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Offlinetedoro
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boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question.
    #23899533 - 12/06/16 10:41 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Hello~

RR once said in this forum that you can't have your rye too dry. I took that to heart and steam off lots of excess water.

But now I worry that my pre-boiling of the grains is inadequate/undercooked.

following RR rye berry tek.

I use 25 cups of rye berries. Soak overnight. bring to a boil in a 4 gallon pot for 15 minutes.

BUT! Last week I mistakenly left it boiling for an hour, and the berries swelled up so much more than when I cut it off at 15 minutes. They also busted, and threw starch everywhere. I decided to toss them. But it got me thinking that I might not be cooking my berries enough, then drying them too much, then having hard to inoculate bags. (which I am struggling with)

Can anyone speak to this?

Thanks, T


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


Edited by tedoro (12/06/16 10:43 AM)


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OfflineAlCapone2k
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: tedoro]
    #23899564 - 12/06/16 10:52 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

In my opinion and from my experience, Myc seems to dislike starchy environments and bursted rye berries. The best results I had with rye were when the rye berries didn't burst at all but have this kind of white core while cooking.

The worst results I had with a lot of bursted berries because I forgot them on the stove.

Furthermore it's hard to shake a jar with starchy rye berries.


So in my opinion you better stay with your 15 minutes cooking(not simmering, real cooking).


--------------------
Since I am from Germany, my english is not perfect but I try my best :smile:




My small Agar to Oyster Open Air Grow Trek


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: AlCapone2k]
    #23899573 - 12/06/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Cooking, not Simmering. I think that is the key. I am suspicious that my large pot bubbles a bit from the bottom and I think that is cooking. I need an honest 15 minutes of a rolling boil. And shoot for no bursted kernels. I've never had bursted kernels until last week.


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


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OfflineAlCapone2k
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: tedoro]
    #23899633 - 12/06/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, I really boil. After soaking for at least 20 hours and maximum of 24 hours (just "over night" could also mean 8 hours, which could be a bit too less) I take a wooden spoon, mix the whole thing because of the gypsum that settles on the top and the bottom and then I put it onto my gas stove. 5 Minutes at low temperature (high temp fluctuation leads to bursting) and then I put the stove on the highest temperature until the thing is boiling. When it's boiling, I just give it a stire every 2 minutes to see if they are bursting.

When I see the first bursted rye berry, I take the pot directly off the stove.


If more than 10% is bursted, I toss the rye berries and start new. This isn't necessary but I don't want the last step to fail after I worked so much on inoculating agar plates, transfers, clean up and so on.


regards


--------------------
Since I am from Germany, my english is not perfect but I try my best :smile:




My small Agar to Oyster Open Air Grow Trek


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InvisibleJohnnyWonder
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: tedoro]
    #23899873 - 12/06/16 12:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

While I have yet to master grain, which is funny bc I can rock PF cakes and cut those up to inoculate bags of compost and manure, I have noticed a common trend regarding moisture content that is independent of the method that is being used.  There is a moisture range under which mycellium will colonize.  It will colonize fastest on the dry side of that range, but if it is too dry, then there is not enough moisture to properly transfer heat during the PC and contamination will become an issue.  When the conditions are too moist, colonization slows and bacteria outpace the mycellium bc they have the moisture they need to propagate and swim about in (a droplet of water is an entire world to these microorganisms).

That being said, one would think that I would have no problem with grain.  I don't know, I have just never been able to get consistent results with it, despite my best efforts and meticulously following the RR's suggestions and the suggestions of others on this forum.  I don't feel too down about it though as there are so many possible vectors as to why I have had poor success with grain and great success with PF cakes.  I will eventually solve the riddle, but until I do, I am happy to use PF cakes with great success to inoculate bags with a recipe I designed using compost and manure with several amendments.


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: JohnnyWonder]
    #23900044 - 12/06/16 02:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

All of this is excellent. I will keep at it. I think I see where I can improve. Many many thanks.

T


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


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InvisibleSirtalis
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: tedoro]
    #23900217 - 12/06/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I had the problem of rye bursting after 5 minutes of boiling.  Not sure what to do about it, maybe simmer so that the grains aren't fully "boiling"?


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: Sirtalis]
    #23900254 - 12/06/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

boil it for less then five minutes....


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OfflineSeedyPea
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: Sirtalis]
    #23900288 - 12/06/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I used to worry that mine looked too dry as well, but after a whole lot of jars and no big losses, I've learned to trust it. I don't boil mine for any specific amount of time really, I stir and watch constantly until I find ONE burst berry, then it's done/ready.  Can't tell you how many times I've panicked thinking my rye was too dry, only to have everything work perfectly.

I will add too, the rye I use absorbs a ridiculous amount of water during the soak, so it takes maybe 5 minutes once I see bubbles in the water.


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OfflineAlCapone2k
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: cronicr]
    #23900295 - 12/06/16 03:38 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Actually then main reason for boiling is the damp drying afterwards :wink: therefore boiling only 5 minutes is absolutely ok. How long did you let them soak before?


