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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineSleepyE
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Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art * 3
    #23889978 - 12/03/16 09:10 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

This has always confused the hell out of me. Commonly i will come by people who seem quite sharp until they say variations of this pitiful thought "who cares about Art."
I have a cousin who is in his late thirties maybe forties who said "i would love my kids, even if they were artists or musicians."

I find it confusing when these people can be intelligent in science or logic but not understand the fundamental source of inspiration of man.
I watched a segment recently of realtime with bill maher and bill maher said some pretty retarded shit that Neil Degrasse Tyson actually had to correct and enlighten him.

They were discussing some acronym that i think was called steam(science, technology, engineering, art, mathematics)
Maher literally said, and i shit you not. "i understand the 'stem' part but why do we really need the "A", we shouldn't spend valuable resources on something as unimportant as art."

And then i gained even more respect for Tyson when he said something like "well, art is very important to the inspirational process of humanity and add to our creativity energy to innovate."
im paraphrasing but the idea that most "educated people" cannot understand why artistic expression and achievement is important to our development is shocking and almost scary.
I wonder what changed. In the Renaissance days you weren't considered a true intellectual unless you played a musical instrument and now people believe artistic achievement is unimportant to the development of our consciousness.
I mean without art we wouldnt have movies either.
Im sure you cant count the hoards of people who were inspired to get into science by watching their favourite tv shows or movies like Star trek, or Contact, altered states etc.

I really like this quote by the great and powerful Franz Liszt which sums up my thoughts.

Quote:

As for famous men who were not artists, I am beginning to be tired of them. Those poor little scoundrels who are called great men fill me with nothing but overwhelming horror.
- Franz Liszt




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Edited by SleepyE (12/03/16 09:17 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #23890009 - 12/03/16 09:23 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I guess it's part of the overall decline of our society.  Intellectualism, philosophy and art are today frowned upon, or simply not cared about, but an awful lot of people.  Just as in Roman society, as society starts to slowly come apart one of the first things to go is the life of the mind for the majority of people.  I think that's what we're seeing.

Obviously, art is fundamentally important in all human societies, whether those societies recognize it or not.  I love the quote by William S. Burroughs:  "I postulate that the function of art and all creative thought is to make us aware of what we know and don't know that we know."  A life without such illumination is probably not worth living.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE] * 2
    #23890010 - 12/03/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

AFAIAC
  • everything is art if you care to express yourself that way
  • works of art are the leave-behinds of this expression
  • some people are good at it, and their leave behinds really inspire.
  • others not so much.
  • galleries and collectors and marketing agencies can really miss the mark or
  • just follow their personal bendings.

the last 3 points make some 'smart' people shun everything "labelled" art, I wonder what leave-behinds their efforts make.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23890055 - 12/03/16 09:38 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
AFAIAC
[LIST]
  • everything is art if you care to express yourself that way




  • that is true, some of my dads electronic engineering work in the past looks like artwork how he designs things so beautifully. You cant escape artistic expression i dont think.
    Just just a shame some people dont see that many things have an art to them.

    Quote:

    DividedQuantum said:
    A life without such illumination is probably not worth living.



    definitely not, i can imagine a scenario similar to the one in the movie "equilibrium." :lol:


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    Edited by SleepyE (12/03/16 09:39 AM)


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    OfflineMr.Peace
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE]
        #23890750 - 12/03/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    I  have always found the topic of art really interesting and although i couldn't agree with you more about it being one of the main sources for all human achievement, i personally think that the main reason some people frown at the idea of becoming an artist is mostly, if not entirely down to money.
    In such a competitive world it is quite unlikely that a person with any talent for ''art'' could ever make a decent living for themselves out of it.
    The appreciation is still the same, its peoples judgement on others who chose to make a living from such a thing that sways their words.
    But then again, that's just my own opinion.
    Peace :smile:


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    InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: Mr.Peace]
        #23890899 - 12/03/16 02:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    That's a decent point, Mr. Peace.  Perhaps people are thinking about art in economic terms, and looking down on it because of that.  A lot of the time many people are dismayed at how much a painting will sell for at auction, for example, thinking that there's no way it could be worth that much because it's "just art."  Many people feel that roles like artist or poet are some kind of joke, and perhaps it is because they feel it's monetarily worthless.

    You're also right that being an artist or a writer, even a good one, is a terrible and essentially impossible way to make a living, especially in today's hypercompetitive market.  There's simply no money in it, for the most part.  C'est la vie.


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    OfflineSleepyE
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
        #23890971 - 12/03/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    shows you just how much people value money over things that actually matter.

    money is NOT my motivation to create.

    one of my motivations to create is to immortalize my essence throughout history and the future. one of my goals is to not be forgotten.


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    Edited by SleepyE (12/03/16 03:06 PM)


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    Invisiblesudly
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE]
        #23891171 - 12/03/16 04:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    Because the value of art is subjectively defined.

