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Markosheehan
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other psychedelics
#23896663 - 12/05/16 11:58 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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hi can someone give me a list of psychedelics that dont affect 5ht2 a/b/c receptors that are introspective. i know this is kind of hard cause most drugs that are introspective affect these receptors. the reason i ask is cause its been linked to valvular heart disease
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impaired420
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Salvia divinorum is the only one that comes to mind.
-------------------- "Our task must be to free ourselves... By widening our circle of compassion, To embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein Offering salvia divinorum clones, leaf, and extracts for trades legal states.
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AuroraBorealis88
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I'm pretty sure that's just with SSRIs but I could be wrong.
Also it's a hypothesis and it said that most evidence out there refutes that hypothesis.
People don't get heart disease from traditional psychedelic drugs.
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Markosheehan
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well i am not one hundread percent sasying its true but it you look it to it its not encouraging espicially if you do them a lot which i like to do, i am trying to be be as safe as possible and please show me evidence of studies of having psilosin with no link with it. and ye i was thinking salvia but is there any others?
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Markosheehan
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AuroraBorealis88
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Quote:
Markosheehan said: please show me evidence of studies of having psilosin with no link with it. and ye i was thinking salvia but is there any others?
So you're asking me to disprove a negative? That'd be like trying to prove "God doesn't exist" or some nonsense like that.
Why would there be studies that "prove" psilocin has no link with heart disease? That's just stupid because there's no reason to even think it does and no it being a 5htp antagonist doesn't mean shit.
The link you provided said: "Numerous reports have shown an unquestionable association between fibrotic valve disease and the following drugs: ergot alkaloids (such as methysergide and ergotamine), ergot-derived dopaminergic agonists (such as pergolide and cabergoline) and drugs metabolized into norfenfluramine (such as fenfluramine, dexfenfluramine and benfluorex)."
^They said nothing about psilocin/psilocybin and they made a point about dopamergic drugs not anything else.
Also Salvia is not a psychedelic. Plus I'm pretty sure this heart disease nonsense is only for drugs that release serotonin which psychedelics like mushrooms and LSD do not.
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impaired420
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How is salvia not a psychedelic? You can argue because it's so dissociating it isn't a psychedelic but aren't all psychedelics dissociating in the right amount?
Is it because it's a k-opioid receptor agonist? It is indeed a psychedelic.
I'll also concur that psilocybin shouldn't attribute to any heartproblems. I could see how lysergamides could be harmful because of how speedy they are but idk man sounds like a bunch of hearsay so far.
-------------------- "Our task must be to free ourselves... By widening our circle of compassion, To embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein Offering salvia divinorum clones, leaf, and extracts for trades legal states.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Also these conniving mother fuckers said "even just weekly use of MDMA can cause this"
Wtf...they act like weekly use for MDMA is somehow not a lot even though that's a fucking shitload.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Quote:
impaired420 said: How is salvia not a psychedelic? You can argue because it's so dissociating it isn't a psychedelic but aren't all psychedelics dissociating in the right amount?
Is it because it's a k-opioid receptor agonist? It is indeed a psychedelic.
Salvia is an atypical dissociative. I wouldn't consider Ketamine or DXM to be psychedelic either.
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impaired420
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Sure if you want to get technical about it but it is still indeed a hallucinogen.
-------------------- "Our task must be to free ourselves... By widening our circle of compassion, To embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein Offering salvia divinorum clones, leaf, and extracts for trades legal states.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Yes of course it's a hallucinogen I just like making the distinction between the different types of hallucinogens because not all of them are safe (since people usually regard psychedelics as "safe" so it's better to make clear that not all hallucinogens are psychedelic); deliriants for example.
If you want to get really technical though Salvinorin A is an atypical dissociative terpene with psychedelic characteristics. Not actual full on psychedelic effects but just characteristics.
THC is an atypical psychedelic terpene with dissociative characteristics.
So even though Salvia is unique in that it has "psychedelic characteristics" it isn't technically a psychedelic since it by default leans more to the dissociative side of things. Just like how cannabis has "dissociative characteristics" but isn't technically a dissociative, not to mention it leans more towards the psychedelic side of things but is sometimes dependent on dose.
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impaired420
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You're totally correct. But since we are knit picking salvinorin A is actually a diterpene, different mechanisms compared to terpenes like THC which store actives in a circular gland. Diterpenes like salvinorin secrete actives instead of storing them.
But yeah I'd consider it a psychedelic myself just because of how little of a dose you need to achieve hallucinations. You can eat 5grams of mushrooms and be dissociated as well.
-------------------- "Our task must be to free ourselves... By widening our circle of compassion, To embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein Offering salvia divinorum clones, leaf, and extracts for trades legal states.
