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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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The Death of the American Dream
#23879771 - 11/29/16 08:36 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon. I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.
What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"? Is it or was it real? Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kush_Zombie
smug piece of shit



Registered: 10/22/14
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It's very real, you just have to be asleep to dream it.
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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Khancious
da Crow



Registered: 12/05/12
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"It's a big fuckin' shopping mall" - Carlin
lol
No doubt, plantations have never went out of style, they've just transformed into euphemistic necessity.
The heavy hitters are the creators, manifesting dreams and reaping the fruit which includes the money without enslaving to the assembly line.
Although I do admire those that live "off-grid", and in harmony with nature with no dependency on anything but the environment.
-------------------- I am that, which is.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"? Is it or was it real? Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?
funny synchronicity
this evening I am studying consumerism on youtube was watching videos on how to disconnect from facebook night before last and the subject came up so I went to youtube and put in "history of consumerism" and got many choices so far they are all interesting and amazing https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=history+of+consumerism+ this is documented stuff - (not conspiracy theory) - but we were never taught any of it. Anyway it seems fundamental to understanding some of the roots of how we all got in this mess. it definitely predates 1970 it all starts back in the 1700 in Europe but pivotal moments happened in the US in the 1920s and 1950s it's fascinating stuff with some real villains
one of the villains: Edward Bernays ——————————
Edited by laughingdog (11/29/16 09:39 PM)
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23880016 - 11/29/16 09:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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one of the villains: Edward Bernays - - - ‘Propaganda’ a book by Edward Bernays
“Bernays’ honest and practical manual provides much insight into some of the most powerful and influential institutions of contemporary industrial state capitalist democracies.”—Noam Chomsky
free pdf of book http://whale.to/b/bernays.pdf - - - - -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays
“He felt this manipulation was necessary in society, which he regarded as irrational and dangerous as a result of the "herd instinct" that Trotter had described.[2]Adam Curtis's award-winning 2002 documentary for theBBC, The Century of the Self, pinpoints Bernays as the originator of modern public relations, and Bernays was named one of the 100 most influential Americans of the 20th century by Life magazine.[3]”
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23880080 - 11/29/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23880169 - 11/29/16 10:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's interesting, I'll check those links out.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon. I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.
What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"? Is it or was it real? Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?
I think that if you learn hard, and work hard, you have a shot to get lucky still. There were never any guarantees, and that is more true than ever now, but "the american dream" is possible for many people with reasonable aspirations. I plan to be an aquaponic farmer one day. I've been taking business, botany/horticulture, and marine science classes. I've got a lot of it worked out, and once i have some credentials, i'll round up some investors and and parley that into a sizable SBA loan for the land/buildings/equipment. Might even be able to wrangle an AG grant depending on what they feel like pushing that year. In a sense, my american dream is similar to that of many early americans. Own some land, grow some crops, maybe raise a few animals and make a bit of money. It won't make me a billionaire probably, but it's attainable.
--------------------
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23880288 - 11/29/16 11:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've always seen the "American dream" as basically one big Ponzi scheme. The measures of success set in stone and dictated by the elite. The gap between haves and nots ever widened because fundamentally that's the underlining motive. You can't all have it all and nor should you. Much like the Ponzi scheme there is not built in off switch it will continue till it and we implode.....fun while it lasted though eh?
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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MollyLucyMaryJane

Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 1,302
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: pineninja]
#23880369 - 11/30/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Im an American and my dream is to see other countries as much as possible. Other cultures, smells, foods ect.
The American dream is and always has been a stereotype to what the majority of Americans eventually end up doing with their lives. House,wife,kids,1.5 dogs, white picket fence.
In the end there never was an "American dream" as all Americans dream about different things, be it skydiving, scuba diving, cliff jumping or just watching football every sunday.
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zzripz
Stranger


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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23880961 - 11/30/16 08:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon. I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.
What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"? Is it or was it real? Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?
I think that if you learn hard, and work hard, you have a shot to get lucky still. There were never any guarantees, and that is more true than ever now, but "the american dream" is possible for many people with reasonable aspirations. I plan to be an aquaponic farmer one day. I've been taking business, botany/horticulture, and marine science classes. I've got a lot of it worked out, and once i have some credentials, i'll round up some investors and and parley that into a sizable SBA loan for the land/buildings/equipment. Might even be able to wrangle an AG grant depending on what they feel like pushing that year. In a sense, my american dream is similar to that of many early americans. Own some land, grow some crops, maybe raise a few animals and make a bit of money. It won't make me a billionaire probably, but it's attainable.
I wish you the best of good luck, ballsalsa.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: pineninja]
#23880966 - 11/30/16 08:47 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
pineninja said: I've always seen the "American dream" as basically one big Ponzi scheme. The measures of success set in stone and dictated by the elite. The gap between haves and nots ever widened because fundamentally that's the underlining motive. You can't all have it all and nor should you. Much like the Ponzi scheme there is not built in off switch it will continue till it and we implode.....fun while it lasted though eh?
This is where my sentiments lie. Nice post.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

