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Invisiblemabus
anguish this!

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 956
Undercover at the peace conference
    #2388950 - 02/29/04 03:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)


Inflitrating a peace conference? This country needs to wake up.

Quote:

Deputy Informants at Protester Meeting

http://www.whotv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1676085&nav=5ZinLAWv


February 28, 2004, Des Moines - A hearing in Des Moines yesterday proved what many peace activists have said for weeks.

Deputies from the Polk County Sheriff's Office did in fact infiltrate a peace conference, leading up to an anti-war protest at Camp Dodge.

Police arrested 12 protesters for protesting. Yesterday, some of them appeared in court to challenge the charge.

And that's when we learned about the Polk County Sheriff's surveilance tactics.

Those 12 protestors who were arrested last November will soon be going to trial. As their attorney's prepare for their defense- they came across a document from the Sheriff's department.

It acknowledges the group was being watched. That document is the first piece of physical proof protesters have showing that undercover deputies were posing as protestors.

The agents were actually at the meeting the day before the protest as the demonstrators planned the rally.

The Sheriff's office now acknowledges that they placed the deputies at the meeting so they could research the groups intentions.

Franks says- if the Sheriff's department wanted to know what they were up to- they simply could have shown up in uniform. But by coming undercover there's a discussion going on, anything being said at the discussion could influence your actions and what you decide to do.

Chief Bill Vaughn from the Polk County Sheriff's Department says the group never invited the department to the planning meeting.
Vaughn defends the departments use of undercover deputies. He says his office has a responsibility to make sure anti-war protests do not turn violent.


One of the protesters arrested will be in court to face trespassing charges on Monday. The other protesters will be in court later this spring. Another demonstration is being planned for next month.





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Anonymous

Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: mabus]
    #2389059 - 02/29/04 03:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i cant even think of anything to say to that. its just such bull shit. god damn.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: ]
    #2389132 - 02/29/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

God forbid coppers do their job.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Dade County
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: d33p]
    #2389655 - 02/29/04 11:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

god forbid peace breaks out. fuck, then what?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: mabus]
    #2390722 - 03/01/04 11:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mabus said:

Inflitrating a peace conference? This country needs to wake up.




Lets say that this peace conference was to stop the Jewish owned government in AMerica from using our military to attack targets that are hostile to Jews in Israel, but pose no threat to America, and it was sponsored by the KKK and the National Alliance, would you then still be against INFILTRATORS (not informants) in their ranks.

Quote:


Deputies from the Polk County Sheriff's Office did in fact infiltrate a peace conference, leading up to an anti-war protest at Camp Dodge.




Show me where this is illegal, if ya could.
Quote:


Police arrested 12 protesters for protesting. Yesterday, some of them appeared in court to challenge the charge.




Really maeks me question the objectivity of this article, "protesting" isn't a crime, thus, the charge that was filed wasn't "protesting", it was violating a specific ordance or law. If they were protesting in a way that was illegal, as the morons protested the world bank, they should be arrested.
Quote:


And that's when we learned about the Polk County Sheriff's surveilance tactics.




Ah, "we", the protestors wrote this article. How interestingly subjective.
Quote:

It acknowledges the group was being watched. That document is the first piece of physical proof protesters have showing that undercover deputies were posing as protestors.




Are deputies not allowed in these groups? What do these groups have to hide?
Quote:


Franks says- if the Sheriff's department wanted to know what they were up to- they simply could have shown up in uniform. But by coming undercover there's a discussion going on, anything being said at the discussion could influence your actions and what you decide to do.




I have no idea what that last fragment of a sentance was to mean, if this organizational meeting was open to the public, why are they upset that police showed up out of uniform? Is this the KKK or something?
Quote:


Vaughn defends the departments use of undercover deputies. He says his office has a responsibility to make sure anti-war protests do not turn violent.




