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Ancestoralbeings
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Mckenna stoned ape theory
#23895366 - 12/04/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why do you, or why do you not believe this theory to be correct? Wanted to get some more modern day opinions. If you posted your belief on a previous thread don't feel obliged to, but if you want to i would be happy.
Here is a short video, could not find a good article really elaborating on it.
Edited by Ancestoralbeings (12/04/16 10:23 PM)
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



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Post an article detailing what this "stoned ape" theory is. Would help with response.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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Ancestoralbeings
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: WhoManBeing]
#23895382 - 12/04/16 10:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said: Post an article detailing what this "stoned ape" theory is. Would help with response.
Thanks, couldn't find a good written article so i posted a video. Let me know if you have any good ones you know of and i'll post it in the description.
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TheMadHatter420
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I had once hear of the idea that psychedelic plants and mushrooms could have played a very important part in the evolution of us. It is very likely, in my opinion, that ancient primates came in contact with these drugs. Over thousands, if not millions of years these compound could permanently alter brain chemicals and function. To me it makes perfect sense that "we are an ape in a symbiotic relationship with a mushroom" From a Mudvayne song, but still food for thought.
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Ultron
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I imagine any alteration in are diet affects how we develop. Like the abundance of amino acids essential for brain development that are present in meats. L
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TheMadHatter420
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Ultron]
#23895502 - 12/04/16 11:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes that is true. A lot of main stream science attributes that to our evolution.
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Matai


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You've got to be a pretty stoned ape to believe in the stoned ape theory, imho.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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TheMadHatter420
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23895620 - 12/05/16 12:07 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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So what is your opinion for how modern man came to be?
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Headrush


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I believe in McKenna's theory. You literally are what you eat. And yes I'm stoned also, and tripping.
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TheMadHatter420
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Headrush]
#23895725 - 12/05/16 01:06 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I was gona trip tonight, man I should have just done it.
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Headrush


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Only 3 gram's and I got the full ride tonight. Listened to Pink Floyd's Division Bell few times. It's amazing how you get really poweful experience on mid dose. Just kept coming in waves, Wow
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Quote:
Ancestoralbeings said: Why do you, or why do you not believe this theory to be correct? Wanted to get some more modern day opinions. If you posted your belief on a previous thread don't feel obliged to, but if you want to i would be happy.
I think the basis of Terrence Mckennas idea was correct to think more critically about how biology is intertwined with thoughts and emotions but the way he went about answering it was wrong.
Humans are sentient animals and we evolved so it's safe to say that sentience evolved too. One question that still needs to be answered is how sentience evolved and I believe it was due to the continued use of entheogens like magic mushrooms which are anxiolytic(sympathomimetic) and act to stimulate the sympathetic nervous system which eventually numbs it and reduces the responsiveness of the fight or flight response.
It is the action of inhibiting the responsiveness of the fight or flight response that I believe gave our hominid ancestors the right frame of mind and amount of sensational control to compare and conceptualise good and bad experiences which would help to develop a sense of morality, a conscience and eventual sentience.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: sudly]
#23895874 - 12/05/16 04:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Correction. It is not a "theory". It is a hypothesis.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Headrush]
#23895878 - 12/05/16 04:47 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Headrush said: I believe in McKenna's theory. You literally are what you eat. And yes I'm stoned also, and tripping.
the body is what you dont shit.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Terrence Mckenna's idea is a hypothesis but I'm advocating for a modernised interpretation of Triune Brain theory that explores and links different aspects of theoretical work from Julian Jaynes, Paul D. Maclean and Sigmund Freud.
One that describes the human 'spirit' as a 3 part experience of body and mind that consists of logic from the neocortex and forebrain, emotion from the limbic system, cardiovascular system and heart and finally intuition and instinct from the gut and Autonomic Nervous System.
The modern model of the Triune Brain is a mix of Plato's Tripartite Soul, Paul D.Macleans Triune Brain and Sigmund Freud's Tripartite Personality.



