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NebulaTomb
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Re: Jesus died for our sins? [Re: OakTree]
#23886220 - 12/01/16 11:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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OakTree said: I've yet to meet a Christian who didn't think it was literal.
This is what is a shame about Christianity.
To give an idea of where I stand, Atheists say I'm a Christian and Christians say I'm an Atheist (Richard Dawkins also says I'm an Atheist in The God Delusion, although I think he focuses as much on literal and surface-level issues as the Christians that OP refers to).
I think once upon a time a man lived and this man was somewhat a genius in the fact that he understood the simplicity of the fact that if everyone loved everyone and helped each other and didn't screw each other over the world would be a better place. Quite a bit like Buddha, Lao Tzu, Ghandi, and the numerous folks mentioned in the Baha'i tradition. The story of this man became diluted over the years, and when the Roman Empire eventually adopted this religion, it incorporated many of its former Pagan beliefs into the tenets of the religion for the purpose of making it familiar to the people and to make it easier to convert the masses (the Plebeians as they called them) and control them. After all, Rome's signature move was to conquer and control.
The combination of the dilution of the story and the information added by the Romans, combined with the exclusion of certain books which depicted this man as a human instead of a god (i.e. the apocryphal texts/gnostic gospels) led to the superstitious aspects of his story. **I will say, Quantum Physics has all but proven that his miracles are possible; their probability just happens to be very low. This is beside the point however**.
When the English language was developed, the name given to this man was Jesus, and as the religion based around this man progressed, it became less concerned with his teachings of love, compassion, truth, and the fact that if we all help one another out the world will be a better place, and became more concerned with the magic stories. After all, magic is kind of like a shiny red ball; it catches people's attention without them having to think too hard.
People get too caught up in what they call "faith", which basically means to believe things that don't make sense in order to gain brownie points from an old white guy with a beard sitting on a golden throne in the clouds who will smite you if you don't do what the preacher tells you. What these people don't understand is, Jesus' actual message is provable, therefore you don't need blind faith. He basically just said "if everyone is nice to each other, life will be easier and more enjoyable". He also said some pretty cool things that are very reminiscent of Taoism, Buddhism, and Quantum Physics (which came 2,000 years later. As I said, somewhat of a genius). I won't go into these because I'd need to go back and find specific references and what not, and I don't have time right now.
Anyway, my point is that I have found, through extensive research, that Christianity has to a large extent missed the point. As a quick example (only one, I promise), I have a book called "Catechism of the Catholic Church". Catechism basically means a summary of what a group of people believes, so it is a book on how to be a good Christian. It is 756 pages of rules on how to be a Christian. However, Jesus said "my burden is easy, my yolk is light". So Jesus says it's easy while the church makes it so difficult that nobody could do it (unless they pay the church enough money, eh?). So either Jesus is a liar (in which case the entire religion is invalidated), or the church has missed the point. When you think about it, it's pretty easy to be nice to people, so my bet is on option B).
Sorry for the long post; this subject interests me very much. I think the actual historical guy around which the religion started was probably a great and interesting guy. However, having been raised Catholic I can tell you that for the most part (there are exceptions) you won't find anything in organized religion resembling the love, compassion and genius that said man exuded. The end.
Roman Catholicism is not Biblical Yeshua taught Christianity. like all "religious" systems, they add burdens instead of Grace.
The Vatican and the Papacy are Antichrist, part of the ancient Mystery Babylon traditions. Highly occult and demonic.
Im not saying that there arent Saved Christians within that system though.
Religion says "do this and this and this to get to heaven" The Gospel of Jesus Christ says " Jesus did it for you, He paid for your way in. Turn from your ways and put your Faith in Jesus"
Grace.Mercy. Salvation
-------------------- "Then Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as you would against a robber? While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.” Luke 22:52-53
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laughingdog
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to buy the notion: "Jesus died for our sins?" or "Jesus died for your sins?"
you have to buy into guilt
you have to buy into the idea there is something wrong with you
you have to buy into the idea that somebody thousands of years ago knew you would be born
you have to buy into the idea that somebody thousands of years ago knew you would fuck up
Which means you had no choice, it was all determined ahead of time, which contradicts the idea that you are responsible for your actions and capable of doing wrong or right
you have to buy into the idea there is something wrong with everybody
you have to buy into the idea that Jesus's unimaginably horrible suffering was necessary for you to deserve forgiveness, if you did something wrong
Which means "God" is the worst SOB ever
the true miracle is that this nasty self contradictory pile of crap version of Christianity has been sold for hundreds or thousands of years to folks who imagine they are intelligent.