Do you think that this is not correct? I personally totally agree, if they had an OPEN meeting, anyone who wanted to can attend it. Since peace rallies in the past have gone somewhat violent, I don't see the problem here.
Quote:


One of the protesters arrested will be in court to face trespassing charges on Monday.




Ah, the truth comes out! At least one of them wasn't simply peacefully protesting, he was violating someone elses property law rights. Why shouldn't he be arrested for this?
Quote:


The other protesters will be in court later this spring. Another demonstration is being planned for next month.




Maybe they should plan to not trespass, and they should be OK. i'm going to look this story up at the local newspaper in this town, see what the actual charges are. This doesn't appear to be a violation of anyones civil rights, police have a right to attend open meetings out of uniform.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: thescientist]
    #2390726 - 03/01/04 12:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thescientist said:
god forbid peace breaks out. fuck, then what?




12 people aren't arrested for 'peace', they are arrested for violating the laws of the country.

If these people's sole intent is peace through legal matters, why would it matter to them if the cops showed up? It's not a secret meeting, they advertised the meeting and invited people to attend, the cops didn't lie to them or try to join their group, they simply attended. A few people got arrested because of their actions rather than because of incriminating things they said or did around the undercover officers, and thats that. If the people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been arrested. If the sole purpose of these peace-niks is peaceful protest, why would they be upset that the cops came undercover?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: mabus]
    #2390733 - 03/01/04 12:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

WHO-tv is actually a real news organization, so whoever wrote that article must just be a fool.

http://bernie.house.gov/documents/articles/20040211092740.asp
Quote:


The day after the forum, some in the group traveled to an Iowa National Guard base in Johnston, north of Des Moines, where they staged a demonstration, which Mr. Terrell described as routine. A dozen people were arrested there, mainly on state charges of trespass. At least one woman was also charged with assault. Mr. Terrell said he did not know of anyone trying to scale the fence at the base, but the federal authorities say someone did.




Ah, from a peaceful protest to trespassing on federal property and assaule. Interesting. Very interesting.

Quote:

At the forum, Mr. Terrell said, at least one local television station filmed the events, which were open to the public. Organizers had also mailed a leaflet about the events to a sergeant in the Des Moines police in case he wanted to come.

"Everything we did was completely in the open," Mr. Terrell said. "We've been doing this sort of thing a long time. The police know the routine. We know them. Usually things here in Iowa are very friendly."




So, uh, they invited the cops, they know the cops, they are friendly with the cops, the people that were arrested broke the law, those that protested peacefully didn't get arrested, I'm failiing to see any problem here.

If you want to see about the government trampling people's right to speech and protest, look at how they deal with KKK rallies.

i'd say I'm done in this post, I've proved my point again. Liberal media? WHAT liberal media?


--------------------
Opinions are like assholes; everyone needs one or else they'd explode


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: mabus]
    #2390735 - 03/01/04 12:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mabus said:

Inflitrating a peace conference? This country needs to wake up.




When you read my other posts, you'll see that they admitted that they invited deputies. Heres a lesson for those that don't know...

in?fil?trate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fltrt, nfl-)
v. in?fil?trat?ed, in?fil?trat?ing, in?fil?trates
v. tr.

To pass (troops, for example) surreptitiously into enemy-held territory.
To penetrate with hostile intent: infiltrate enemy lines; terrorists that had infiltrated the country.
To enter or take up positions in gradually or surreptitiously, as for purposes of espionage or takeover: infiltrated key government agencies with spies.



at?tend ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-tnd)
v. at?tend?ed, at?tend?ing, at?tends
v. tr.
To be present at: attended class.
To accompany as a circumstance or follow as a result: The speech was attended by wild applause.

To accompany or wait upon as a companion or servant.
To take care of (a sick person, for example). See Synonyms at tend2.
To take charge of: They attended our affairs during our absence.
To listen to; heed: attended my every word.




They didn't INFILTRATE, they ATTENDED.


