a new supplier for hulls. I just got fucked on 2 totes that came moldy...Seems like your pricing is better so It's likely a different place. If you have any ideas let me know...
Oh man, I hope that wasn't from Fieldstone, cause that's the company I am waiting to get a shipping quote from. Are they giving you your money back? They sell it as a feed supplement or bedding, both can't be moldy, so they should really do something for you. I'll look into Schmidt's shipping price, and I'll for sure keep you in the loop if I find another supplier. Alternatively, it's worth looking into seed companies too. Rye is sold as a cover crop, and I've been using Van Dam winter rye and it's working great. But I still can't find anything less than $45 for 50#.
You should look for feed grade grain, it is dirtier but also a heck of a lot cheaper, at least where I live. Also wheat and oats are a lot cheaper and about the same
Quote:
drake89 said: i would suspect that the growing climate in CA isn't idea for milo, especially since it's a really low value (at least where I live).
Farmed in Canada have you? Grown lots of grain have you?
Have not farmed in canada, but I have been to BC recently during the harvest. My dad grows a few hundred acres of grain annually to feed his cattle. Sorghum is a relative of sugar cane which does best in really HOT climates with a longer summer than you get. Probably why you can't find it locally. Even in the states it's $1/lb unless you know a farmer directly. I'd look into millet if it's available.
http://www.agannex.com/research/sorghum-in-canada
Until recently, all sorghum and pearl millet grown in Canada was obtained from the U.S., which is grown in states where corn cannot be grown. In Canada, currently, only about 5,000-8,000 acres of sorghum is being grown in Eastern Canada, he adds. However, in 2013, 3,000 acres of production and demonstration plots were planted out west.
The problem with growing sorghum in Canada is one of maturity, as the plant need to dry and be ready to harvest in 95-115 days, says Kumar. "In years where there is not enough accumulation of hear (for example, if summer is cool), maturity of the grain is difficult. But, the issue of maturity is not a problem for forage and silage, only grian sorghum."
Edited by drake89 (12/09/16 08:37 PM)
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23911646 - 12/09/16 09:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: Have not farmed in canada, but I have been to BC recently during the harvest. My dad grows a few hundred acres of grain annually to feed his cattle. Sorghum is a relative of sugar cane which does best in really HOT climates with a longer summer than you get. Probably why you can't find it locally. Even in the states it's $1/lb unless you know a farmer directly. I'd look into millet if it's available.
http://www.agannex.com/research/sorghum-in-canada
Until recently, all sorghum and pearl millet grown in Canada was obtained from the U.S., which is grown in states where corn cannot be grown. In Canada, currently, only about 5,000-8,000 acres of sorghum is being grown in Eastern Canada, he adds. However, in 2013, 3,000 acres of production and demonstration plots were planted out west.
The problem with growing sorghum in Canada is one of maturity, as the plant need to dry and be ready to harvest in 95-115 days, says Kumar. "In years where there is not enough accumulation of hear (for example, if summer is cool), maturity of the grain is difficult. But, the issue of maturity is not a problem for forage and silage, only grian sorghum."
Thanks, but I've done my research, a lot more than you are going to turn up in a quick google search. I worked with a guy who grew sorghum in OTTAWA, which has a much shorter, wetter summer than we get on our farm and micro-climate. With the west coast becoming more and more drought prone, sorghum may be the future of local grain, fodder, sugar, and flour. Obviously not any of the "round-up ready" varieties that are popular in the south. I know you've expressed your "disconcern" with environmentally conscious food production in other posts, but for people that might care, there are beautiful, organic, hybridized sorghum varieties that: produce a more nutritional grain than wheat (that is also gluten free), have leaves that make excellent fodder, do not require irrigation, whose stalks can be pressed for syrup, and have extensive root system that increase soil organic matter. It is the perfect all-in-one plant for any medium scale, diversified, vertically integrated farm that intends to continue providing a rounded diet to their local community in an uncertain future of climate change.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23911686 - 12/09/16 10:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Dawg you are making a lot of assumptions about my views on organic ag. There is no such thing as round up ready sorghum btw. It's not a big enough cash crop for that kind of investment. There's also no such thing as round ready wheat, which is a common misconception. Round up ready is about to be phased out in favor of the more toxic 2,4D since weeds have evolved a lot faster than chemical companies 'anticpated'.
BTW I can be certified organic in US without using OG inputs as long as I don't apply chemicals in the grow room. Pretty crazy huh?
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23911689 - 12/09/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Also I wasn't saying you can't grow warm weather grasses in canada, but it's hard so not many people do it. Which is why it's expensive.
