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quagmire
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vinegar tek?
#23905484 - 12/07/16 11:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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ok please don't laugh yet.
i'm porposing something like
4 g dried cyanescens 20% acetic acid (not always easy to find) coffee filter some sort of buffer
maybe some oil to make salad dressing?
the idea is to replace the lemon with the much stronger 20% acetic acid, then after treating th material, remove the solution, buffer it up to normal vinegar strength, then make salad dressing
thoughts?
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Ancestoralbeings
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Why not just use vinegar and mix it with some type of vinegarette? (or however it's spelled)
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lukehighwalker710
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Very cool idea. You should definitely try it and report back! May require heating also? Water?
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BeLove111


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honestly lemon juice works perfectly fine there is no need to have a higher acidity. Just make sure you grind up your mushrooms nice and fine before soaking. I like to soak a good couple of hours as well, I mix with warm water and VOILA! a potent, smooth journey will be had. No nausea, no funkiness, just pure healing. All the best
-------------------- May ALL beings be happy. May ALL beings be free from suffering. May ALL beings be compassionate.
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Ancestoralbeings
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Quote:
BeLove111 said: honestly lemon juice works perfectly fine there is no need to have a higher acidity. Just make sure you grind up your mushrooms nice and fine before soaking. I like to soak a good couple of hours as well, I mix with warm water and VOILA! a potent, smooth journey will be had. No nausea, no funkiness, just pure healing. All the best
I think he wanted to infuse it with a salad dressing or something.
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Lucid Dreamer
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Vinegar does not contain the antioxidant ascorbic acid. That's what makes lemon tek work, it prevents degradation and increases bioavailability.
For example, when you take shrooms about 50% of the psilocybin is degradated before reaching your noggin, our body is very good at degrading "toxins", as an antioxidant ascorbic acid would slow down this degradation.
If you lemon tek it correctly, your tea should not turn blue, blue means oxidation.
You gotta be careful, i've seen people having ego deaths with just 2 grams.
Edited by Lucid Dreamer (12/08/16 06:34 PM)
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Ancestoralbeings
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Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said: Vinegar does not contain the antioxidant ascorbic acid. That's what makes lemon tek work, it prevents degradation and increases bioavailability.
For example, when you take shrooms about 50% of the psilocybin is degradated before reaching your noggin, our body is very good at degrading "toxins", as an antioxidant ascorbic acid would slow down this degradation.
No, what makes lemon tek work is the low PH levels. Psilocybin is not active, psilocin is. Psilocybin get's converted into psilocin in your stomach acid, and than goes through your liver. Lemon juice or anything acidic will also do this. It makes for a fast come up, and more intense trip because there's less time your body has to convert and digest anything. Vinegar has about a 2.4 ph level. Lemon juice has a 2 ph level. Vinegar would work.
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Lucid Dreamer
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Quote:
Ancestoralbeings said:
Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said: Vinegar does not contain the antioxidant ascorbic acid. That's what makes lemon tek work, it prevents degradation and increases bioavailability.
For example, when you take shrooms about 50% of the psilocybin is degradated before reaching your noggin, our body is very good at degrading "toxins", as an antioxidant ascorbic acid would slow down this degradation.
No, what makes lemon tek work is the low PH levels. Psilocybin is not active, psilocin is. Psilocybin get's converted into psilocin in your stomach acid, and than goes through your liver. Lemon juice or anything acidic will also do this. It makes for a fast come up, and more intense trip because there's less time your body has to convert and digest anything. Vinegar has about a 2.4 ph level. Lemon juice has a 2 ph level. Vinegar would work.
Sorry but all you've read on shroomery are just a misinterpretation of how it works, our stomach acid is already extremely acidic, the ph can be as low as 1.5.
The stomach acid doesn't play any role at converting psilocybin to psilocin, neither does lemon juice.
When ingested, psilocybin is dephosphorylated to its phosphate ester, psilocin, by our "alkaline phosphatase"(not our stomach acid), "alkaline phosphatase" is an enzyme present both in the brush border of the intestines and in the liver.

It removes the phosphate group from psilocybin then leaving psilocin to be passed along through the bloodstream.

