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demiu5
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Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering 1
#23907197 - 12/08/16 02:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering. Obsession is one root, and SPECIFICALLY the desire to instill one's will on anyone or anything outside of oneself is another root. As for the latter root, one could even go so far as to say: AND the desire to instill one's will upon one's own self outside the realms of realistic (which is to say guided by natural properties or laws) physicality...
Intentionally left out of the addendum to the latter root is emotionality. This is because 1) virtually, if not all emotions are malleable, even under the most excruciating of conditions, through both emotional and/or physical means, and 2) many forms of emotion, for the intent and purposes of this discussion, would fall back under the category of obsession.
Are there any other roots you could/would care to add?
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zZZz
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23907466 - 12/08/16 03:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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imho,
desire leads to jealousy, jealously leads to anger, and anger leads to suffering..
but then u have to wonder, what leads one to desire?.. temptation perhaps?.. an idea?..
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: zZZz] 2
#23907602 - 12/08/16 04:23 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zZZz said: imho,
desire leads to jealousy, jealously leads to anger, and anger leads to suffering..
but then u have to wonder, what leads one to desire?.. temptation perhaps?.. an idea?..
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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sudly
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23907796 - 12/08/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
demiu5 said: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering. Obsession is one root, and SPECIFICALLY the desire to instill one's will on anyone or anything outside of oneself is another root. As for the latter root, one could even go so far as to say: AND the desire to instill one's will upon one's own self outside the realms of realistic (which is to say guided by natural properties or laws) physicality...
I like.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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yeah



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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: zZZz]
#23907935 - 12/08/16 06:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I divide desire into two categories. Pure and unpure.
You know a desire is pure if it never goes away. Then, you have to exert your will to manifest it, or else suffer.
--------------------
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demiu5
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: yeah]
#23908284 - 12/08/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said: I divide desire into two categories. Pure and unpure.
You know a desire is pure if it never goes away. Then, you have to exert your will to manifest it, or else suffer.
i like this, in a way.
i will ponder a more thorough response. probably won't have net access tomorrow, but in due time.
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23908314 - 12/08/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Craving
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23908322 - 12/08/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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What's the distinction in flavor when in a sexual dance with a partner and the chemistry is mutual? Does the beam tip towards desire or obsession, or does it just fall into the ocean of primordial force?
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viktor
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: yeah]
#23908377 - 12/08/16 08:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said: You know a desire is pure if it never goes away. Then, you have to exert your will to manifest it, or else suffer.
I dunno about this. This sounds like it leads to the "twin flame" bullshit that just causes so much needless misery to the gullible.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: viktor]
#23908877 - 12/08/16 11:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
yeah said: You know a desire is pure if it never goes away. Then, you have to exert your will to manifest it, or else suffer.
I dunno about this. This sounds like it leads to the "twin flame" bullshit that just causes so much needless misery to the gullible.
it does not hold because some people can grow a desire for something that is self destructive, etc.
Aka someone with a ferocious drug addiction, someone with a homicidal fantasy etc.
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viktor
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: The Blind Ass]
#23909101 - 12/09/16 03:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sure, I've had repeated, intrusive, intense-as-fuck homicidal fantasies for the last 20 years. I'm on antipsychotics for them.
Luckily I don't consider them pure though.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: viktor] 1
#23909497 - 12/09/16 08:49 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Seems like we're looking for caveats or a way to make some desires okay. If you're okay with a desire, then it's okay. There's nobody at the top to tell you otherwise though I think if we're honest all desires contain some component of suffering.
Also, the items listed in the OP are just different types of desires. No need to make things more complex than they already are.
The phrase "desire is the root of suffering" is a hard line stance but also very honest. Us humans don't get to experience nirvana in a static way and we're going to suffer. If we could vanquish all desire we would no longer suffer... but we don't want that. To be human or not to be human is the question. The answer for basically 100% of the population is to be human. Even those who say they don't want to be human still want to be human. They're just lying to themselves, a sure sign of a desire.