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Anonymous

Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2390826 - 03/01/04 12:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i think infiltrate is an apt description of what they did. so what. violent groups often use covers for their activities. i don't think this was an entirely wasteful use of police resources as long as the intent was never to violate peoples right to peacebly assemble, but to enforce just laws. as arrests were made for trespassing, which is a crime (and should be), i don't think that this was a violation of anyone's rights. the police department has a right to go to a public meeting. this is, at worst, a wasteful use of police resources. it's no violation of anyone's rights.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Dade County
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2391783 - 03/01/04 05:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hahaha, you think people are only arrested for breaking laws? hahaha

oh the police and military are soo just, they would never do anything bad, thank goodness.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: thescientist]
    #2391792 - 03/01/04 05:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thescientist said:
hahaha, you think people are only arrested for breaking laws? hahaha

oh the police and military are soo just, they would never do anything bad, thank goodness.




I'm glad that someone has come along who doesn't like using facts, reason or logic to support their points, and can use, in lieu of them, sarcasm and putting words in other peoples mouths.

If the police / military were so unjust,why did they just do it to 12 of the entire crowd? Why nto all of them? Why am I bothering with an imbecile?


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2391817 - 03/01/04 05:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
If the police / military were so unjust,why did they just do it to 12 of the entire crowd? Why nto all of them?



Leverage. It's more efficient to make examples of a few and cow the rest into submission. Do you think the overwhelming force used at Waco was just to quell a few religious people who decided to remove themselves from the mainstream or was the establishment also trying to send a message?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Dade County
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2391902 - 03/01/04 06:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

from the article: " Police arrested 12 protesters for protesting."

you suggest they were arrested for breaking laws.
quote
"12 people aren't arrested for 'peace', they are arrested for violating the laws of the country"

"If the people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been arrested."
seriously tho, do you believe this as a generalization?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: Evolving]
    #2392087 - 03/01/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

Leverage. It's more efficient to make examples of a few and cow the rest into submission. Do you think the overwhelming force used at Waco was just to quell a few religious people who decided to remove themselves from the mainstream or was the establishment also trying to send a message?




*shakes head*

nothing I could say would prove my point to you beacuse you are already 100% sure you are correct. Do you admit the possibility that these morons DID try to climb a fence, adn thus, that is trespassing? If no, you are an idiot. If yes, you admit that their is a possibility that that happened, then you can't say without having been there. I'm making my judgement based on the facts that I've been able to find.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2392319 - 03/01/04 08:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
nothing I could say would prove my point to you beacuse you are already 100% sure you are correct.



Where did you come up with that bit of nonsense? I am 100% sure that you don't know what you're talking about in the preceding quote.

Quote:

Do you admit the possibility that these morons DID try to climb a fence, adn thus, that is trespassing?



Yes, the article did state, "One of the protesters arrested will be in court to face trespassing charges..." It didn't state what the others were charged with. Please provide us with some links from which you have acquired your superior knowledge.

Quote:

If yes, you admit that their is a possibility that that happened, then you can't say without having been there.



Where you there? I didn't think so.

You seem to be a good little apologist for the growing police state, people like you are one of the reasons I have never stated, "It can't happen here." You are either part of the solution, or you are part of the problem. You my friend, are not part of the solution.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: Evolving]
    #2392336 - 03/01/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
nothing I could say would prove my point to you beacuse you are already 100% sure you are correct.



Where did you come up with that bit of nonsense? I am 100% sure that you don't know what you're talking about in the preceding quote.

Quote:

Do you admit the possibility that these morons DID try to climb a fence, adn thus, that is trespassing?



Yes, the article did state, "One of the protesters arrested will be in court to face trespassing charges..." It didn't state what the others were charged with. Please provide us with some links from which you have acquired your superior knowledge.

Quote:

If yes, you admit that their is a possibility that that happened, then you can't say without having been there.



Where you there? I didn't think so.