Enzymes have one function only, and work like a key that fits in a lock. Only when the RIGHT ENZYME finds the right material it can work upon, does a biochemical reaction occur.
Some enzymes help break large molecules into smaller pieces that are more easily absorbed by the body. Other enzymes help bind two molecules together to produce a new molecule.
Edited by Lucid Dreamer (12/08/16 11:56 PM)
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krypto2000
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The acid in the lemon tek is why it works, though ime ascorbic acid does help because it prevents psilocin from being oxidized. Psilocybin is a lot more stable and you don't have to worry about it oxidizing. The acid makes the enzymes already present in the mushrooms/tea dephosphorylate the psilocybin to psilocin, that is at least part of why the tek works. I think it likely has a lot to do with simply extracting the alkaloids as well though as regular tea has a similar effect. Whether the anti oxidant effect works in the stomach I don't know, but I don't suspect it has much to do with it personally.
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Lucid Dreamer
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Bro, two words "Alkaline Phosphatase". You didn't even bother doing a search.
Edited by Lucid Dreamer (12/08/16 10:21 PM)
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krypto2000
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I don't know what your point is and I'm not sure you do either, did you even read my post or did you just not understand it? Alkaline phosphatase isn't going to dephosphorlyate something that's not phosphorlyated to begin with, bro.
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quagmire
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hmmm
I'm most interested in Lucid Dreamer's answer as it demolishes the hole premise of my little proposal here...
for the other replies - note that 20% acetic acid has a pH MUCH lower than lemon juice. You guys are thinking of 4 or 5% acetic acid.
Also the reason for a buffer is you cannot ingest 20% acetic acid. it will freaking burn you pretty bad! If the acid is what makes lemon tek work, I was hoping to use a stronger acid but then i need a way to ingest it.
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P.Zappatecorum
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Quote:
Ancestoralbeings said:
Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said: Vinegar does not contain the antioxidant ascorbic acid. That's what makes lemon tek work, it prevents degradation and increases bioavailability.
For example, when you take shrooms about 50% of the psilocybin is degradated before reaching your noggin, our body is very good at degrading "toxins", as an antioxidant ascorbic acid would slow down this degradation.
No, what makes lemon tek work is the low PH levels. Psilocybin is not active, psilocin is. Psilocybin get's converted into psilocin in your stomach acid, and than goes through your liver. Lemon juice or anything acidic will also do this. It makes for a fast come up, and more intense trip because there's less time your body has to convert and digest anything. Vinegar has about a 2.4 ph level. Lemon juice has a 2 ph level. Vinegar would work.
Psilocin oxidizes fast and is unstable though, thus the ascorbic acid keeping it from oxidizing. Both of you are half right.  Tea works well because psilocybin is a pro-drug meaning you actually trip off the psilocin, it is already in solution and converted to the form your body will use and you absorb the entire instantaneously, thus the fast come up and shorter acting time. It's not as noticeable on the smaller more potent mushrooms though, because they already digest pretty fast, but compared to eating a lot of raw, weak fresh cubes on a full stomach, the increase in uptake with tea would be noticeable.
My question is, my tea tek is down and it tastes great. One cup of nice tasting tea and I'm flying. Why would you want nasty ass vinegar to choke down? Like, really, you're going to eat it on a salad? Seems kind of pointless to me, but I've never been one to make shroom pizza or any other creative foodie way of ingesting drugs.
Edited by P.Zappatecorum (12/08/16 11:32 PM)
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Lucid Dreamer
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: I don't know what your point is and I'm not sure you do either, did you even read my post or did you just not understand it? Alkaline phosphatase isn't going to dephosphorlyate something that's not phosphorlyated to begin with, bro.
So what the chemical name O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine means to you?
I think you should stop arguing about things you don't understand, you're just embarrassing yourself
At least do a search
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Lucid Dreamer
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Quote:
Psilocin oxidizes fast and is unstable though, thus the ascorbic acid keeping it from oxidizing. Both of you are half right.  Tea works well because psilocybin is a pro-drug meaning you actually trip off the psilocin, it is already in solution and converted to the form your body will use and you absorb the entire instantaneously, thus the fast come up and shorter acting time. It's not as noticeable on the smaller more potent mushrooms though, because they already digest pretty fast, but compared to eating a lot of raw, weak fresh cubes on a full stomach, the increase in uptake with tea would be noticeable.