If there is any simple way to interpret this model of the human experience it is through this definition of Freudian theory.
- Super Ego is your judgement.
- Ego is your heart feelings.
- ID is your gut feelings.

Edited by sudly (12/05/16 05:18 AM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: sudly]
#23895895 - 12/05/16 05:23 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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A great speech from a surprising man.
Quote:
"I learned that what we see is not universal truth, it is not objective reality, what we see is a unique personal virtually reality that is masterfully constructed by our brain.
What you see is a complex mental construction of your own making but you experience it passively as a direct representation of the world around you, you create your own reality and you believe it.
What's worse than being blind is having sight but no vision."
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23896289 - 12/05/16 09:40 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Matai said: You've got to be a pretty stoned ape to believe in the stoned ape theory, imho.
You've got to be pretty conditioned to say something like that.
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Matai


Registered: 05/04/14
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As far as I can tell, it simply isn't supported academically or scientifically, which is pretty much the last word as far as I'm concerned.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23897004 - 12/05/16 02:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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People always say that yet they never give examples or reasoning.
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Ancestoralbeings
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23897127 - 12/05/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Matai said: As far as I can tell, it simply isn't supported academically or scientifically, which is pretty much the last word as far as I'm concerned.
Never seen any of that anywhere.
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Ancestoralbeings
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Correction. It is not a "theory". It is a hypothesis.
And where have you seen this? Everywhere i've seen it is called a theory. I literally looked up "stoned ape hypothesis" And the only thing that comes up is a theory.
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Ancestoralbeings
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23897156 - 12/05/16 03:18 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Matai said: You've got to be a pretty stoned ape to believe in the stoned ape theory, imho.
I haven't smoked any form of cannabis in over a year, and i 100% believe it. It makes a lot of sense.
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Matai


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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said: People always say that yet they never give examples or reasoning.
What do you mean though? It's not like there's a wealth of examples critiquing/disproving it I could give as examples; it's more like there's a lack of studies or opinions supporting it.
It isn't discussed academically or biologically at all, because (presumably) nobody takes it seriously.
Search for "stoned ape theory" in Google Scholar and you'll find next to nothing published on the subject.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23897630 - 12/05/16 05:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Matai said: It isn't discussed academically or biologically at all, because (presumably) nobody takes it seriously.
Yeah because they're not objective and they're conditioned retards. Were you born yesterday or the day before? Pretty basic stuff right there amigo.
Also you say right now you weren't trying to disprove it only claim that there's nothing supporting it however your initial post completely contradicts that because it implies the the former not the latter.
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Matai


Registered: 05/04/14
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Lol, OK guy. I'd be willing to bet that you'd literally trust your life with the professional opinion of those "conditioned retards" when it comes to modern medicine. Where do you stand on the rest of modern biology's achievements? Are scientists and academics only incompetent when it comes to evolution and psychedelics? Or are they useless right across the board?
Regarding my second point, you need to read up on falsification and Karl Popper, my man (or is he a conditioned retard too?) I'm not trying to disprove anything. The onus of proof lies on the people claiming the stoned ape theory is credible, is the evidence thereof is pretty much nil. Therefore I don't know why someone would believe it.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23897716 - 12/05/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Matai said: Lol, OK guy. I'd be willing to bet that you'd literally trust your life with the professional opinion of those "conditioned retards" when it comes to modern medicine. Where do you stand on the rest of modern biology's achievements? Are scientists and academics only incompetent when it comes to evolution and psychedelics? Or are they useless right across the board?
First off I am a biologist and second off these fucks don't know dick about psilocybin. Why would I listen to what conditioned crusty old fucks have to say about a hallucinogenic drug that they probably believe destroys the mind? Their consciousness is probably sterile and bland and when that happens people lose the ability to be objective. Why even bother hearing their opinions? That's like asking a bunch of meth heads about psychedelics simply because they're "drugs".
They're not objective now get over it. You should know this already. Use common sense before it uses you.
Quote:
The onus of proof lies on the people claiming the stoned ape theory is credible
No it's not actually.
Try again
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Matai