You seem to be a good little apologist for the growing police state, people like you are one of the reasons I have never stated, "It can't happen here." You are either part of the solution, or you are part of the problem. You my friend, are not part of the solution.






Feel free to read the posts that i've made that show that 12 people were arrested, that the police deputy was invited and that the organizers said that they were on friendly terms with the police. If America ever did turn into a police state, people like me would do FAR more to fix it than people like you would.


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Invisiblemabus
anguish this!

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 956
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2392379 - 03/01/04 09:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What kind of sheriff is this? Ask yourself. He gets invited in an official capacity to a workshop on civil disobedience at a college under his jurisdiction where its his sworn duty to uphold the peace, and instead of going to make sure they stay within the law and that the protest goes according to law, he sends in undercover narcotics agents(I saw the paperwork they filled out in the video). Anyway, in my america its not against the law to protest, so why the undercover operation?

The investigation, he said in his statement, involved an alleged attempt to enter the fenced, secure perimeter at Camp Dodge, the home of the Iowa National Guard. Federal authorities said Monday that part of their investigation was focused on whether a "prior agreement to violate federal law" was hatched at the Nov. 15 conference.

Polk County authorities agree with demonstrators' assertions that no one tried to scale a fence. The only arrest that appeared to come close to fitting O"Meara's description was that of Elton Davis, one of the subpoenaed activists who was charged with trespass at a Camp Dodge gate roughly one-quarter mile south of the main demonstration.



Quote:

Published on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 by the Des Moines Register
U.S. Officials Drop Activist Subpoenas
Judge lifts Drake gag order in probe of anti-war protest

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0211-01.htm

by Jeff Eckhoff and Mark Siebert

Federal authorities retreated Tuesday in their investigation of an Iowa anti-war demonstration, withdrawing grand jury subpoenas delivered last week to four peace activists and Drake University.

The shift came as the investigation drew nationwide condemnation from civil liberties advocates, politicians and peace activists.

Also Tuesday, a federal judge lifted a gag order on Drake, where employees had been ordered not to discuss an inquiry into a meeting the anti-war activists held there Nov. 15. Federal authorities had asked for records of the campus chapter of the National Lawyers Guild - which hosted the anti-war conference - and for the impressions campus police had of the gathering.


Silent protest: Drake University law professor Sally Frank, appearing Tuesday at a rally at the federal building in Des Moines, wears tape across her mouth to protest a gag order imposed on university employees.

Also See:

University Ordered to Turn Over Records on Anti-War Activists

National Lawyers Guild Target of FBI Subpoena; Legal/Activist Group Will Not Divulge Membership Information

Terrorists? Iowa Peace Activists Ordered to Testify in US Court



"Whatever one's views of the political positions articulated at that meeting," Drake President David Maxwell said in court papers unsealed Tuesday, "the university cherishes and protects the right to express those views without fear of reprisal or recrimination."

Brian Terrell, one of the four activists originally ordered to appear before the grand jury, announced the government switch at a noontime rally Tuesday in front of the federal building in Des Moines.

"Friends, the piece of news that I have is historic. The subpoenas against the four of us were dropped today," Terrell said to the cheers of about 150 people.

Federal officials declined to say why they asked the grand jury to quash the subpoenas.

Al Overbaugh, spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office in Des Moines, declined to comment Tuesday, other than to say the moves didn't necessarily signal that the investigation had ended.

The federal investigation became public last week when a Polk County sheriff's deputy - identifying himself as a member of the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force - delivered several subpoenas.

Facing growing concern, the U.S. attorney in Des Moines, Stephen Patrick O'Meara, took the unusual step Monday of acknowledging the secret grand jury investigation. He denied the investigation was in any way related to terrorism.

The investigation, he said in his statement, involved an alleged attempt to enter the fenced, secure perimeter at Camp Dodge, the home of the Iowa National Guard. Federal authorities said Monday that part of their investigation was focused on whether a "prior agreement to violate federal law" was hatched at the Nov. 15 conference.