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OrgoneConclusion
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NebulaTomb
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Quote:
laughingdog said: to buy the notion: "Jesus died for our sins?" or "Jesus died for your sins?"
you have to buy into guilt
you have to buy into the idea there is something wrong with you
you have to buy into the idea that somebody thousands of years ago knew you would be born
you have to buy into the idea that somebody thousands of years ago knew you would fuck up
Which means you had no choice, it was all determined ahead of time, which contradicts the idea that you are responsible for your actions and capable of doing wrong or right
you have to buy into the idea there is something wrong with everybody
you have to buy into the idea that Jesus's unimaginably horrible suffering was necessary for you to deserve forgiveness, if you did something wrong
Which means "God" is the worst SOB ever
the true miracle is that this nasty self contradictory pile of crap version of Christianity has been sold for hundreds or thousands of years to folks who imagine they are intelligent.
i "buy" into most of what you said. i have no shame in saying i am a broken human who misses the mark and messes up daily.
i am forever thankful for the Love and Grace of Jesus Christ.
yes, your right, He knew us from before the foundation of the World. He is Outside Space And Time, both of which are His creations. We do have have free choice, we are not robots. He doesnt make our choices, but He knew in advance what would eventually "play out" . This is mind blowing. its beyond us.
but a God that can be 100% understood in all His ways to a mere human mind wouldnt be much of a God anyway.
-------------------- "Then Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as you would against a robber? While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.” Luke 22:52-53
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Jesus died for our sins? [Re: NebulaTomb]
#23888573 - 12/02/16 07:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i have no shame in saying i am a broken human who misses the mark and messes up daily.
When the result of my labor is flawed, I blame the object I created and not myself. 
At least you have failed to address the point of this thread that Jesus, if God, made virtually no sacrifice whatsoever.
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LunarEclipse
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:

I want my Twin Flame to Burn with me.
Kidding I have no twin flame LOL.
Burn!
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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NebulaTomb
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
i have no shame in saying i am a broken human who misses the mark and messes up daily.
When the result of my labor is flawed, I blame the object I created and not myself. 
At least you have failed to address the point of this thread that Jesus, if God, made virtually no sacrifice whatsoever.
His Creation was perfect before The Fall. the flaw is not His fault. Sin is the problem.
also, i did address your original topic. Jesus did make a sacrifice, He shed His blood and gave His Life and suffered punishment for things He did not do. He experienced seperation from The Father, who He had been with from Eternity.
He went into the Heart of The Earth(Hollow Earth ( a spiritual realm of the dead, and freed the souls of those who has faith in YHWH before The Cross)
He then rose from the dead, and left the Tomb, and some time later Ascended into Heaven, where He is now, until He comes back .
first time as a "sacrifical Lamb", second time as a Warrior "Lion"
-------------------- "Then Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as you would against a robber? While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.” Luke 22:52-53
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Jesus died for our sins? [Re: NebulaTomb]
#23889079 - 12/02/16 09:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you say so
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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NebulaTomb
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: If you say so
look into it your self , dont take my word
-------------------- "Then Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as you would against a robber? While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.” Luke 22:52-53
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Jesus died for our sins? [Re: NebulaTomb]
#23892645 - 12/04/16 01:19 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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It makes no real difference to me if any religion is true or false or something else altogether.
Because I am like a blind ass. And I cant even find a self anywhere. so there is no one to save and no one to live and no one to die. One big mystery of great perfection marvelously responding in all directions and not leaving a trace behind. Getting late, time for bed!
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/04/16 02:09 AM)
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OakTree
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: It makes no real difference to me if any religion is true or false or something else altogether.