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planned obsolescence
Milton Friedman influential economist
advertising, advertising repetition, advertising psychology, manipulation of the public, Edward Bernays (Freud’s Nephew), mind control, public relations, spin, convincing women to smoke, linking it to women’s liberation
advertising exploitation of emotion and unconscious “stuff and buying will make you happy
branding, brand awareness
concept of luxury goods jewelry, cosmetics, designer clothing
Religion
mass production, factories, assembly line, Henry Ford, automation
Adam Smith, capitalism
Department stores invented 1852
production out paces population (1860) -1920s ratio of 3 to 12 (at 29 min) corporations mandated to have profit as highest goal by law John Edgerton production as an end in itself citizen replaced by consumer people must be convinced their identity depends upon consumption of unnecessary products after 1920 selling based on psychology, not merit or function
“The status seekers” Vance Packard, merchants of discontent
American Dream defined at 37 & 38:29
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DividedQuantum
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23881589 - 11/30/16 01:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hugely interesting. "Happiness was just one possession away." Really sick stuff. Unfortunately, it's the reality for probably well over a hundred million American citizens. One of the speakers in the video described 'relative deprivation' as a major psychological component of the American psyche. He was describing people who feel that $5 or $10 million is not enough, and don't even think of themselves as rich if that's what they've got.
We live in an utterly twisted society.
Ultimately, the engine fueling this whole debacle is the fabrication of wants, and you've laid out some very exact evidence in this thread for precisely that. There's been nothing like it in the history of the world; this shit makes Rome look like a monastery.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Hugely interesting. .... We live in an utterly twisted society. .... There's been nothing like it in the history of the world; this shit makes Rome look like a monastery.
indeed it's an amazing story I continue to study it and as you have pointed out more automation will be the next step in this folly also perhaps you remember the movie "Wag the Dog" about 'spin' where advertising goes to a whole new level and of course with recent events...
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23881699 - 11/30/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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the combination of war and reserve banking force the public into a neverending battle against inflation where by it's nature, no amount of money will ever be enough to hedge against what the government takes in the form of inflation to wage wars. It's pretty convenient for promoting a society enslaved to money.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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The 'American Dream' died when the wage gap began to grow and money found a way to influence politicians in the 1970's.
Without a minimum wage of $12-15 it'll probably stay that way, additionally of course Citizens United needs to be overturned with an amendment.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23881990 - 11/30/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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A dream?
The politics are always grasp, but it seems like the things people say sometimes have some basis, and humanness and at least a decent idea or principle behind them in my experience. Is it the same for many nations of the world? Is it we have a general ideal, but also our particular optimism in America.
I have always liked the way some of the first generation of American poets and intellectuals - especially the early transcendentalists - wrote. Walt Whitman on the "largesse" of America. Is how "true" this generosity is in our day, how true it must be...? Henry David Thoreau in Civil Disobedience, more critically, that government, (and he seems to be speaking of an American government simpliciter) is "necessary expedience"...
What I take to be the american dream, has to precede its ideal in a way, and just be an idea. To speak of justice and human rights, and the basic possibility of economical prosperity is said to rounded and interrelated thing for Americans. Why? Well, DQ, I think you are familiar with Noam Chomsky's critique Madisonian Democracy; the fact that one of our founding fathers perceived a threat in democracy, and a need to protect an Aristocracy from what he called a "too democratic" or "too participatory" system. Naturally we take it for granted that there was a basic idea and basic claim, but apparently it was much more of a dialogue.
So I don't know how much sense it makes to put it in philosophical terms, but if this notion is central, (as we must take it) it also dialectically projects its meaning outward. This would say that socio-economical prosperity, and a right to pursue life liberty and happiness, is a right that is found in unique dialogue with its very possibility. So as you point out, right on point - If our economical tendencies become inflated and deflated, so do our basic american ideals, and how we think of them.
There is something I have been thinking about recently (especially since the election) which I think relates to your question.
I think in certain ways, an American ethic (which in a human and humane attitude precedes politics, and is not necessarily per se political) is based on criticizing the means of expedience, which are vast. Whitman could not have recognized this in his day's progressive humanism. It is much less poetic. For instance, if I buy fair trade coffee - or even if I support local farms, the ethical prerogative which I act within, is based on the existence of this far spread system and structure which I criticize for the most part. I try to mitigate this violence. Am I this reflex, or am I this reaction?
For whatever technical prerogative this strongly utilitarian ethics has in fairness, and meeting the other, it is not face to face. If I concern myself about the real structural-historical problem of racism, I typically lean up against the walls I write upon and against. To put it squarely philosophical language, in utilitarian ethics, in order to critique something this way, a system, it must be there.
That seems to me to be the down side of America's largesse, and I don't know... maybe collectively or as a nation we are on the worse side of it? It may have been a great idea when we were expanding the frontier, great to mechanize and industrialize when were fighting two world wars. This industrious spirit is expansive. The same notions must inform our contemporary world, and so it seems like people like us who occasionally think on these things, look to how an american dream can be justified. Should it be? Must it be...? Or is it a train off its tracks? Maybe we conscience thinking about it as much as we must, and just try to live our lives these days individually or with a pocket of friends and community. I am sure a few of us dream of simplicity, and a reasonably just system, and that is something to be modestly optimistic about...
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DividedQuantum
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Kurt] 1