Lol I give up this kindergarten shit, you guys don't even read.
Edited by Lucid Dreamer (12/08/16 11:53 PM)
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quagmire
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Quote:
P.Zappatecorum said:
Quote:
Ancestoralbeings said:
Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said: Vinegar does not contain the antioxidant ascorbic acid. That's what makes lemon tek work, it prevents degradation and increases bioavailability.
For example, when you take shrooms about 50% of the psilocybin is degradated before reaching your noggin, our body is very good at degrading "toxins", as an antioxidant ascorbic acid would slow down this degradation.
No, what makes lemon tek work is the low PH levels. Psilocybin is not active, psilocin is. Psilocybin get's converted into psilocin in your stomach acid, and than goes through your liver. Lemon juice or anything acidic will also do this. It makes for a fast come up, and more intense trip because there's less time your body has to convert and digest anything. Vinegar has about a 2.4 ph level. Lemon juice has a 2 ph level. Vinegar would work.
Psilocin oxidizes fast and is unstable though, thus the ascorbic acid keeping it from oxidizing. Both of you are half right.  Tea works well because psilocybin is a pro-drug meaning you actually trip off the psilocin, it is already in solution and converted to the form your body will use and you absorb the entire instantaneously, thus the fast come up and shorter acting time. It's not as noticeable on the smaller more potent mushrooms though, because they already digest pretty fast, but compared to eating a lot of raw, weak fresh cubes on a full stomach, the increase in uptake with tea would be noticeable.
My question is, my tea tek is down and it tastes great. One cup of nice tasting tea and I'm flying. Why would you want nasty ass vinegar to choke down? Like, really, you're going to eat it on a salad? Seems kind of pointless to me, but I've never been one to make shroom pizza or any other creative foodie way of ingesting drugs. 
it's curiosity. also I read about lemon tek and was like why use such a weak acid?
also i do like vinegar.
Edited by quagmire (12/09/16 12:18 AM)
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quagmire
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Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said:
Quote:
Psilocin oxidizes fast and is unstable though, thus the ascorbic acid keeping it from oxidizing. Both of you are half right.  Tea works well because psilocybin is a pro-drug meaning you actually trip off the psilocin, it is already in solution and converted to the form your body will use and you absorb the entire instantaneously, thus the fast come up and shorter acting time. It's not as noticeable on the smaller more potent mushrooms though, because they already digest pretty fast, but compared to eating a lot of raw, weak fresh cubes on a full stomach, the increase in uptake with tea would be noticeable.
Lol I give up this kindergarten shit, you guys don't even read.
I'm reading what you are saying, sorry for not replying directly to it.
I am not sure what all the answers are but one problem with your explanation of enzymes is that they just lower the amount of energy needed to achieve a reaction. it's not exactly like a key that fits a lock.
the other thing is - so lemon tek is bullshit? I haven't tried yet, don't have an opinion
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Lucid Dreamer
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Quote:
I am not sure what all the answers are but one problem with your explanation of enzymes is that they just lower the amount of energy needed to achieve a reaction. it's not exactly like a key that fits a lock.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/add_aqa_pre_2011/enzymes/enzymes1.shtml
Quote:
the other thing is - so lemon tek is bullshit? I haven't tried yet, don't have an opinion
No, it's not bullshit.
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krypto2000
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Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said:
Quote:
krypto2000 said: I don't know what your point is and I'm not sure you do either, did you even read my post or did you just not understand it? Alkaline phosphatase isn't going to dephosphorlyate something that's not phosphorlyated to begin with, bro.
So what the chemical name O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine means to you?
I think you should stop arguing about things you don't understand, you're just embarrassing yourself
At least do a search
As I said it gets dephosphylated in the acidic solution due to phosphatase enzymes already present in the solution which are much more effective in an acidic environment. I'm not disputing psilocybin is dephosphorylated in the body, that's common knowledge, but I am disputing that when doing the lemon tek properly there will be no appreciable amount of psilocybin left to dephosphorylate. This is a well documented fact. Why don't you do a search and stop embarrassing your self. If you want to dispute what I'm saying the give a reason if not a documented source. I can easily pull a source for mine if you need to see it.