I guess a good question for the thread would be, is physical pain without a desire for it's end a type of suffering? If there was no mental anguish would it be suffering? Would it hurt? Is hurt suffering?
Final note: According to the Buddha's words he contradicted his enlightenment by continuing to eat food and drink water, and doing everything else he did. He indicated that he remained on Earth not for himself, but to help others end their suffering. That is a desire. He was a Bodhisattva and did not reach full enlightenment, otherwise he would have dropped to the ground and remained there until he expired from dehydration.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: yeah]
#23909927 - 12/09/16 11:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeah: i would like to add to your "pure and impure" concept. Both pure and impure have two branches in relation to their duration in the mind, 1) active, and 2) passive. Some things exist actively in the mind, such as the desire for nourishment or a relative degree of comfort (think temperature or staying dry), while others wax and wane based on any given number of conditions, such as the desire to "go home" that often nears towards the end of a work day [away from one's home, for you unlucky bastards ].
Another distinction came to mind last nite. After much thought, i determined that obsession and the inability of "letting go" are not the same. Personal example: i'm not obsessed with my deceased cat, friend, and adventure buddy. i do not consciously think about her every day; sometimes many days pass with her memory not appearing consciously or subconciously. However i miss the hell out of her, wish there was some way she was physically here alive, and dream about her weekly (she died a year and a half ago). No aspect of my life, though, comes to a halt when her memory arises. I can appreciate that she is no longer bound to this world in flesh without being sad.
Quote:
zZZz said imho, desire leads to jealousy, jealously leads to anger, and anger leads to suffering..
i really like yeah's distinction of pure and impure desire, pure being static, impure being temporary. In reference to the above quote using those distinctions, i would say both jealousy and anger have the tendency to be either but are much more likely to be impure. Anger especially, i feel, is most often impure due to the amount of energy anger "takes" and physical/emotional duress that is often induced as a result of anger. It is hard to maintain, actively at least, for extended periods of time. That being said, i think anger, though not static, can survive longer in the mind than jealousy, often lying dormant for years or decades before being triggered. Further, anger has the potential to be healed through acceptance, understanding, and forgiveness; whereas jealousy is less likely to result in a positive or neutral outcome, and either festers or subsides having taken its emotional toll.
Quote:
but then u have to wonder, what leads one to desire?.. temptation perhaps?.. an idea?..
i think both.
idea ------> jealousy temptation ------> idea ------> jealousy what about those awkward years of puberty where, seemingly, no thoughts or temptations that could be associated with sexual desire arise, yet hormonal/cardiovascular tendencies at that period result in sexual arousal that then leads to either an idea of... or directly to temptation? (such as hormones ------> horny ------> touching oneself/masturbation [being the temptation])
it's funny you bring up jealousy, as before the base idea arose that sprung into this thread, i had almost completed a fairly long-winded post concerning status and jealousy. instead of devoting a new thread to it as was originally intended, it will exist here:
This is a long round-trip, so please bare with me.
What is the mentality or drive, if any, outside the desire for power over another and/or for accumulation of physical resources/possessions, that creates, cultivates, and spawns status? How is it that the majority of humans, myself included, cannot fully move past physical/emotional jealousy? To further obscure this, I can slightly differentiate between desire and jealousy; jealousy = desire BUT desire =/= jealousy.
Even among young children interacting, with little way to comprehend the complexities of current socio-status or socio-political systems, it can be seen: one child having an object while another child does not. The "does not" child, on the basis of not having, proceeds to [attempt to] take possession of the other child's object. Sometimes the child maintains interest in the item but, more often than not, the child quickly loses interest in the object and discards it, being content once again as a "does not" child. Why is it that, after executing its will, the child becomes content in both children being "not having?" Would either child be content if they both were "have" children, or would one still want more?
