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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Jesus as Personal Savior
    #2388916 - 02/29/04 02:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This is a spin-off thread.

Frog: If there's a heaven, and if the only way you can reach it is by accepting
Jesus as your savior...


This is the popular view of many fundamanentalists and IMHO is an erroneous interpretation of the Gospel. At what arbitrary point in time did this new rule start? The nanosecond Christ died or the nanosecond after he spoke those words?

First we will assume that this statement is true and look at it logically.

1. All of the people before Jesus didn't have a prayer (pun intended).

2. Those presented the Gospel poorly so as not to be believeable will burn in hell for meeting only weak "salesmen".

3. Those Borneans, Fijians, Inuits, Native Americans, Africans (and others) who never heard the word will burn in hell forever.

4. Babies who died before confirming their faith will burn forever.

5. Those whose preconditioning in another faith (or non-faith) that precludes them from believing will burn for all eternity.

6. Those who are mentally retarded and cannot comprehend The Word will burn, baby, burn.

On and on it goes. To explain this Christian apologists must wiggle and squirm and print reams of excuses and subclauses and so on to make any sense of this.

Now the much simpler Swami explanantion which bypasses ALL such dilemmas: when Christ says no one comes to the Father except by me, he was "channeling" the Holy Spirit and was not speaking about his own personage. Putting it another way, until or unless one touches the "Ground of Being", one will never find contentment or satisfaction or lasting happiness (heaven). This is the same message as Buddah taught put in a different context.

However as it is much, much easier to superficially worship a dead man than do the real work required for personal transformation in order to touch the "Ground of Being", the convoluted explanation offered by the Fundamentalists will persist.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: Swami]
    #2388938 - 02/29/04 03:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but according to the older versions of Christ-insanity(pun), wasn't Enoch the first human being from Earth to ascend beyond the LIfe and Death cycle (ie, ascend into Heaven).


According to the Book of Enoch, I believe he was. Enoch was Noah's brother, and he came before Christ.



Therefore, ascension has always been possible to all human beings (escape from birth and death cycle) with or without Christ.


However, I think Christ showed people the path. (or A path)


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: Swami]
    #2389143 - 02/29/04 07:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

it is much, much easier to superficially worship a dead man 




??? :wtf:

I thought you just had to wear a cross necklace and sit in church one sunday a month.  Or something.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: Swami]
    #2389152 - 02/29/04 07:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Anyone who has heard the message of Jesus, and had the opportunity to get saved, but denies the opportunity will burn in hell.

For those before Jesus, they never heard the message and will go to heaven.

It says it somewhere in the bible, I will have to look it up when I get time.


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2389171 - 02/29/04 08:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

ledzepln86, i dont think the Bible says any such thing. If you find it, please do post where it is found.

swami, on this issue i agree with you about 100%...from just about every Christian i personally know (including family) all i've heard is, as you put it, "reams of excuses and subclauses," on this issue.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2389173 - 02/29/04 08:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

lol thats so silly :smile:

No offense, but honestly; it sounds quite unreasonable. Someone who has believed in Voodoo or whatever for 45 years hears about Christianity and is supposed to automatically shift their entire methodology of thinking and believing?

No. I refuse to believe God is truly that discriminate. Find peace, spread peace, learn to love all through selflessness. Those are the words that resound in my head when I listen to the teachings of Jesus or Buddha or any wise man for that matter.

Peace <- I type that out because I mean it


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2389470 - 02/29/04 10:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

supermarket said:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but according to the older versions of Christ-insanity(pun), wasn't Enoch the first human being from Earth to ascend beyond the LIfe and Death cycle (ie, ascend into Heaven).


According to the Book of Enoch, I believe he was. Enoch was Noah's brother, and he came before Christ.



Therefore, ascension has always been possible to all human beings (escape from birth and death cycle) with or without Christ.