#23882058 - 11/30/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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If the train is not off the tracks, it is at least going ninety miles an hour with no possibility of stopping quickly. You mention the founders of this country. That was an extremely different time. I would say that an ideal approximating what we call the "American Dream" may have been in place during the birth of our nation, as the notion of democratic republicanism was very new and exciting. It had never been tried before, anywhere. Jefferson was foremost of the idealists and dreamers that America, through its democracy and republican values (which meant something different at the time), as well as a more libertarian social dynamic, would amount to a country exhibiting essentially a political and existential paradise. Such an outlook was appropriate for their ignorance around the turn of the nineteenth century. Along about the Jackson administration, one could no longer sanely hold that view. The American Dream has been dead for a long time, and we seem to keep exhuming the body every couple of decades to flog it some more and then re-inter it.
When one looks at some of the things Jefferson said and did, it seems appallingly naive and foolishly idealistic. The Federalists of the day were appropriately more cynical than the Republicans, people like John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, and even Washington to an extent, urging the early nation that Jefferson's pure democracy, with smaller government and an agrarian framework, would be a failure, especially in the northern states.
These Federalists constitute the position you mentioned.
I think it is safe to say that the Federalists were more right; however, if any one of those people were alive today they would undoubtedly say their experiment was a failure. Even in the time of Jefferson, the nation was slipping away to corruption, financial speculation, yellow journalism, and the like. What we have is not what the founders intended, not by a long stretch.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
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it should of course be mentioned that Jefferson had slaves which also brings up the question which Americans are we talking about in 'the dream' ...t this doesn't just mean the usual minorities ... Women didn't have the right to vote for a long time they still don't get equal pay The USA had child labor for a long time... the list of the disenfrachised goes on...
In my mind it seems like it was just a myth of the 1950s for the white upper-middle class around the time dishwashers were becoming, affordable for the 'average' white upper-middle class family
but I guess there's more to the story as
apparently imigrants want to come to this country because the others are so much worse
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Loc: Building 7
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Make America Great Again. Appoint Treasury Secretary From Goldman Sachs.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse] 1
#23882915 - 11/30/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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exactly - Make America Great Again.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23882946 - 11/30/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm old enough to remember smoking "sections" on planes.
LOL.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23882953 - 11/30/16 08:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You ain't seen nothin' yet.
I don't believe in any conspiracy theories or crazy crap... but this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,568
Loc: Utah
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Maybe it never existed. Maybe it exists only as much as we believe that it exists. It's just an idea at the end of the day, and different people have different versions of what the idea means.
Can the average person realistically expect a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, a wife, a white picket fence, a job for life, and a good retirement in America today? Fuck no. But even back in the 50s, that kind of shit was actually really rare. Most people were still getting fucked just as hard as they're getting fucked today.
During the depression, they had posters and murals depicting the american dream literally directly above breadlines. Even while the average person was starving, homeless, and jobless at the peak of the great depression, this idea of the american dream was still being propagated.
It's always been just an idea, and that idea is what we make of it. To some people, the American dream is just about being able to achieve more than their parents. To others its about opening a business and becoming financially successful. Who are you or I to tell someone that their idea about the dream is wrong?
We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea. If you want to say that the American dream is living in an apartment and working your ass off 50+ hours a week at minimum wage, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? How would you even define "wrong" when you're talking about a subjective idea to begin with?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: klhouse]
#23882958 - 11/30/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
klhouse said: You ain't seen nothin' yet.
I don't believe in any conspiracy theories or crazy crap... but this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
Honestly, if I had to listen to that guy for more than a minute, I might just have to hurt myself.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: nooneman] 2
#23883039 - 11/30/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Maybe it never existed. Maybe it exists only as much as we believe that it exists. It's just an idea at the end of the day, and different people have different versions of what the idea means.
Can the average person realistically expect a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, a wife, a white picket fence, a job for life, and a good retirement in America today? Fuck no. But even back in the 50s, that kind of shit was actually really rare. Most people were still getting fucked just as hard as they're getting fucked today.
During the depression, they had posters and murals depicting the american dream literally directly above breadlines. Even while the average person was starving, homeless, and jobless at the peak of the great depression, this idea of the american dream was still being propagated.
It's always been just an idea, and that idea is what we make of it. To some people, the American dream is just about being able to achieve more than their parents. To others its about opening a business and becoming financially successful. Who are you or I to tell someone that their idea about the dream is wrong?
We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea. If you want to say that the American dream is living in an apartment and working your ass off 50+ hours a week at minimum wage, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? How would you even define "wrong" when you're talking about a subjective idea to begin with?
You're right, there's a lot of subjectivity to it, and it's not well defined. It could be different things to different people. I tend to think of it in the broadest sense as being about becoming rich and/or famous = being happy. Clearly, many people wouldn't agree with that. But I think a lot of people do, and I think that is a major factor in what keeps this carousel turning. When the punishments start to outweigh the rewards, things have a tendency to change. Not necessarily for the better.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: klhouse]
#23883043 - 11/30/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
klhouse said: You ain't seen nothin' yet. ... this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
interesting video yup automation is a game changer also under reported is CRISPR which will also be a huge game changer before long https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CRISPR combined with global warming and recent politics, etc. things are about to get very hairy for the next generation
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Khancious
da Crow