Certainly this is not always the case. There exists the potential for a plethora of other factors to be at play. One being base animal dominance with physical size/strength as a factor; are infantile children (maybe at this age they would be considered toddlers?....i don't know proper terminology on this matter) so aware of their own bodies, as well as the bodies of others around them, that they are able to determine potential outcomes such as this? Another would be that the child is incredibly observant of their surroundings at home, witnessing parents, siblings, etc. physically struggling over objects themselves, assimilates this as normal, "acceptable" behavior, and consequently acts in the same manner; though at this point, one must wonder if it is then actually about desiring an object, simply behaving as one accepts/expects others [to] do, or both. Further, what if desire OF an object is not the situation at all, rather a curiosity to explore one's surroundings, especially at that developmental of an age, so strongly that others are outright disregarded along the pathway to exploring that curiosity; possessing the object is a means to an end of learning.
In relation to "wanting more", i see first-hand the destruction of land, relationships, mass-consumption of both renewable and non-renewable resources, soil degradation, water(shed) degradation including habitat, disrespect towards fellow citizens, disrespect for the safety of others (by and towards motorists, pedestrians, cyclists), and on and on, all because an overwhelming majority of people in this "community" can't establish, if even conceive of, when "enough is enough", that there is even a point of satiation. By "enough is enough", I mean when one has more resources (financial, geographic, physical-possessions, sexual) than is needed to meet or exceed their own lives; maybe this includes their childrens' lives; or maybe their grandchildrens' lives; all things in parentheses above are chronically associated with status. This is just in the name of cannabis, one industry, within one few-square-mile locality and doesn't even account for the tens-of-thousands of acres that are actively being logged with all that results in.
Does status = power? It is not direct physical assertion, but a socio-emotional assertion, internally and, upon occasion, externally, validated most often through any form of accumulation of wealth, be it food/water, other natural resources, physical "products" of varying industries, tattoos, large anteriors or posteriors, greying hair?. How does this translate? Is it merely similar to fiat currencies, in which the basis for it's existence, implementation, and impact is an overarching agreement among a mass of people, whether they are aware of their acceptance of the agreement or not?
Edited by demiu5 (12/09/16 11:59 AM)
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: viktor] 1
#23909957 - 12/09/16 11:57 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
yeah said: You know a desire is pure if it never goes away. Then, you have to exert your will to manifest it, or else suffer.
I dunno about this. This sounds like it leads to the "twin flame" bullshit that just causes so much needless misery to the gullible.
How dare you insinuate that OC is somehow gullible. And how dare you imply that his misery is somehow needless.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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demiu5
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: The Blind Ass]
#23909968 - 12/09/16 12:00 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Craving
personally, i would place craving under obsession, even though it may be short- or long-term. if you can expound upon this, i'd be consider to dig up the plant and gorilla-glue an additional root
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
Edited by demiu5 (12/09/16 12:55 PM)
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering *DELETED* [Re: demiu5]
#23910151 - 12/09/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: none
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demiu5
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23910207 - 12/09/16 01:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i can't wait for my vacation so i can watch all these videos that everyone keeps uploading with no context
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23910223 - 12/09/16 01:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
demiu5 said: i can't wait for my vacation so i can watch all these videos that everyone keeps uploading with no context

Me too. I just wish I had a vacation, that's what I desire.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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demiu5
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23910310 - 12/09/16 01:56 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
demiu5 said: i can't wait for my vacation so i can watch all these videos that everyone keeps uploading with no context

Me too. I just wish I had a vacation, that's what I desire.
after you "retire" from your landlord duties, what will be stopping you? my last "vacation" wasn't a vacation, as the few days i had not de-hoarding a house was spent being sick from de-hoarding a house. nothing like flying on a plane with a major sinus infection....wahooo!
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Alyssa
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23910447 - 12/09/16 02:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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The sole root of suffering is necessity.
-------------------- I'm Alyssa. I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart. I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.
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sudly
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: Alyssa]
#23910501 - 12/09/16 02:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Injustice is natural folks.
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viktor
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: Rahz] 1
#23911304 - 12/09/16 07:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: He was a Bodhisattva and did not reach full enlightenment, otherwise he would have dropped to the ground and remained there until he expired from dehydration.