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anthiawe
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23911907 - 12/10/16 12:22 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://www.monsanto.com/products/pages/sorghum.aspx
sorghum is used more as a cover crop in Canada than an actual grain crop, I live about an hour away from Ottawa. You can find 50lb bags of it at any feed store up here. Its more of a grain crop for the Sahel region of Sub-Saharan Africa - in which Monsanto (now FG Bayer) is pushing their GMO crops through parliament now (lived in Ghana for a while, its becoming a hot topic there).
as for using chaff as a substrate, I've only ever seen it used as an additive. That was rice chaff. perhaps your 50 - 50 mix with straw would be a good place to start along with a few comparison bags at 100% chaff and 10% chaff etc.
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Crispykoot
Jello Wrangler



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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: anthiawe]
#23912307 - 12/10/16 07:05 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You don't need all certified inputs to operate under COR in Canada either. You do have to prove that said input is not prohibited and not available organically. That's how people use Amycel 3015 and can still be certified OG.
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Shadowboxing the apocalypse and wandering the land
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Crispykoot]
#23912948 - 12/10/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Small to medium scale farmers can and do grow grain sorghum in Canada, I've witnessed it, so everyone can just drop it with their little google searches. These direct to consumer farms that produce sorghum are not going to be listing their products online, that's not how they move their product. Cover crop "sorghum" is not actual sorghum, it's Sudangrass, a grass hybrid. Industrial farmers can and do spray round-up about 14 days before they harvest their wheat crop so that the combine does not harvest weeds. These things are regularly discussed at Nation Farmer Union meetings, nobody is denying these things take place. This is the internet, we're not going to be changing each other's minds lol.
Quote:
Crispykoot said: You don't need all certified inputs to operate under COR in Canada either. You do have to prove that said input is not prohibited and not available organically. That's how people use Amycel 3015 and can still be certified OG.
Our farm is already certified by probably the most stringent organic standards in all of Canada, IOPA. They actually adhere to the original meaning of organic: to take care of the soil and environment. "Not spraying" is the least stringent standard. We can't even use pressure treated lumber because somewhere down river from that facility, the environment is being damaged by the production of the chemicals used, and the pressure treatment process. Even if it's not our farm causing that damage, we can't be certified if we actively support those practices with our purchases. And I'm happy to pay for organic grain and straw, it would be extremely hypocritical for me not to support other farmers and producers that are also doing their best to care for their soil and the environment and the people they feed.
Crispy, were those moldy totes from Fieldstone, cause that's who I'm waiting to hear back from with a quote.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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anthiawe
friendly stranger


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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23913023 - 12/10/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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corn, soy, and wheat dominate Canadian grain production. sorghum is a light weight, usually used for cover crop and silage, not grain. although i'm sure a few do grow it for grains.
either way, chaff is the point here and can be used in your substrate. I didn't google that, I've seen it
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: anthiawe]
#23913033 - 12/10/16 12:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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--------------------
My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23913076 - 12/10/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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the straw I was using from my neighbor seemed like it was at least 25% chaff by volume. I think the combine shits it out on the stubble before they go back and mow it? Nobody around here planted much wheat last year or this year for that matter though. Hard for these old guys to find help baling. and wheat prices are in the shitter.
Anyway, I think you could go as high as 75% chaff without having issues...just a guess.
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Ferather
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23913172 - 12/10/16 01:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Gr0wer uses soy or soy products, I think he gets more yield or bigger fruits. Almost 100% sure soy has a higher N and protein content.
I use paper pellets that use soy based ink.
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flyontoast
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Ferather]
#23913466 - 12/10/16 03:24 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Gr0wer uses soy or soy products, I think he gets more yield or bigger fruits. Almost 100% sure soy has a higher N and protein content.
I use paper pellets that use soy based ink.
Soy is almost never organic.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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Ferather
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23913733 - 12/10/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Organic soy hull pellets, an example here (Canada).
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drake89
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Ferather]
#23914476 - 12/10/16 08:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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the title says chaffQuote:
Ferather said: Organic soy hull pellets, an example here (Canada).
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MorePies
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23914707 - 12/10/16 10:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey Drake, or anyone. Know anything about coffee chaff? I have been using it lately in small amounts and would like to make it a bigger part of my mix as it's free. I worry it might contain caffeine, caramelized sugar, or tannins that would inhibit mycelium in larger applications.
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drake89
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: MorePies]
#23914829 - 12/10/16 10:53 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MorePies said: Hey Drake, or anyone. Know anything about coffee chaff? I have been using it lately in small amounts and would like to make it a bigger part of my mix as it's free. I worry it might contain caffeine, caramelized sugar, or tannins that would inhibit mycelium in larger applications.
No I don't know, and I can't find aN analysis other than its similar to coffee grounds...
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Ferather
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23915335 - 12/11/16 06:45 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here you go, lots of data on coffee chaff. Pages 7 - 9 for analysis, enjoy.
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Ferather
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: MorePies]
#23915349 - 12/11/16 07:02 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MorePies said: I worry it might contain caffeine, caramelized sugar, or tannins that would inhibit mycelium in larger applications.