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Lucid Dreamer
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Quote:
As I said it gets dephosphylated in the acidic solution due to phosphatase enzymes already present in the solution
Wow you seem very knowledgeable about it. What kind of acidic solution have you been using which has the phosphatase enzymes already present in it?
Do you extract the phosphatase enzymes from your cat's liver and then make a solution? I'm very intrigued
From what i'm aware of, acids do not dephosphorylate psilocybin, or anything else for that matter. de/phosphorylation is an enzymatic process, linked to words like phosphatase. citric, ascorbic, and hydrochloric acids don't do that.
Edited by Lucid Dreamer (12/09/16 01:12 PM)
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Ancestoralbeings
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Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said:
Quote:
Ancestoralbeings said:
Quote:
Lucid Dreamer said: Vinegar does not contain the antioxidant ascorbic acid. That's what makes lemon tek work, it prevents degradation and increases bioavailability.
For example, when you take shrooms about 50% of the psilocybin is degradated before reaching your noggin, our body is very good at degrading "toxins", as an antioxidant ascorbic acid would slow down this degradation.
No, what makes lemon tek work is the low PH levels. Psilocybin is not active, psilocin is. Psilocybin get's converted into psilocin in your stomach acid, and than goes through your liver. Lemon juice or anything acidic will also do this. It makes for a fast come up, and more intense trip because there's less time your body has to convert and digest anything. Vinegar has about a 2.4 ph level. Lemon juice has a 2 ph level. Vinegar would work.
Sorry but all you've read on shroomery are just a misinterpretation of how it works, our stomach acid is already extremely acidic, the ph can be as low as 1.5.
The stomach acid doesn't play any role at converting psilocybin to psilocin, neither does lemon juice.
When ingested, psilocybin is dephosphorylated to its phosphate ester, psilocin, by our "alkaline phosphatase"(not our stomach acid), "alkaline phosphatase" is an enzyme present both in the brush border of the intestines and in the liver.

It removes the phosphate group from psilocybin then leaving psilocin to be passed along through the bloodstream.

Enzymes have one function only, and work like a key that fits in a lock. Only when the RIGHT ENZYME finds the right material it can work upon, does a biochemical reaction occur.
Some enzymes help break large molecules into smaller pieces that are more easily absorbed by the body. Other enzymes help bind two molecules together to produce a new molecule.
What study is this from? None. There hasn't been any on it. yes i know about enzymes as well. You made up the reason it works inside your brain. There is proof that the reason psilocybin works is you stomach acid.
I also see a ban in your future
Edited by Ancestoralbeings (12/09/16 01:28 PM)
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Lucid Dreamer
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All I did was break it down into simpler concepts:
http://itech.dickinson.edu/chemistry/?p=916
Look for Occurrence and Use of Hallucinogenic Mushrooms Containing Psilocybin Alkaloids.
It's all on the scientific literature, if you don't have competence to do a proper search, that's not my problem.
People like you represent the word stupidity. All you do is spout off information with no basis, no facts, forming opinions based on gossip and what's popular.
Edited by Lucid Dreamer (12/09/16 02:10 PM)
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Ancestoralbeings
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NO studies have been done on the "lemon tek" You're quoting things that aren't even relevant, please stop spreading false information.
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krypto2000
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You clearly did not read my original post, I explained it there. The acid has no phosphatase enzymes the mushrooms do. The acidic environment increases the activity of the enzymes which are always going to be present if you do a water extraction such as making tea, the lemon tek, etc. It will happen without the acid as well, it's just slower. Here is one of the first credible sources I found googling it since you seem so hard pressed to ignore what I'm saying. Check page 47:
Quote:
The chemiluminescence responses from each extract utilizing acidic potassium permanganate and tris(2,2 0 -bipyridyl)ruthe- nium(III) are shown in Fig. 1. Extraction numbers 3 and 4 were the only methods where both psilocin and psilocybin were detected. Similar concentrations of psilocin were observed using methods 1 and 2. Extraction meth- ods 1 and 2 both required the use of aqueous acetic acid as the extraction solvent. This is a suitable extraction solvent as both psilocin and psilocybin are very soluble in dilute acetic acid, and very little other interfering substances are extracted (23). Howev- er, the heating of the acid extract in method 1 led to the de- phosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin. This was evident as no chemiluminescence was elicited upon reaction with tris(2,2 0 - bipyridyl)ruthenium(III), Fig. 1.