I guess this is a major difference between Buddhism and Taoism. In Taoism the enlightened man just fulfills his role within Nature. There's no need to make a big dramatic scene about it.
In Taoism is doesn't matter if your role is to do this or to do that, you just naturally do it (and thereby live and act in harmony with the Tao) or suffer.
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: viktor] 1
#23911394 - 12/09/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think it would be the opposite of dramatic to the enlightened, but is also a fiction to leave in such a way while the body is young, with only nirvana. Or to live in such a way with no mind.
But that doesn't mean I disagree with your comments on Tao, just that I doubt it's absolute absolution. I think The Buddha was taking the idea to it's logical conclusion as a matter of intellectual integrity. What's left is to have some humility and understanding for one's humanness.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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akira_akuma
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: Rahz] 1
#23911821 - 12/09/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering
the need to control is the root of suffering; and people are controlled by confusion, and confused by control.
the Tao, the Good Life, Do-Easy...all good perspectives to combat this necessity.
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: akira_akuma] 1
#23911957 - 12/10/16 01:16 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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If I remember correctly the rationale might be as follows:
why is desire said to cause suffering? simply because desire and contentment are opposed thus desire does not cause suffering it is suffering (especially by comparison with contentment and peace)
that is the logic
but in practice basic desires for water, food, air, & sleep etc do not cause problems, whereas ones for the latest designer clothing that is supposed to be 'cool', ultimately fail to satisfy and also they strengthen ego and any satisfaction they give is temporary ... and then .... so another desire arises which it is hoped will bring lasting satisfaction and again any satisfaction given is temporary ... and so the search for happiness thru satisfying wants is endless
thus one could say true contentment, or the only contentment worth the name, is contentment with that is undisturbed by moments of discontent.
thus one could say true patience, or the only patience worth the name, is patience with that is undisturbed by moments of feeling some frustration.
Desire is a contraction, of the focus of attention and with perhaps a subtle undercurrent of feeling of neediness whereas... Allowing space which accepts the world as it is, in the present moment, is a more mature attitude as opposed to the contraction, bias & sense of urgency/irritation that accompanies desire. Allowing and accepting are the same attitudes scientists attempt to cultivate as bias interfears with truth.
Many folks like to argue these ideas. I do not propose to defend them. this is only how I understand the idea at present. YMMV
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demiu5
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: laughingdog]
#23913963 - 12/10/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering
the need to control is the root of suffering; and people are controlled by confusion, and confused by control.
the Tao, the Good Life, Do-Easy...all good perspectives to combat this necessity.
obsession has the tendency to control, or at least strongly influence, the one desiring control
Quote:
Alyssa said: The sole root of suffering is necessity.
humor me: would this apply if you didn't have a fully or properly functioning Central or Peripheral nervous system? or a mental disability located within regions of the brain that process emotions? if one is incapable of experiencing suffering, it would clearly not be "a necessity."
Quote:
laughingdog said: If I remember correctly the rationale might be as follows:
why is desire said to cause suffering? simply because desire and contentment are opposed thus desire does not cause suffering it is suffering (especially by comparison with contentment and peace)
that is the logic
something along the lines of ?
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akira_akuma
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23914002 - 12/10/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
obsession has the tendency to control, or at least strongly influence, the one desiring control
fair point.