However, I think Christ showed people the path. (or A path)




Interesting.  :wink:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: Swami]
    #2389783 - 03/01/04 12:22 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Love thy neighbor as thy self. That is the message of Jesus. The way interpret "coming to the father through Jesus," the way I interpret that is by following his message. To follow Jesus, we need only love and accept one another and forgive each other's sins. No need to focus on the superstitious nonsense about him being the one and only begotten son of God.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: silversoul7]
    #2389868 - 03/01/04 01:34 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

swami- wonderfull post, this is you at your best
evaluating erroneous and ethically offensive dogmas in the light of fresh and clear logic


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2389898 - 03/01/04 01:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

couldnt find the passage?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: CleverName]
    #2390082 - 03/01/04 04:00 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

CleverName: I haven't had the time to look it up.

If I can't find it, I will stand corrected. I'm not afraid to be wrong. :smile:


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2390100 - 03/01/04 04:21 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

ah, a sign of true intelligence, my friend. neither am i, so if you do find it, i would like to see.
anyone that can admits their mistakes and wrongs shows a certain level of intelligence, maturity, and responsibility that few have developed. good form.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: CleverName]
    #2390102 - 03/01/04 04:23 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: ]
    #2390111 - 03/01/04 04:30 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i understand.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: Swami]
    #2390654 - 03/01/04 11:31 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I tried posting this yesterday, but something kept fucking up...

Putting it another way, until or unless one touches the "Ground of Being", one will never find contentment or satisfaction or lasting happiness (heaven). This is the same message as Buddha taught put in a different context.

And it's the same message the that the Tao Te Ching presents, that Nietzsche goes on about, that William James goes on about, the same message I've seen in countless other religious teachings, etc.

The bottomline in spirituality is constant awareness, from which grows personal responsibility.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: Swami]
    #2390672 - 03/01/04 11:39 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
This is a spin-off thread.

Frog: If there's a heaven, and if the only way you can reach it is by accepting
Jesus as your savior...


This is the popular view of many fundamanentalists and IMHO is an erroneous interpretation of the Gospel. At what arbitrary point in time did this new rule start? The nanosecond Christ died or the nanosecond after he spoke those words?

First we will assume that this statement is true and look at it logically.

1. All of the people before Jesus didn't have a prayer (pun intended).

2. Those presented the Gospel poorly so as not to be believeable will burn in hell for meeting only weak "salesmen".

3. Those Borneans, Fijians, Inuits, Native Americans, Africans (and others) who never heard the word will burn in hell forever.

4. Babies who died before confirming their faith will burn forever.

5. Those whose preconditioning in another faith (or non-faith) that precludes them from believing will burn for all eternity.

6. Those who are mentally retarded and cannot comprehend The Word will burn, baby, burn.

On and on it goes. To explain this Christian apologists must wiggle and squirm and print reams of excuses and subclauses and so on to make any sense of this.

Now the much simpler Swami explanantion which bypasses ALL such dilemmas: when Christ says no one comes to the Father except by me, he was "channeling" the Holy Spirit and was not speaking about his own personage. Putting it another way, until or unless one touches the "Ground of Being", one will never find contentment or sastisfaction or lasting happiness (heaven). This is the same message as Buddah taught put in a different context.

However as it is much, much easier to superficially worship a dead man than do the real work required for personal transformation in order to touch the "Ground of Being", the convoluted explanation offered by the Fundamentalists will persist.




Even I wouldn't presume to say who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. I simply believe in what the bible says about coming to the Father through his Son.

I'm not sure of how the rules work, but obviously you know more than I. I also don't think God is as harsh as you, and I sincerely doubt that babies are going to hell, or someone who has absolutely never heard about God is going to hell.

much easier to superficially worship a dead man than do the real work required for personal transformation in order to touch the "Ground of Being"

Could you please interpret that statement??


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2390681 - 03/01/04 11:44 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ledzepln86 said:
Anyone who has heard the message of Jesus, and had the opportunity to get saved, but denies the opportunity will burn in hell.

For those before Jesus, they never heard the message and will go to heaven.

It says it somewhere in the bible, I will have to look it up when I get time.




I will go find this in the bible, or at least try to. I've either heard this or read this, so I will go look around. (I hope I don't forget.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: silversoul7]
    #2390687 - 03/01/04 11:47 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Love thy neighbor as thy self. That is the message of Jesus. The way interpret "coming to the father through Jesus," the way I interpret that is by following his message. To follow Jesus, we need only love and accept one another and forgive each other's sins. No need to focus on the superstitious nonsense about him being the one and only begotten son of God.