The neutralization process required in extraction method 2 to keep the pH below pH 8.5, was to avoid base facilitated destruc- tion of psilocybin. It is quite surprising that no chemiluminescence was elicited upon reaction with tris(2,2 0 -bipyridyl)ruthenium(III), Fig. 1. It has been reported that enzymes of the phosphatase type can be extracted with aqueous acetic acid in contrast to organic solvents (36), thus facilitating the dephosphorylation process
I've done this myself and I've read it from numerous sources from forum posts to published studies, I know what I'm talking about. Maybe don't be so arrogant and insulting towards someone if you can't manage to even read and understand the position which you're arguing against.
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BeLove111


Registered: 12/05/16
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I have no studies or scientific information to say this converts to that which is then converted by the liver to this.... i appreciate that information and those who are skilled at that. all i know is the lemon tek works incredibly well for me, the journey is definitely noticeably smoother and deeper, and it is the only way i consume mushrooms now (lemon tek in a tea+eating raw cacao nibs) The mushrooms for some reason love the spirit of chocolate and they synergize like a loving couple.
-------------------- May ALL beings be happy. May ALL beings be free from suffering. May ALL beings be compassionate.
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wolf8312
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I've only tried vinegar tek and whole shrooms never lemmon tek.
In comparison to whole shrooms VT it is more potent and consistent in its effect (no up and down waves) faster acting, and with a shorter duration. Sounds like Lemmon tek to me.
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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quagmire
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i guess yeah ok enzymes act like keys - but i should have said using the lock isn't always the only way through the door. sometimes you can bash it down.
ok so if we need an enzymatic reaction I don't see how the lemon is adding anything. it's not that acidic compared to the stomach and you're saying the magic happens later. and all the descriptions I'm reading just sound like my tea trips tea to me. what if i make a very fine powder out of the dried mushroom? Adding surface area should have much bigger effects than lowering the pH a bit, no?
has anyone looked into chitinase?
sorrry questions
Edited by quagmire (12/10/16 12:40 AM)
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quagmire
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aha ok i was to sleepy to read right yesterday. so the necessary enzyme is in the mushroom already. if i remember correctly this is related to the blueing reaction. this should have occured to me as im very fond of beano - which is a human digestive enzyme extracted from aspergillus
that means any old acid should do the trick, and a stronger acid should work better than a weaker one, so the 20% acetic acid might just be very effective. I'm still wondering about chitinase - for instance would vinegar made from bananas contain enough chitinase to accelerate the breakdown of the mushroom enough to make a difference in availability of components? or maybe a papaya preparation?
Edited by quagmire (12/10/16 11:26 AM)
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krypto2000
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The alkaloids are very readily extracted from the fruit bodies, water alone does just dine, no need for digestive enzymes or anything. It's not necessarily true that a higher acid content will do anything either, I don't suspect it would, and then you will have to consume that nasty drink too. If you want to speed up the conversion heating the liquid will do, in an extraction I've read they extract it with 1% GAA (vinegar is 3-5$ generally, so already much stronger) and then bring the solution to 70C which completely dephosphorylates it. You're kind of right with the bluing, it is caused by a breakdown product of psilocin, so the enzymes converting the much more stable psilocybin to psilocin facilitates its further breakdown to cause the well known bluing. If you use some abscorbic acid this bluing will not happen ime which will preserve more of your alkaloids and lead to a stronger experience.
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quagmire
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chitinase would be about pre-digesting the chitin though. I suppose not an issue for everyone but my gut isnt great at it and it gives me mushroom belly. some of the more dense edibles do it too unless i puree them
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quagmire
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ok after all the reading, I came to the conclusion that it's a just lemon flavored tea.
So I scrapped everything and ate 7g of cyans straight up in one go, lots of chewing. Really how fast I came up was pretty irrelevant to my dead ego.
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