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: laughingdog]
#23914300 - 12/10/16 07:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: akira_akuma]
#23914400 - 12/10/16 07:52 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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how do we define desire?
the thought: "it might be nice to have a cookie" hardly qualifies the next thought might be: "perhaps I'd rather have a piece of pie"
perhaps there has to be a choice or focus plus the idea that future satisfaction, that is presently lacking, will be gained plus the idea that this satisfaction will increase personal happiness
thus the argument that simple needs and wants, such as, for water or simple food are harmless as here there is no expectation of increasing happiness by satisfying them and no sense of lacking anything necessary for happiness in becoming aware of simple necessary or basic animal functions
but when unnecessary luxury items, for example, are longed for we overlook that we are creating feelings of lack in ourselves and by focusing on the desired item, missing much of life in the present
even in meditation one can turn meditation into striving, for improvement or enlightenment (or the activity of desiring) hence the saying: "Enlightenment is not the liberation of the self, Rather, enlightenment is liberation from the self.
and again the same idea is in this saying: "There is no way to happiness, happiness is the way" and peace, love, enlightenment, contentment, patience, forgiveness, and mindfulness , etc. may all be substituted for the word 'happiness' in the above.
it seems to me that perhaps what is hinted at is that hidden within desire, is a subtle shortchanging of both our power and responsibility.
thus we could try out some more words: "There is no way to responsibility, responsibility is the way"
and if I consider this experiment:
"There is no way to overcoming procrastination, promptness is the way"
Then desire appears as a form of procrastination, and self disempowerment. thus "I must have a cadillac better than Robert's." is perhaps really "I won't allow myself to be happy till I have a cadillac better than Robert's." here one has both denied one's ability to be spontaneously happy, and delayed it's happening for most likely, a long time.
Maybe the olympics are an example of folks attaching great emotional importance, to an event of very short duration, far ahead in the future, that is totally irrelevant to what makes life meaningful: human relations, expanding awareness, and compassion. These days where the the differences between prizes are only hundredths of a second, the example seems even more stark.
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5] 2
#23914690 - 12/10/16 10:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i kinda take the buddhist route on this matter. i feel as though ignorance is the ultimate root of suffering. Ignorance of things like impermanence causes us to make attachments to things that will inevitably leave us in some way, from objects to relationships to a way of life... Disunion between what we want and what we get makes us feel jealousy, anger, sadness, frustration, anxiety, fear, etc...
-------------------- all that may be wished for will by nature fade to nothing
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sudly
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: virtuous_babe]
#23914818 - 12/10/16 10:49 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I like what you said about 'ignorance of things like impermanence', I think not knowing what goes on in reality can be a burden.
I seem to think that anxieties are influenced by our expectations, to me thoughts are like sitting on a train and once you've started it can be difficult to stop or change what you're thinking of. That's why I think it's important to try and stop yourself from entering negative thought cycles by 'staying at the train station' instead of getting on a thought line and sticking to it because in my experience that has often led me to a cycle of negativity and self doubt.
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laughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: virtuous_babe]
#23914933 - 12/10/16 11:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
virtuous_babe said: ....ignorance of things like impermanence causes us to make attachments to things that will inevitably leave us in some way, from objects to relationships to a way of life... Disunion between what we want and what we get makes us feel jealousy, anger, sadness, frustration, anxiety, fear, etc...
impermanence is of course a factor at a deeper level as is non-self and as you say because of these factors, manifest phenomenon, cannot provide lasting satisfaction
of course consumerism, public relations, and advertising work in the opposite direction in our culture attempting to turn 'wants' into 'needs', for the benefit of the 'consumer economy' and the wealthy and powerful owners of the corporations. One has only to look at our 'culture' to see how successful they have been. Not just the culture, in the sense of fashion, movies, car models, values, opinions--but even also the entire urban landscape in the USA which is a monument to ugliness--the logarithmic rise of the franchises after 1955 turned the country into an homogeneous mass, removing individual character from idiosyncratic locales--travel a thousand miles and the next city and strip mall look the same. We grow up with it and often take it all for granted unless we travel to the old cities of Europe or poorer countries. Then when returning home to the USA the horror of it may strike us.
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Alyssa
consecrated woman ✝️

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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: laughingdog]
#23915602 - 12/11/16 08:57 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Suffering due to the desire for unnecessary things is a psychological pitfall that can be avoided through logic and reason. If you have all your physiological and intellectual necessities satisfied, you should be in a state of profound emotional well-being. Society tricks people into focusing on that which is external to the body and mind, creating desire and hence suffering where there should be none. Whatever it is you want and don't need, just compare your situation to someone suffering from hunger or chronic physical pain.