Registered: 05/04/14
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Loc: NZ
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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said: First off I am a biologist and second off these fucks don't know dick about psilocybin. Why would I listen to what conditioned crusty old fucks have to say about a hallucinogenic drug that they probably believe destroys the mind? Their consciousness is probably sterile and bland and when that happens people lose the ability to be objective. Why even bother hearing their opinions? That's like asking a bunch of meth heads about psychedelics simply because they're "drugs".
They're not objective now get over it. You should know this already. Use common sense before it uses you.
I suppose I just don't see at all why a scientist needs to have personally consumed magic mushrooms before they're able to objectively look at the evidence and decide whether the stoned ape theory is credible or not. Clearly you feel strongly about this though, and I'm not going to be able to convince you (nor you me), so there's not much point labouring the point.
Quote:
No it's not actually.
Try again
Mate, it really does. This has been philosophically discussed to death -- as an analogy, consider Russell's teapot:
Imagine I claim that there's a teapot revolving around the sun. The teapot is too small to be seen with even the most powerful telescope available. Despite this, I insist it exists. Now imagine I come to you and say "This teapot exists. You don't think so? Show me concrete evidence that disproves its existence. If you can't, I'm right." Now, you can't disprove that the teapot exists, but does that mean my claims about the teapot are true? Clearly that line of reasoning is flawed, because the onus of proof is on the person making the claim (e.g. me.) Lack of evidence to the contrary isn't evidence.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23897878 - 12/05/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Matai said: I suppose I just don't see at all why a scientist needs to have personally consumed magic mushrooms before they're able to objectively look at the evidence and decide whether the stoned ape theory is credible or not.
Who said anything about them actually taking mushrooms?
Quote:
Mate, it really does. This has been philosophically discussed to death -- as an analogy,
Nope, no and NO.
We obviously don't have the tools yet to prove it and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We're not in 6th grade here (hopefully) we know how to actually use our brains and be objective. Again being objective doesn't seem to be a very common thing around here or anywhere, it's just an empty word to people who let their egos do gymnastics around it.
The burden of proof is not upon me it's upon people like you. It's people like you who need to explain why it doesn't make sense or what's wrong with it because I don't see any other credible theories.
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Matai


Registered: 05/04/14
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Loc: NZ
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What do you mean by objective, then? I assumed you meant they were subjective/biased because they hadn't personally experienced psychedelia.
Re: your second point again, like I said, that isn't how it works. If you're making a claim about reality, the burden of proof falls on you. Saying otherwise doesn't change the fact -- otherwise we can claim any old shit. If you're a biologist, surely you know this. Try flipping the burden of proof when it comes to getting your research peer-reviewed, see how far that gets you.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23898013 - 12/05/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Matai said: What do you mean by objective, then? I assumed you meant they were subjective/biased because they hadn't personally experienced psychedelia.
Objective....as in non biased... You think someone can only be non biased about a drug if they haven't tried it? Come on dude..
Quote:
your second point again, like I said, that isn't how it works. If you're making a claim about reality, the burden of proof falls on you.
The burden of proof is upon you so you're wrong. You're the one making claims about this theory not I.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Quote:
We obviously don't have the tools yet to prove it and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We're not in 6th grade here (hopefully) we know how to actually use our brains and be objective. Again being objective doesn't seem to be a very common thing around here or anywhere, it's just an empty word to people who let their egos do gymnastics around it.
In regards to proving that sentience evolved in human beings it's unnecessary. Seeing as humans are sentient and humans have evolved it's only a matter of arguing how sentience evolved and it's very likely to have involved psychotropic drugs like magic mushrooms which were widely available to our ancestors who lived in the grassy planes of Africa where bovines and hence magic mushrooms were abundant.
Magic mushrooms are also a good source of protein and they're non toxic so they would have provided a survival benefit too.
Additionally the Aztecs worshiped magic mushrooms as deities and they had rituals and sculptures celebrating their use.