Caffeine is broken down into energy and N, Tannins into energy, the only issue is acidity.
Caffeine: C8 | H10 | N4 | O2. Tannins: C76 | H52 | O46.
Even high concentrate is no issue, see here.
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MorePies
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Ferather]
#23915353 - 12/11/16 07:07 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said:
Quote:
MorePies said: Hey Drake, or anyone. Know anything about coffee chaff? I have been using it lately in small amounts and would like to make it a bigger part of my mix as it's free. I worry it might contain caffeine, caramelized sugar, or tannins that would inhibit mycelium in larger applications.
No I don't know, and I can't find aN analysis other than its similar to coffee grounds...
Quote:
Ferather said:
Here you go, lots of data on coffee chaff. Pages 7 - 9 for analysis, enjoy.
Guess I will have to run some trials and see. That's a great find for an analysis Ferather, thank you.
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Ferather
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: MorePies]
#23915355 - 12/11/16 07:11 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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No problem, I've been told I am very resourceful, I blame my ADHD
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flyontoast
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Ferather]
#23916023 - 12/11/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for that link and data Ferather. MorePies, my buddy, does small-scale in a GH as part of a larger vege operation, has been growing on only straw for like 2 years started adding about 20-30% coffee chaff to his straw this season. He said it was a noticeable improvement. He does lime pasteurization.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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drake89
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23916079 - 12/11/16 11:44 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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So wheat hulls are the same as bran or no? According to what I read they are. But it doesn't help that the words husk and hull are sometimes interchanged.
I'm guessing you're able to get the husks/chaff for cheap, and not the hull/bran?
Edited by drake89 (12/11/16 11:48 AM)
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Quadman
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23916178 - 12/11/16 12:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Chaff is the cover that holds the grains in the plant head. Wheat has bearded and none bearded ( whisker like) . Chaff is usually left in the field. Most reliable source of chaff is from a mill where they clean and fan the grain. This results in any residue that is not grain and even some cracked grain and weed seeds = chaff
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Edited by Quadman (12/11/16 12:30 PM)
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flyontoast
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23916237 - 12/11/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: So wheat hulls are the same as bran or no? According to what I read they are. But it doesn't help that the words husk and hull are sometimes interchanged.
I'm guessing you're able to get the husks/chaff for cheap, and not the hull/bran?
My understanding is that chaff=husk=hull, but that different regions and different professions (farmer vs seed producer vs livestock feed) call each "hull" of each grain or seed differently. So, I don't reall hear people saying "bean husk" but rather bean hulls, but a farmer will call it a pod. In the age of the internet, wikipedia uses all of them interchangeably: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husk And I think bran is what's removed when processing wheat into "refined wheat flour". So "whole wheat flour" still has the bran therefore is more nutritious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran So bran is completely different from chaff/husk/hull (or at least to a baker it is lol)
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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drake89
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23916405 - 12/11/16 01:55 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i have grown, picked, shelled, and de-hulled soy for making tempeh. the hulls are paper thin skin that holds the seeds together. that's what they use for pellets. I think the shells would be good for cold pasteurizing if you could get your hands on them.
I wonder if the chaff has enough "fluff" to use it as a substrate alone? have you tried?
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Quadman
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23916462 - 12/11/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Bean hulls are just like popcorn hulls that stick in your teeth. Bean pods are just like pea pods and hold 2-4 soybeans. Pods stay in the field.
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: drake89]
#23917113 - 12/11/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Right, beans and legumes in general is a bad example since I'm wrong about that lol. But the chaff=husk=hull still applies when it comes to seeds/grain: 'The part that gets threshed and/or winnowed'.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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Ferather
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: flyontoast]
#23918789 - 12/12/16 07:38 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you can get tons of wild grass seed for cheap that might work.
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Gr0wer
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Crispykoot]
#23920695 - 12/12/16 07:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Crispykoot said: I use Organic Spelt hulls exclusively for growing Oysters. I love them. Easy to work with. They don't get trich hardly at all. I have about 2.5 years worth of yields in my notes and I get 1# per 1# dry substrate with a very high spawn ratio. Spawn is mixed in at 15L to 150# wet or 50# dry. Makes 50 blocks (bags, each about 6L) Moisture retention is excellent and this yield is on three flushes first being about .5 or more. I haven't used any gypsum or chalk and don't water. Hot water bath pasteurized at 160 for 90 minutes. Drained for 1/2 hour then laid out on plastic 4x8 to cool and dry some. Spawned and mixed when cool enough then bagged and incubated for 2 weeks. $60 for about 800 pounds is what I pay including the tote.
Whats your source for the spelt? Got any contact info?
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Crispykoot
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Re: Grain hulls/chaff as substrate [Re: Gr0wer]
#23921122 - 12/12/16 09:43 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey Grower..I'm up in Canada. I'm sure you can find them down there though...
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Shadowboxing the apocalypse and wandering the land
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