-------------------- I'm Alyssa. I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart. I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: virtuous_babe] 1
#23916428 - 12/11/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
virtuous_babe said: i kinda take the buddhist route on this matter. i feel as though ignorance is the ultimate root of suffering. Ignorance of things like impermanence causes us to make attachments to things that will inevitably leave us in some way, from objects to relationships to a way of life... Disunion between what we want and what we get makes us feel jealousy, anger, sadness, frustration, anxiety, fear, etc...
I agree with this - life is suffering, but then life is ignorance in a certain way. To be alive is to be ignorant of all other potentials apart from your own life.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: viktor]
#23916622 - 12/11/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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the three roots of negative karma in Buddhism are 1. Hatred, 2. Greed, and 3. Delusion.
All three are Errors that when mixed in with your mental contents provide a source for action (karma) that will carry negative impacts.
the recipe for these, are the roots of good karma. 1. Loving Kindness, 2. Generosity, and 3. Wisdom.
suffering is the essence of bad karma results, and the kernel of suffering in Buddhism is Pain.
this is from the analysis of mind moments in ABHIDHAMMA, while the more pedestrian Wheel of Life issue presents a cycle of rebirth in which desire and attachment have some play.
Personally I do not see that Desire is in any way a bad thing, and I think attachment is fundamental to all things in mind which works associatively. In this area, attachment that resolves as obsession or OCD is very painful.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
#23916652 - 12/11/16 03:20 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i've given lots of loving kindness, generosity and wisdom...i used to let my band stay over practically any day of the week (and O they did), have my room, my couch, my beds (i had two), my weed, my MDMA (i gave away so much MDMA), my time- in order to play, and make music, and watch films, and discuss philosophy, the media, i helped influenced my friend to even get into audio engineering and media due to alot of this time spent (i can't take credit for his decisions, but i'm glad to have helped influence him- he's the only one that "did his thing" and never gave up, so i'm happy for him), i gave people so much of me....and they shat the bed (save that one friend, aforementioned) and basically fucked-off on me, after 5-6 years of this a-constant.
i still feel pain.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
#23916957 - 12/11/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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What do you think of the informal definition of karma?
Quote:
karma: (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
informal: good or bad luck, viewed as resulting from one's actions.
Because isn't karma the result of your present actions and not those of lives you may have or could have had?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (12/11/16 04:56 PM)
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virtuous_babe
Stranger



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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: viktor] 1
#23923780 - 12/13/16 06:42 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i think ignorance is a natural part of the human condition. our instinct is to be selfish and to only understand ourselves, to only take care of ourselves. But defeating that instinct, defeating ignorance, is the path to peace
-------------------- all that may be wished for will by nature fade to nothing
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: virtuous_babe]
#23923812 - 12/13/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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finalexplosion
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23933475 - 12/16/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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its discontentment. Look at the marriage/divorce stat or worse, the amount initiated by women followed by carousel 2.0.
-------------------- The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: finalexplosion]
#23933532 - 12/16/16 07:59 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would say discontentment arises from unrealistic expectations. With the consumer society we live in I guess some people are always convinced there is something or someone better for them so they take what they have for granted, lack appreciation for it and stop communicating well which leads to resentment and eventually divorce.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23933724 - 12/16/16 09:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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well said sudly
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23937096 - 12/18/16 01:53 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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confusion leads to understanding.
confusion it the sole root of suffering.
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fungusfun
Changeling


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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: akira_akuma]
#23937136 - 12/18/16 02:44 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Desire is not the root of suffering. Life without desire, at least at a biological level is impossible.
The root of all suffering is the belief in the illusion that one is a separate entity, and primary effect of that belief is identifying pure undifferentiated mind with a particular body. The secondary effect is that the mind encapsulated by the body desires things for itself and the tertiary effect is suffering as some of those desires must go unfulfilled.