The peace activists' conference and nonviolence training session - held at Drake after police and the media were notified - was called "Stop the Occupation! Bring the Iowa Guard Home!" The next day, activists went to the Iowa National Guard headquarters at Camp Dodge, where 12 people were arrested for trespassing.

Polk County authorities agree with demonstrators' assertions that no one tried to scale a fence. The only arrest that appeared to come close to fitting O"Meara's description was that of Elton Davis, one of the subpoenaed activists who was charged with trespass at a Camp Dodge gate roughly one-quarter mile south of the main demonstration.

Davis on Tuesday denied he crossed an official boundary. Instead, he said, he simply walked up to a gate and asked to speak to a commanding officer.

"I told him I was there to establish an ongoing presence at the base," Davis said. "I would like to occupy the base. I would like his help with accommodations, would like an office . . . to work with the command authority to bring home people who were trapped in Iraq by a failure of foreign policy.

"At which point he almost fell down laughing."

Court papers say Davis was arrested after he "entered onto federal property and remained there after being ordered to leave" by federal officials. Documents say he pleaded no contest and served three days in jail.

Ben Stone, executive director of the Iowa Civil Liberties Union, also voiced skepticism of O'Meara's explanation.

"If this was just a trespassing investigation, then why seek the records of the National Lawyers Guild?" he asked those at the rally.

Drake law professor Sally Frank, the university's local contact for the guild, told those at the rally that "what we've had here for the last week in Des Moines is an intense effort to stifle dissent."

Frank and others in the crowd symbolically placed tape or cloth over their mouths, while two Des Moines police detectives videotaped the event from a hotel room across from the federal building. The detectives said they were told to monitor the event "in case someone caused problems."

Several in the crowd carried signs critical of U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft.

U.S. Sen. Tom Harkin went a step further, asking Ashcroft in a letter to make sure civil liberties were not trampled on in this case. "Prosecutors should be especially vigilant about using extraordinary steps in cases when such a treasured American value as free speech is at stake," Harkin wrote.

U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley also expressed concern about the impression left on peace activists that they had been subpoenaed by the anti-terrorism task force.

"I will be following this case closely to help make sure that the Department of Justice protects and defends people's constitutional rights,'' Grassley said.







--------------------

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2392582 - 03/01/04 10:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
If America ever did turn into a police state, people like me would do FAR more to fix it than people like you would.



That's a laugh. That's like a hospital orderly cheering as somebody breaks your legs and then telling you that you should be grateful he's there to provide medical assistance.

No, you are helping to turn the U.S. into a police state by supporting actions which are opposed by the ideals upon which our nation was founded. Educate yourself on the concept of LIBERTY and try reading some of the documents written by the founders of our nation.

"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves."
- Henry David Thoreau


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: Evolving]
    #2394567 - 03/02/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
No, you are helping to turn the U.S. into a police state by supporting actions which are opposed by the ideals upon which our nation was founded. Educate yourself on the concept of LIBERTY and try reading some of the documents written by the founders of our nation.




If you can show me some reason that the police shouldn't have been at an open meeting that they were invited to, I'd like to see it. Since i've seen numerous conrasting articles on the event and the actions threof, all I can make a statement about is the presence of undercover policemen at the meeting. It was an open meeting. They sent invitations. I hardly see any problem with this.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 6 days
Re: Undercover at the peace conference [Re: Evolving]
    #2394654 - 03/02/04 12:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You know, I think the point TOYK was trying to make here was that if there was ever a real indication, as opposed to weenie whining, that we were actually becoming a totalitarian state he would have balls enough to act as opposed to oh, say, complaining.

Is there any set of circumstances under which you could see the value of preventive law enforcement activities as opposed to post fact investigation of crimes already committed?

POLICE STATE????? you pampered twit, you should have to live in one


--------------------


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