    Quote:

    sold the brilliant blue canvas by Barnett Newman “Onement VI” to an anonymous bidder for a total of $43.8 million




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    OfflineSleepyE
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: sudly]
        #23891235 - 12/03/16 04:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    yeah modern art is definitely strange.
    personally it doesn't stimulate my appreciation as much as works of complexity.

    When i read up the deal with modern art i came by a funny clip from a french movie


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    Invisiblesudly
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE] * 1
        #23891475 - 12/03/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    This is nice modern art.


    Manabu-Ikeba-Rebirth

    http://www.boredpanda.com/pen-ink-drawing-rebirth-manabu-ikeda/


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    InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: sudly]
        #23891518 - 12/03/16 06:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    Unless your in the trade you wouldn't know that today that Art galleries and their subsequent buisness ' all around the world act as money laundering businesses.  That and some poor blokes are so delusional and rich at the same time that they live in a fantasy world.  Great art is still alive though ( it will be as long as man is too ), so nothing to cry about.


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    OfflineSleepyE
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: sudly]
        #23891767 - 12/03/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    now Thats good art :smile:


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    Offlineviktor
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE]
        #23891801 - 12/03/16 07:41 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    These people you mention are autistic or on the autistic spectrum.

    Hang around with more psychotics if you want people who will appreciate art and the world beyond the illusions.


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    Invisiblelaughingdog
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE]
        #23896014 - 12/05/16 07:04 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    Quote:

    SleepyE said:
    This has always confused the hell out of me. Commonly i will come by people who seem quite sharp until they say variations of this pitiful thought "who cares about Art."





    some people like boxing

    did you know Van Gogh used very little in the way of curved lines, even in a wild painting with swirling clouds, 98% is done with short straightish strokes

    https://lh3.ggpht.com/_CEYFayo29Ew/TTTQehpMUtI/AAAAAAAAAPw/3ZPKQcsxnB0/s1600/Van+Gogh%252520-%252520sky%252520at%252520night.jpg

    likewise the vase one side has abreak and the bottom is wrong, nothing graceful about it.

    http://partnouveau.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Vincent_Willem_van_Gogh_128.jpg

    however the boats do have nice lines

    http://paintings-art-picture.com/paintings/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/30/Van-Gogh-Paintings-Wallpapers-18.jpg

    wonder whats up with that


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    Invisibleredgreenvines
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: laughingdog] * 1
        #23896439 - 12/05/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    Quote:

    laughingdog said:
    Quote:

    SleepyE said:
    This has always confused the hell out of me. Commonly i will come by people who seem quite sharp until they say variations of this pitiful thought "who cares about Art."





    some people like boxing

    did you know Van Gogh used very little in the way of curved lines, even in a wild painting with swirling clouds, 98% is done with short straightish strokes

    https://lh3.ggpht.com/_CEYFayo29Ew/TTTQehpMUtI/AAAAAAAAAPw/3ZPKQcsxnB0/s1600/Van+Gogh%252520-%252520sky%252520at%252520night.jpg

    likewise the vase one side has abreak and the bottom is wrong, nothing graceful about it.

    http://partnouveau.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Vincent_Willem_van_Gogh_128.jpg

    however the boats do have nice lines

    http://paintings-art-picture.com/paintings/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/30/Van-Gogh-Paintings-Wallpapers-18.jpg

    wonder whats up with that



    I am surprised that you would say that the vase is wrong,
    the thing is: there is no vase, it is a painting, and it is complete as it is.
    all of van gogh's paintings are immensely satisfying totalities just as they are - things in themselves not containers of things.
    if you need a vase description get a camera, or manufacturer specifications. art is not about that.


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    Invisiblelaughingdog
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: redgreenvines]
        #23897213 - 12/05/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    Quote:

    redgreenvines said:
    Quote:

    laughingdog said:






    some people like boxing

    did you know Van Gogh used very little in the way of curved lines, even in a wild painting with swirling clouds, 98% is done with short straightish strokes

    https://lh3.ggpht.com/_CEYFayo29Ew/TTTQehpMUtI/AAAAAAAAAPw/3ZPKQcsxnB0/s1600/Van+Gogh%252520-%252520sky%252520at%252520night.jpg

    likewise the vase one side has abreak and the bottom is wrong, nothing graceful about it.

    http://partnouveau.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Vincent_Willem_van_Gogh_128.jpg

    however the boats do have nice lines

    http://paintings-art-picture.com/paintings/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/30/Van-Gogh-Paintings-Wallpapers-18.jpg

    wonder whats up with that



    I am surprised that you would say that the vase is wrong,
    the thing is: there is no vase, it is a painting, and it is complete as it is.
    all of van gogh's paintings are immensely satisfying totalities just as they are - things in themselves not containers of things.
    if you need a vase description get a camera, or manufacturer specifications. art is not about that.