Edited by impaired420 (12/05/16 05:06 PM)
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AuroraBorealis88
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Yea but do you even consider this disconnection psychedelia? I just consider it disconnection or dissociation. 
Hallucinogenic? Sure, but psychedelic? I'm not so sure about that.
The only drug I know of that is both a legitimate dissociative and a legitimate psychedelic would be Ibogaine.
That drug actually has full blown psychedelic effects whereas I see something like Salvia just having some psychedelic "qualities" Idk
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impaired420
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Salvia has psychedelic effects. Just because high doses of salvinorin result in a pretty dissociative trip, low doses do result in very lysergamide like ways.
Low salvia doses result in similar lysergic head space, I've even experienced tactile and auditory hallucinations, just like traditional psychedelics, but just oddly different at the same time.
I think dosages would play a big role in this argument considering it's active in microgram ranges it's a multifaceted compound.
-------------------- "Our task must be to free ourselves... By widening our circle of compassion, To embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein Offering salvia divinorum clones, leaf, and extracts for trades legal states.
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AuroraBorealis88
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I've just never seen Salvia as a psychedelic and I don't get how you could call it one since it has far more dissociative effects than anything.
What psychedelic effects does salvia even have? Because I haven't heard of any. No emotion enhancement, no personal meaning enhancement, no novelty enhancement, no creativity enhancement I mean really none of that. It doesn't even cause pattern recognition enhancement.
Also tactile and auditory hallucinations happen on all kinds of hallucinogens not just psychedelics. In fact they're far more common on deliriants than anything else and some people actually theorize that it has characteristics of not just psychedelics but deliriants as well.
I've never heard anyone compare a low dose of salvia to lysergamides. I did hear somewhere though (not sure if this is true) that Salvia, Ketamine and LSD all work on a similar receptor that most hallucinogens don't seem to effect or something along those lines.
Salvia is just too different from psychedelics. It's different from ordinary dissociatives too but it fits more with them than anything and it has a similar mechanism of action as well as effects like depersonalization and derealization which are not inherent effects of psychedelics.
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flickedbic
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Amanita muscaria
-------------------- Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order: 1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine 2)Amanita (urine drank twice) 3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose) 4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators) 5)Salvia (need to try quid)
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental. Blessing.
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Markosheehan
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there is not a lot known about amanita muscaria
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Markosheehan
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flickedbic
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After reading through the thread, it seems only daily use over several years could be an issue, while most people take mushrooms only a few times a year.
This could have implications for long-term microdosing regimens however, altho most take a couple days off in between microdoses.
I would be interested in further analysis. Perhaps this thread would be better suited for the "Chemistry and Pharmacology" sub-forum?
-------------------- Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order: 1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine 2)Amanita (urine drank twice) 3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose) 4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators) 5)Salvia (need to try quid)
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental. Blessing.
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AuroraBorealis88
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My conclusion is that it's complete bullshit and has no evidence to back it up whatsoever.
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mctaveesh
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Some people claim Salvia gives them Psychedelic effects.
I would assume that it being a K-Opioid agonist, it would have some kind of Psychedelic effect, even if it's very different than Serotonin Psychedelics.
Maybe it works for some but yeah, most people say they don't like it much. I've never done it so I can't say.
OP, how about weed edibles?
Weed is very introspective for me if I smoke a good bit and keep it at once or twice a week. Edibles are very Psychedelic, but even with smoking, you can get pretty deep if you smoke a lot of good weed with low tolerance.
Can you do weed?
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flickedbic
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Quote:
ECG abnormalities in the form of tachycardia, myocardial ischaemia and aberrant intraventricular conduction. It was also stated that long-term exposure to PSI and PEA exerts a crucial effect on the energy heart muscle metabolism, which has been reflected in the complex changes in the myocardial profile of purine concentrations. These abnormalities corresponded with degenerative changes in cardiomyocyte mitochondria observed on histopathological and electron microscopy examinations
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=61834
-------------------- Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order: 1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine 2)Amanita (urine drank twice) 3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose) 4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators) 5)Salvia (need to try quid)
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental. Blessing.
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Markosheehan
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most people i have shown this to have not responded with a response like that
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AuroraBorealis88
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That's because most people don't have balls and don't know how to think realistically.
Oh ya not to mention even with LSD there's no evidence of users suffering heart complications. If these things can really damage the heart valves with any reasonable amount of use then we would have seen it in the long term effects of people who have used them.
We already know the major long term effects of all traditional psychedelics and heart problems are not one of them. These studies seem fishy and I would be interested to know who even funded them. I'd also be interested in finding out how they narrowed it down to the 5-HTP2b receptors.. What makes them think that's it? They used mostly SSRIs for these studies it seems and they don't even know how SSRIs work. Why are they assuming it's just an affinity for the receptor? All of these drugs interact differently with the receptors and how exactly they do interact is still a mystery.