Our fundamental experience is that the body appears within our perception, and as the Zen master Huang Po stated centuries ago, "That which can be perceived cannot be perceiving." Yes, there are individual portals of Mind for without this Supreme Being, which is your fundamental identity, cannot know itself through reflection.
So yes, desire as an illusory fragmentation of pure mind results in suffering, but it is not the root.
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: fungusfun]
#23937162 - 12/18/16 03:22 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
this Supreme Being, which is your fundamental identity, cannot know itself through reflection.
Quoted for well-worded truth.
It is a strange identity to have - one that is always true and existed before language taught us how to think, so not subject to our notions of understanding.
---
Desire I think, if it is burning, if it feels healthy and powerful, can't be a bad thing. I have spent much time suppressing desires only to find it makes me less likely to appreciate life, so less enlightened in that sense.
One must self-mortificate, however, at least somehow, to bring the whole mind under control. You will lose a little humanness in trying to become one with the Divinity, but the pureness of the experience of divine love will compensate for your loss of humanness.
You have to make room for God, by dying to self, self is defined by what you do and what you do is defined by desires.
I don't know. Desire is a cause of suffering, non-desire is also sufferable.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23937323 - 12/18/16 07:32 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I would say discontentment arises from unrealistic expectations. With the consumer society we live in I guess some people are always convinced there is something or someone better for them so they take what they have for granted, lack appreciation for it and stop communicating well which leads to resentment and eventually divorce.
the cycle you describe is endemic to falling out of love - the relationship becomes a chore, the "other" becomes a bore, the "self" becomes a closed door!
The anatomy of "boring" love relationships has to do with thinking that the "other" should bring you the joy, or that there is better pleasure with a different "other".
However, when you put more effort on the improving of the "self", who ever is the other that is involved with the "self" will keep falling in love again.
excellence is seductive, and love is a side effect of being good friends with an excellent lover.
--------------------
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Chadknovsky
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
#23937417 - 12/18/16 08:36 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Should our flesh fail, may our souls find peace in their eternal cycle.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
#23937429 - 12/18/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
sudly said: I would say discontentment arises from unrealistic expectations. With the consumer society we live in I guess some people are always convinced there is something or someone better for them so they take what they have for granted, lack appreciation for it and stop communicating well which leads to resentment and eventually divorce.
the cycle you describe is endemic to falling out of love - the relationship becomes a chore, the "other" becomes a bore, the "self" becomes a closed door!
The anatomy of "boring" love relationships has to do with thinking that the "other" should bring you the joy, or that there is better pleasure with a different "other".
However, when you put more effort on the improving of the "self", who ever is the other that is involved with the "self" will keep falling in love again.
excellence is seductive, and love is a side effect of being good friends with an excellent lover.
What's strange to me is that people take their partners for granted or, in more positive cases, don't question why they've ended up with this other being, as if it weren't strange and random cosmic forces that caused them to be together.
From an outside perspective it all seems so damn random.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23938183 - 12/18/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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those gaps are not related to being excellent, and being excellent is not a formula that all people want - many think it is a waste of time.
to be excellent you have to please yourself, but it is not hedonistic, it is refined or transcendent. always being better than you were.
If you really want to make things better all the time, everything else just falls in place as a side effect.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5] 1
#23938350 - 12/18/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am trying to divert towards simplicity. rather than working for love, I am saying work to be excellent. not by anyone else's measure, just by your own improving standard for your self. that is the journey. in the wake of that, what happens is all lovely side effects, or not. relationships may be part of it. you can only fix the part that is in your self.
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: yeah] 1
#23939653 - 12/19/16 02:26 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said: I divide desire into two categories. Pure and unpure.
You know a desire is pure if it never goes away. Then, you have to exert your will to manifest it, or else suffer.
How is a desire pure if it never goes away? What about some sicko that desires to murder someone, and they can't shake the feeling until their blood lust is satiated? That doesn't seem very pure if you ask me.