--------------------
Since I am from Germany, my english is not perfect but I try my best :smile:




My small Agar to Oyster Open Air Grow Trek


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InvisibleComebackKid
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: AlCapone2k]
    #23900407 - 12/06/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Dude you don't need to boil for long.
Let them soak for 24 hours and they're doubled in size and good to go.
Boiling is only to let the water evaporate quickly off the hot grains.

Next time bring the pot to a boil and watch it.
Remove from the heat as soon as it starts to boil.
Strain.
Then load into jars.


--------------------
:amanita2: Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care :sporedrop:

Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind.
Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind,
is peering in from outside the universe.

Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself


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InvisibleSirtalis
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: AlCapone2k]
    #23900408 - 12/06/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I soaked for 18 hours beforehand.  Getting them to boil helped the drying process for sure.  I had 1 jar out of 6 show a tiny bit of trich with 2 quarter sized mycelium chunks inside.  I just went out to my garden and fished out the mycelium to throw into woodchips (Ps. allenii).  The rye grain was definitely still moist, so it looks like a short boil time is a-ok.


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OfflineAlCapone2k
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: Sirtalis]
    #23900433 - 12/06/16 04:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

18 Hours soaking is fine, just put the pot afterwards on your stove, let it slowly boil (low or mid heat) and when it starts to boil, let it on the stove for a few minutes or until you see a bursted berry and then remove from stove.


--------------------
Since I am from Germany, my english is not perfect but I try my best :smile:




My small Agar to Oyster Open Air Grow Trek


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InvisibleComebackKid
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: AlCapone2k]
    #23900435 - 12/06/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

No offence alcapone but fuck all that.
Max heat and remove as soon as it starts to boil. You achieve the same thing but with no burst grains that way


--------------------
:amanita2: Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care :sporedrop:

Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind.
Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind,
is peering in from outside the universe.

Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself


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OfflineAlCapone2k
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: ComebackKid]
    #23900447 - 12/06/16 04:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

No offence taken, dude!

I do it that way because I have a very strong gas stove. If I directly start with highest heat until boil, the rye berries on the bottom stick to my pot and burst when stiring. I should have mentioned that :smile:


--------------------
Since I am from Germany, my english is not perfect but I try my best :smile:




My small Agar to Oyster Open Air Grow Trek


Edited by AlCapone2k (12/06/16 04:32 PM)


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InvisibleComebackKid
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: AlCapone2k]
    #23900476 - 12/06/16 04:41 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

True, I haven't had that problem with a gas stove yet. Maybe I'm just lucky :shrug:
Mind you, the most grain I've ever cooked at once was only 6 quarts worth. My last batch I didn't even bother stirring lol. I've been gettin lazy :facepalm3:


--------------------
:amanita2: Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care :sporedrop:

Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind.
Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind,
is peering in from outside the universe.

Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself


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OfflineAlCapone2k
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: ComebackKid]
    #23900516 - 12/06/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I think that's normal procedure. When starting with rye, I changed the poly after every usage. Now I haven't changed it for weeks :wink:


--------------------
Since I am from Germany, my english is not perfect but I try my best :smile:




My small Agar to Oyster Open Air Grow Trek


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OfflinepoofterFroth
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: AlCapone2k]
    #23901235 - 12/06/16 08:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Soak + No Cook.

Soak 24 hrs. Strain for couple minutes. Fill jars. PC.

:jointsmile:

Works great.


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InvisibleComebackKid
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: poofterFroth]
    #23901263 - 12/06/16 08:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I thought that's how wbs was prepped. You do that for rye as well?


--------------------
:amanita2: Substrate surface conditions / Monotub prep and care :sporedrop:

Look around you... Everything you see exists inside the mind.
Consciousness, the awareness that is experiencing this mind,
is peering in from outside the universe.

Our individual experiences are all part of the universe's experience of itself


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OfflineLobi
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Re: boiling rye berries pre-PC'ing question. [Re: ComebackKid]
    #23901389 - 12/06/16 08:52 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

After doing 100s of batches of grains I have come to the conclusion soak time does not really matter. It's better to under cook your grains than over cook them. Different grains have different preps. Each kernel has a max capacity of water retention. Figure out what that is and you can rock prep every time.
The grain is going to get cooked more during the pc cycle. You want their to be as little burst grains as possible and max water retention. You can have ridiculously dehydrated/undercooked grains and myc will tear through it. Spawn is meant for expanding culture and providing nutrients. Coir and bulk is for water supply. Make sure your spawn isn't bone dry or bursting every where and that it's clean and you'll be good.
My friend Cameron preps his Milo in his grow bags. No soak. Dumps into grow bag with measured amount of water and pcs the bags. Comes out perfectly every time. He sells spawn for a living and it has served him good.
Paul Stamets goes into this in his section on grain prep in the mushroom cultivator as well. If you bring grain to full water capacity, weigh it, dry in the oven, then weigh again you can get a general idea.


--------------------
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The fellowship of atoms,
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