I have a really hard time believing mushrooms in anyway physically damage the body or brain especially the heart valves and not because I'm biased but because I actually use logic. All these studies were, were basically speculation and it still sounds like utter bullshit. Also from the looks of it they were only able to actually prove it with SSRIs and MDMA which....ya no shit. MDMA is an amphetamine and no it doesn't surprise me it should actually be expected.
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flickedbic
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Quote:
If these things can really damage the heart valves with any reasonable amount of use then we would have seen it(...)
I dont think long-term everyday or every-other-day dosing is reasonable use.
Quote:
All these studies were, were basically speculation(...) they were only able to actually prove it with SSRIs and MDMA(...)
That giving rats sub-psychedelic doses every other day produces ECG abnormalities in the form of tachycardia, myocardial ischaemia and aberrant intraventricular conduction is not speculation, and they didn't use MDMA or a SSRI; they proved it using psilocin.
-------------------- Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order: 1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine 2)Amanita (urine drank twice) 3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose) 4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators) 5)Salvia (need to try quid)
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental. Blessing.
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AuroraBorealis88
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https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_and_5ht2b_agonism_induced_cardiotoxicity/
^In this? This is what I was referring to as well as the other one the OP linked earlier that talked about SSRIs.
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flickedbic
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Yes, the study I'm talking about is provided about halfway down the thread that you've just linked.
-------------------- Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order: 1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine 2)Amanita (urine drank twice) 3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose) 4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators) 5)Salvia (need to try quid)
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental. Blessing.
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nooneman


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All classic psychedelics affect 5HT2A. That is in fact the definition of a classic psychedelic is that it has action at 5HT2A. If you're looking for something with no action at 5HT2A, then by definition you are not looking for a psychedelic.
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Markosheehan
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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said: Oh ya not to mention even with LSD there's no evidence of users suffering heart complications. If these things can really damage the heart valves with any reasonable amount of use then we would have seen it in the long term effects of people who have used them.
i know they have been around for a long time but when ever i look up studies on the physical affects of shrooms i find absolutely nothing. people only seem interested in the pyscoactive affects and how it affects depression etc can you link anything on this??
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AuroraBorealis88
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Link anything on what? The physical side effects of shrooms? Ha there are none.
Some people talk about long term changes in blood pressure occasionally but that's all I've heard and I don't think it's confirmed. Mushrooms don't even affect your heart rate so I don't see how it can even affect the heart valves at all at least in any notable way, after all when your heart rate changes that means the speed at which the heart valves are opening and closing move faster since that's what a heart beat is. It isn't the actual contraction of the muscles in the heart it's actually just the valves being opened and then closed again due to a rise in ventricular pressure after the cells are depolarized (electrically charged). So for a drug like MDMA or LSD which speeds up the heart rate I can see how they might have an effect after seriously strenuous use. And I mean like really strenuous use.
I'm not necessarily saying a drug has to affect your heart rate to have any effect on the heart valves but that would be the first place I'd look. I don't know if the heart valves can be affected in any other way but then again I wouldn't be surprised.
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Markosheehan
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how come when i measure my blood pressure on a trip it has gone up then and how do you know there are no phsyical affects if there is nothing examinationg it. and also the someone died from shrooms from cardiac arrest . i know they had had a heart transplant but it was years ago so how does it have no affect, also the person did other things to elevate there heart rate e.g execise, orgasims but shrooms made them die.
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AuroraBorealis88
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How do you know shrooms made them die? Mother fucker had a weak heart so who knows what it was plus he already had a transplant.
I never said it doesn't affect the heart I said it doesn't change the heart rate. I don't know why you measured your blood pressure getting higher because it definitely doesn't consistently do that, shrooms more often than not create vasodilation which decreases blood pressure. That's why people often pass out when they mix it with pot which also causes vasodilation.
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Markosheehan
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he had be fine for years since the transplant and 2 weeks prevoius he had been to the doctor who had said his heart is absolutely fine the guy did other things to aggregate his heart like i already mentioned e.g panic, exercise orgasims but none of these killed him but he took shrooms and on no other drugs he died and well there must be something very wrong with my body cause i have measured it twice and both have been substantially higher as well as measuring my friends which was higher.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Dude fuck the guy I don't give a shit lol 
Who knows what it was. People have cardiac arrests all the time, someone's bound to have it happen on shrooms. How do you know they didn't mess up the heart transplant that day?
You sound way too paranoid. You're over here complaining about mushrooms and heart valves like there's some kind of real risk involved. THERE ISN'T
I can guarantee you almost everything we use everyday is probably worse for the heart than mushrooms. There's no evidence of even long term users having heart problems so just drop it man.
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