I think we can desire to do good in the world, and that should be pursued because it will lead us to growth, but what you said doesn't make much sense to me.
-------------------- ©️
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: Lucis]
#23939674 - 12/19/16 02:56 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe desires are instinctive to each individual
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Zig-Zag
Homeless


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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23957932 - 12/26/16 09:29 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Life is suffering. You can't have the good without the bad. There is a balance you see.
--------------------
“A baby is born into this world in a state of fear. Total paranoia and awareness. He sees the world with eyes not used yet. As he grows up, his parents lay all this stuff on him. They tell him, when they should be letting him tell them. Let the children lead you.”
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: Zig-Zag]
#23958013 - 12/26/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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life is not suffering, without it also being not-suffering. therefore, life IS NOT suffering.
one could say, life is perception. within that perception is and is not suffering
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23958018 - 12/26/16 10:27 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Maybe desires are instinctive to each individual 
why shuffle in the term instinctive here. you have a word disease, aggravated ignoro-phobic poly-verbosis this is what happens when you string words together to say meaningless shit to cover that you don't know what you are talking about.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
#23958815 - 12/26/16 05:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Because sexual desire is pretty natural It's kinda pushed evolution for the past 4 billion years too.
Quote:
Instinctive: relating to or prompted by instinct; done without conscious thought. (of a person) doing or being a specified thing apparently naturally or automatically.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: fungusfun] 1
#23974789 - 01/02/17 01:24 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
fungusfun said:
Desire is not the root of suffering. Life without desire, at least at a biological level is impossible.
Desire isn't the root of suffering. Attachment (clinging) to desire causes suffering.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23974804 - 01/02/17 01:34 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
fungusfun said:
Desire is not the root of suffering. Life without desire, at least at a biological level is impossible.
Desire isn't the root of suffering. Attachment (clinging) to desire causes suffering.
So clinging to desire is the root cause of suffering.
And expectations can become pre-meditated resentments.

So draw back from fantasy, think critically and try to be rational.
Because as John Lennon said.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Loc: USA
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23974833 - 01/02/17 01:51 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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I can only speak for myself. The world is another thing.
People say that desire is the root of suffering, and often miss the bigger point.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23974843 - 01/02/17 01:55 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Mathematics are universal. And I guess I desire scientifically literate understandings.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23974850 - 01/02/17 02:01 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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When a wife kills her husband, how do you explain that, scientifically?
How do you scientifically explain road rage murder?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23974880 - 01/02/17 02:21 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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As a rash choice.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly]
#23975094 - 01/02/17 05:58 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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sex and sexual desire are not the root of all suffering, while ignorant declarations lead to bad shit.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
#23975097 - 01/02/17 06:00 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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Who says desire is all about sex?
One can desire a career too.. or a ham sandwich for that matter.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Rollin.n.Strollin



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Loc: Australia
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: sudly] 1
#23975166 - 01/02/17 06:40 AM (7 years, 28 days ago) |
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A sense of individual willpower used in a fashion of moderation is the key to defining the difference between the desire for something and the unnecessary dependence for the given object.
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blackdragon999
Mason


Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: Desire is not the [sole] root of suffering [Re: demiu5]
#23980864 - 01/04/17 09:14 AM (7 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
demiu5 said:
...Are there any other roots you could/would care to add?.....
I am no expert, but to name a few...
Ginger root: used for relieving digestive problems such as nausea, loss of appetite, motion sickness and pain. This is a good root, when put it into tea you will forget all about your suffering, at least if you having stomach problems.
Ginseng Root: ginseng is often used to fight infections such as colds and flu. There is some evidence that it might help prevent colds and flu and make symptoms milder when infections do occur.(Also serves as good natural stimulant)
The Root of all Evil: It is quite useful for a number of things.
Greek/Latin Roots: These roots make up a large portion of the English language but are somewhat forgotten by current generations and have been mostly replaced by Ebonics and internet slang.
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Edited by blackdragon999 (01/04/17 11:26 PM)
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