-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (12/05/16 07:49 PM)
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: sudly]
#23898057 - 12/05/16 07:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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No to mention what it does to visual acuity and edge detection.
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Matai


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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: sudly]
#23898063 - 12/05/16 07:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Objective....as in non biased... You think someone can only be non biased about a drug if they haven't tried it? Come on dude..
Wait, hold on. You've got me really confused now. I initially thought that was what you were saying, i.e. a scientist needs to take magic mushrooms to be objective. I said that I wasn't sure why that would be the case, but then you said 'who said anything about them actually taking magic mushrooms?' So just to be clear, that is what you're talking about, right?
Quote:
The burden of proof is upon you so you're wrong. You're the one making claims about this theory not I.
You just aren't getting this, man. I can claim that there's a mystical invisible wish-granting dragon that lives in my garage, and by your logic it's up to you to disprove that silly claim of mine. Well good luck dude, because that invisible dragon is one sneaky bastard.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23898097 - 12/05/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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No that's completely different because you're talking about disproving a negative. Also I'm not even asking you to disprove the theory I'm asking you to give an example as to why it wouldn't make sense.
And I really don't see why you would have to take drugs to be objective  So I don't know where you're getting this from...
Sure a psychedelic can suppress people's personal biases significantly but that doesn't mean you need a psychedelic to be objective. You just have to research how psychedelics actually work and what they do and try not to be a biased asshole about what you see/read. Simple
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai]
#23898101 - 12/05/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You do know that magic mushrooms have anxiolytic effects on the sympathetic nervous system right?
They act to stimulate and numb the fight or flight response in human beings. Since our hominid and tribal ancestors experienced this it shows that their natural instincts were temporarily removed by magic mushrooms meaning they would have the capacity to act more human.
Over time this capacity to act human and override instincts would accumulate to develop a sense of morality in the individuals taking the drugs.
While I believe all organisms are conscious and aware of their external surroundings I only believe that humans and service animals such as guide dogs and army dolphins are capable of forming a sense of morality, a conscience and eventual sentience in the form of being able to differentiate good experiences from bad ones.
P.S. Quote:
Consciousness: The state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings
Sentience: Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
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If any drug has had an impact on human evolution, it would be alcohol not psychedelics. Humans have been consuming alcohol longer than they have been consuming any other drug, and given how potentially destructive alcohol is on the body, it would make sense for it to have had an impact over the millennia.
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Matai


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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: sudly]
#23898186 - 12/05/16 08:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh I see, you were asking rhetorically. I understand you now. Sorry. What sort of bias does the average biologist have, in your opinion? What would get in the way of them evaluating the validity of the stoned ape theory? And who would be in a better, more objective position to evaluate it?
I don't really have any specific criticisms against the theory, I just don't think that the logical conclusions necessarily follow from the assumptions it makes, you know? I think it's a big leap to go from "mushrooms increase visual acuity" to "mushrooms are the driving force behind human evolution" (tho' I know I'm paraphrasing here), and I just don't know if there's any evidence to support any of the assumptions or conclusions. There are a couple of specific criticisms on the Wikipedia article, though.
-------------------- All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: nooneman]
#23898197 - 12/05/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Alcohol isn't full of neurotransmitter mimicking molecules like the psilocin in magic mushrooms.