Because I am like a blind ass. And I cant even find a self anywhere. so there is no one to save and no one to live and no one to die. One big mystery of great perfection marvelously responding in all directions and not leaving a trace behind. Getting late, time for bed!
There is no one to go to bed
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Jesus died for our sins? [Re: OakTree]
#23894182 - 12/04/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (12/04/16 02:56 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Huehuecoyotl
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It's just a fairy tale dude. Don't get upset.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You do? 
I haven't a clue. 
Even NOW no clue?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: It's just a fairy tale dude. Don't get upset.
Technically, fairytales are rather regional. [Incarnated] Life -> Death -> Resurrection -> Ascension more properly belongs to myth. This is not a regional, but a universal theme. The Christian mythos belongs to the world's sacred myths. Below regional influences would be the particularities of folklore, and before that individual dreams. They all seem to be iterations of structures that comprise the unconscious, from a Jungian perspective. People DO become upset because whether we acknowledge these verities or allow them to remain unconscious to us, they comprise the very structure of our psychic foundation. For those who acknowledge these myths, they serve to order one's universe and impart meaning to life. Loss of meaning = loss of soul. Nobody wants to be 'spaced' from the 'airlock' of faith into a cold, lifeless, meaningless void. I can relate.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: It's just a fairy tale dude. Don't get upset.

The story of David and Goliath was for realz, though...
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laughingdog
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
It's just a fairy tale dude. Don't get upset.
people didn't get burned at the stake for not believing the Brother Grimms' tales
and no it not just a myth either as it is illogical and self contradictory it promotes, when force fed by elders, who punish, a lack of trust in one's own mind it promotes guilt I didn't even list all the levels of mind fuck that are packed into this idea let alone the questionable (actually sick) practice of filling public places with statues of a man being tortured
Edited by laughingdog (12/04/16 08:05 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus died for our sins? [Re: OakTree]
#23895085 - 12/04/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've yet to meet a Christian who didn't think it was literal.
Pleased to make your acquaintance! Although I hesitate to disclose to people in this present time that I'm Christian, Jewish-Christian, Gnostic Christian, or Jewish-Christian Entheogenic Gnostic (which would sound pretentious if it didn't sound absurd), I nevertheless consider Christ to be an anthropomorphic symbol for the Logos, and the Logos is very God. The Logos is said to be differentiated from the Unmanifest Godhead, but I'm merely introducing myself to you here as a non-literalist, not discussing the philosophy of Philo of Alexandria on the Logos because (1) essentially I endeavor to embody the "mind of Christ," and (2) Literalist, fundamentalist Christianity pretends to be authentic Christianity but it is more like a modern heresy.
The Gospel narratives were written as Jewish midrash, just as all midrash was. Midrash was a literary style intended to impart spiritual truths in Judaism, not intended to serve as historical narrative in any modern sense of journalistic or scientific accuracy. There was nobody from the Bethlehem Gazette recording a glow-in-the-dark infant with a mobile, localized astronomical anomaly directly above his 100 watt radiance. What complicates things is threefold: (1) Gentile Christians are abysmally ignorant of ancient Judaism, (2) Most everyone who does not delve into the origin of the New Testament fails to see (a) it was written in order to coalesce virtually every Jewish prophesy into this one man Y'shu, for political purposes, and (b) virtually every story in the NT derives almost verbatim from the Egyptian Coffin Texts and Pyramid Texts. (3) The hybridization of Jewish midrash with Greek myth, creates a Jewish demigod born of God and a mortal woman like Heracles or Dionysos (Matthew misinterpreted 'virgin' form 'young woman' because he used the Greek Septuigint which didn't have separate words. The original Hebrew Isaiah passage makes the mother of the Messiah a 'young woman,' (almah) NOT a virgin (bethula). This is a major reason why Jews have not accepted the Christian development into Judaism, its Pagan mythic aspect.
(See Liberating the Gospels: reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes by Rev. John Shelby Spong for the writing of the NT and Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection by D.M. Murdock on the derivation of New Testament stories from Egyptian sources).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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laughingdog
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what the christian right is doing to the USA is an example of what swallowing mind fuck, like: "jesus died for your/our sins." from childhood does to people. Who needs critical reasoning skills, when you have faith?
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