That is a another way of phrasing what I was trying to say. 

Same goes for sclorch.

:thumbup:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: Swami]
    #2390832 - 03/01/04 12:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ledzepln86 said:
Anyone who has heard the message of Jesus, and had the opportunity to get saved, but denies the opportunity will burn in hell.

For those before Jesus, they never heard the message and will go to heaven.





Hhmm.... I'm sorry, but I seriously don't understand how this concept works. Not at all. If a new law is passed banning.. say... reading books, and I was up in the hills reading, and no one told me of this new law... am I exempt from the law? How can someone be rewarded for ignorance?

Of course, my metaphor is totally bunk because it is GOD we are dealing with, and he works in mysterious ways... I.... see........

Quote:

Swami said:
Putting it another way, until or unless one touches the "Ground of Being", one will never find contentment or sastisfaction or lasting happiness (heaven). This is the same message as Buddah taught put in a different context.




:thumbup:

Okay, let's play a game. First off, let us all realize how hard it is to describe certain things. Sometimes feelings... to use some common ground, a killer mushroom trip.

Now, people who have had similar experiences, of course, are more capable of understanding what you are trying to describe. It is still pretty damned hard because the impact the experience you are trying to describe, this totally cosmic mushroom trip, leaves it really beyond words.

Hehe, well, we are playing a game. You, the reader, are NOW Jesus. You can borrow my old avatar if you want.
:wink:

Hei there, Jesus. Okay, now this is what the game entails. As Jesus, the very nature of the concept of the man, you have in your mind the most connected experience that anyone has ever had before, with the exception of a small handful (Buddha and Colonel Sanders comes to mind).

Well, you have all of this knowledge, experience, and understanding. You ARE Jesus. The avatar proves it. Now, you have decided to help mankind. The average Joseph Sixpack. :lol:

Anyways, to be more productive, you SERIOUSLY have THE WAY. Now, there aren't really any other people out there that really understand what you understand... maybe the dude who bathes people in water comes close, but they killed him out of ignorance!  :shocked:

So that serves as a lesson right there. Being totally evolved in understanding, people are BOUND to misunderstand you. You have to play a very careful dance here if you are going to help people. Well, there are a few people out there that totally feel your vibration, if not totally understanding why it is that they do, and they follow you.

Well, Jesus, my friend, you now have Disciples, and you now have a small network of human resources. :grin: To use a metaphor (we will get to that soon enough, hehe), you, as Jesus, are sort of like Shroomism and his Disciples on the Shroomery, setting out to start a revolution! :lol:

Anyways, on a side note, I really am having too much fun here. So, to get to the point, well, you go off and you start spreading the message. Well, we are going to leave the direct Jesus example here now because I don't want to get too lengthy.

You have this message that can barely be expressed by words. Not only that, but there aren't a lot of people around you that have more than just a glimpse of what you have seen. The majority of people aren't even going to be receptive at all to your thoughts, because they have their fixed way of thinking and they do not change. They only stick with what they were raised with. (how a lot of ideas are passed along).

So you are handing your message through a network of hands. Your message, in your mind, makes perfect sense. You pass it on to people who barely understand it.. and it continues on like this. The understanding getting dimmer and dimmer all the while. People who don't comprehend start taking it another way. They feel they KNOW and that they understand and they pass it on with THEIR understanding of this message, which totally wasn't the intended meaning...

And etc. etc.. I've lost focus. Anyways, ja, pieces of a puzzle. Pieces of a puzzle. Bringing most people to a point of understanding in even simple concepts is sometimes hard... and this is THE concept.

Blah blah blah... um.. I dunno where I am. So like..... Go kill people in my name!  :smirk:


:nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeeking_Gnosis
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Registered: 02/26/04
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Re: Jesus as Personal Savior [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2391183 - 03/01/04 02:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Supermarket, Yes, you are correct, it is Enoch. In Genesis 5:24 nkjv, it says " And Enoch walked with God: and he was not, for God took him." Enoch didn't die. You don't even have to read the book of Enoch to get that.  :wink:


--------------------
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't, no proof possible."


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