    I surprised at my poor choice of words too
    Glad you enjoy his work
    I am familiar with Rene Magritte's
    'this is not a pipe'
    :smile:


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    InvisibleLunarEclipse
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: SleepyE] * 2
        #23897845 - 12/05/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    It probably has to do with art classes and even band ffs being eliminated along with actual exercise in schools nowadays, in many cases.  We can't let them paint, what if they get sick from the fumes or we have to buy some mineral spirits?  Probably insist on water colors only for example, no oil paint.  Shit they used to turn us loose in shop class in 7th grade with real tools and power tools and soldering irons and acid fucking flux solder.  Can you imagine that nowadays?

    I watched a video of my high school from 40 years ago with all these rude little asshole in the gym on their phones and talking during the presentation no effing respect how could you expect these idiots nowadays on their IPhones to appreciate a painting.  Unless their rap star painted it, and even then it would have to be on facebook and get x number of likes.


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    Invisiblelaughingdog
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: LunarEclipse]
        #23898505 - 12/05/16 10:25 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    even in the fifties when we had art classes in elementary school,
    schools still seemed sort of based on the idea of producing factory workers.

    the idea is explained and debated in the excerpt and link below--

    whatever one thinks of the debate below, or the luxury of having an art class, over all the school system I went to, in a middle class, and upper middle class town with a University, was still no place that encouraged creativity and exploration. There were grades, discipline, bells, assigned desks, punishments, assignments, schedules, and lots of poor teachers. Never the less compared to many schools I suspect it was fairly nice. Compared to Waldorf is was mechanical.
    I owe my enjoyment of the arts largely to my parents who valued them.

    http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model

    ... "Perhaps the best known and most influential example of this argument comes from Alvin Toffler who decried the “Industrial Era School” in his 1970 book Future Shock:
    Mass education was the ingenious machine constructed by industrialism to produce the kind of adults it needed. The problem was inordinately complex. How to pre-adapt children for a new world – a world of repetitive indoor toil, smoke, noise, machines, crowded living conditions, collective discipline, a world in which time was to be regulated not by the cycle of sun and moon, but by the factory whistle and the clock.

    The solution was an educational system that, in its very structure, simulated this new world. This system did not emerge instantly. Even today it retains throw-back elements from pre-industrial society. Yet the whole idea of assembling masses of students (raw material) to be processed by teachers (workers) in a centrally located school (factory) was a stroke of industrial genius. The whole administrative hierarchy of education, as it grew up, followed the model of industrial bureaucracy. The very organization of knowledge into permanent disciplines was grounded on industrial assumptions. Children marched from place to place and sat in assigned stations. Bells rang to announce changes of time.

    The inner life of the school thus became an anticipatory mirror, a perfect introduction to industrial society. The most criticized features of education today – the regimentation, lack of individualization, the rigid systems of seating, grouping, grading and marking, the authoritarian role of the teacher – are precisely those that made mass public education so effective an instrument of adaptation for its place and time.
    Despite these accounts offered by Toffler, Brooks, Khan, Gatto, and others, the history of schools doesn’t map so neatly onto the history of factories (and visa versa). As education historian Sherman Dorn has argued, “it makes no sense to talk about either ‘the industrial era’ or the development of public school systems as a single, coherent phase of national history.” ... etc. ...

    more here
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=schools+%2C+producing+factory+workers&t=hs&ia=web


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    Invisiblemt cleverest
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: laughingdog]
        #23899262 - 12/06/16 08:32 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    There's too many dipshits making obscure art these days for anyone to care anymore. When anything can be art and anyone can be an artist , then what's the point? As psychedelics teach us, you can interpret high ideas out of anything; everything is beautiful. Super boring art that celebrates the monotony of life is a legitimate thing, so I could take a quick snapshot of a dull street corner right now and there's no reason why that photo should not be exhibited in a museum.


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    Invisiblelaughingdog
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    Re: Why do some "smart" people not understand the value in Art [Re: mt cleverest]
        #23899414 - 12/06/16 09:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

    Quote:

    mt cleverest said:
    There's too many dipshits making obscure art these days for anyone to care anymore. When anything can be art and anyone can be an artist , then what's the point? As psychedelics teach us, you can interpret high ideas out of anything; everything is beautiful. Super boring art that celebrates the monotony of life is a legitimate thing, so I could take a quick snapshot of a dull street corner right now and there's no reason why that photo should not be exhibited in a museum.




    the word 'art' means too many things
    the 'art world' is indeed a joke
    up to age 6 most children world wide express themselves freely and spontaneously, thru drawing and painting - & enjoy doing so - and find it meaningful - it is an unselfconscious activity at that age
    immediately most adults stupidly do everything they can to cause self consciousness - at first children have no idea of making a product - it is pure activity - even at age 4 & 5 when they make pictures the whole business is innocent unless the parents are real idiots - it must be a part of human nature just as talking is. It must serve some integrative function.
    In most adults it seems that perhaps a similar function only happens in their dreams, which most civilized adults, don't even remember, let alone take seriously. I will not comment on so called "primitive" peoples and their "art" - or cave painting of 35,000 years ago - or dancing & drumming, and of course many forms of play, although they are worth considering if trying to understand the role of "art" in the human nature or psychology.


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