If alcohol has a strong destructive potential as you say then how is that an evolutionary benefit?
Animals that get drunk on rotting fruit only become unable to walk.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: nooneman]
#23898212 - 12/05/16 08:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Humans have been consuming alcohol longer than they have been consuming any other drug
That is bullshit
Quote:
What sort of bias does the average biologist have, in your opinion? What would get in the way of them evaluating the validity of the stoned ape theory? And who would be in a better, more objective position to evaluate it?
I don't really have any specific criticisms against the theory, I just don't think that the logical conclusions necessarily follow from the assumptions it makes, you know?
Yes I know what you mean but I don't agree considering the theory is the most logical possibility we have.
In terms of what biases an average biologist has what you think?
We live in a world where people think psychedelic mushrooms makes your brain bleed and that they're a poison.. I didn't really think I would have to elaborate here on how exactly these scientists are conditioned. Shouldn't it be more than obvious? People have major biases against drugs and will often downplay them at any chance they get.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: Matai] 1
#23898220 - 12/05/16 08:38 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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A biologist should have a scientific bias if anything.
What gets in the way of evaluating the validity of the stoned ape theory is that people only focus on single aspects of Terrence Mckenna's idea instead of linking his ideas to aspects of other theories such as Julian Jaynes(Bicameral), Paul D.Maclean(Triune), Plato(Tripartite Soul) and Sigmund Freud(Tripartite Personality) to think more critically about how biology is intertwined with thoughts and emotions.
I don't think it's related to visual acuity or language, I think it's related to an entheogen(magic mushrooms) effecting the nervous system in ways that can be measured and tested.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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And yeah opium has been used by humans for at least 30,000 years while alcohol was first brewed around 10,000 years ago.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
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Loc: Utah
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: sudly]
#23898239 - 12/05/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Alcohol was first consumed by humans the moment they discovered fermented fruit. Even animals occasionally eat fermented fruit, it's not uncommon. Humans have been consuming alcohol for as far back as you want to go.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: nooneman]
#23898254 - 12/05/16 08:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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People used psychoactives before they started fermenting fruit but nice try.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: nooneman]
#23898265 - 12/05/16 08:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Some animals may eat fermented fruits but that doesn't mean a lot of animals do it or that there are an abundance of places with fruits that ferment enough to be safe or do anything to the animals that consume them.
Mmmmhmmmmmm don't you feel thirsty for some fruity alcohol!
Edited by sudly (12/05/16 08:58 PM)
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Ancestoralbeings
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Re: Mckenna stoned ape theory [Re: nooneman]
#23898721 - 12/05/16 11:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: If any drug has had an impact on human evolution, it would be alcohol not psychedelics. Humans have been consuming alcohol longer than they have been consuming any other drug, and given how potentially destructive alcohol is on the body, it would make sense for it to have had an impact over the millennia.
that is 100% just not true.
Imagine you are a an early hominid being. You see an old rotten looking fruit, and a beautiful mushroom growing out of the ground. Which one do you choose.
And tell me specifically what role alcohol played in evolution according to you.
Edited by Ancestoralbeings (12/06/16 12:01 AM)
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Blazeyy
Psychonaut


Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 1,663
Loc: Land of the Phrygian Hats
Last seen: 6 days, 18 hours
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I think his theory is right, simply due to the fact since taking psychedelics i've gotten increasingly smarter and able to understand things with little effort even if the language isn't native to me, i can just do everything a lot better than before i used them, if anything had made people smarter and more open to new ideas (creation of language etc) it's mushrooms i would put at the forefront of it, cannabis is similar, they seem to open new connections, it can actually be quite anxiety provoking all the information flowing freely, i notice a lot of people who start these things end up anxious because they can see all the bullshit that goes on around them when before it was invisible, pointless wars etc, before people didn't really care they just went about their daily lives but the majority of my social circle are psychedelic or cannabis users and i can tell a massive difference between those who are and those who are not, the users are more 'people based' where the non users in general tend to be more focused on making money for themselves not trying to spread awareness of things n tryna solve the worlds problems, i used to be the same till i took mushrooms so there is evidence for this in my eyes, i find people who use psychedelics properly are in general a lot smarter in certain aspects of the world, less of a self driven existence and more of a whole existence, the anxiety is fucking annoying though i gotta admit but i'd rather be anxious and awake than ignorant and asleep
-------------------- I give you the choice of 2 pills.
With each containing one of the following: Cyanide... Psilocin... Would you take the risk? Didn't think so. This is why Positive Identification prior to consumption is important.
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