Registered: 12/05/12
Posts: 628
Loc: Behind Everything
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
nooneman said: We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea.
I tend to think of it in the broadest sense as being about becoming rich and/or famous = being happy. Clearly, many people wouldn't agree with that. But I think a lot of people do, and I think that is a major factor in what keeps this carousel turning.

Well stated... we all come into the world with a blank slate of experience and perception. The way we process life might all just be conditioned by our environment from the beginning... so at the basics, if we are still alive, obviously there were people to keep our lights lit by quenching our thirst and hunger, the foundation for longevity. These needs are a driving force, the seed, roots and trunk for all else that branches.
Living in the civilized world has only skewed our awareness to equate that driving force with money because everything has a dollar sign on it, conceptually of course but when a populous agrees on a idea, it becomes "real".
How much money and what you want to do with it is just dressing on the salad, some put their core energies into dreaming up a life beyond basic instincts as we navigate towards hedonistic fulfillment in an american way, which opens a gate into another field of subjectiveness, especially when Love fits into the picture.
-------------------- I am that, which is.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Khancious] 1
#23883719 - 12/01/16 06:08 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Many seem to think The American Dream of owning your house won't take a lot of work. Sure, you can probably take out a mortgage on a house, and pay interest for years, property taxes, insurance and maintenance, but that means you don't own your house.
In fact, you can never own your house, as long as the taxman keeps ringing up a yearly bill. Miss a property tax payment and watch the penalties slap you in the face. Not only interest, but an 8% principal penalty! Don't miss one of those payments or you'll be sorry. I was.
The demographics of home ownership in this country are horrible. Too many baby boomers needing to downsize at some point. Maybe they have a second retirement house and sell their main house. When their kids have to move out of the basement then, it will only add to the rental market. Most millenials are flat effing broke, in student loan debt, car debt, credit card debt. No way they are buying a house.
Plus, the numbers are skewed, all those kids after WW2 made for a peak in population that won't be made up by the younger folks.
The housing market is actually right back to where it was in 2006-7 right before it got bitch slapped hard, which is about to begin given interest rates moving up. Since nobody has cash, they have to rely on mortgages and the payment is all important as to what price of house they can afford. Affordability already sucked even at/because of? record low rates, and now it gets even worse.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23883958 - 12/01/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Very interesting.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
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Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog] 1
#23884368 - 12/01/16 12:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
klhouse said: You ain't seen nothin' yet. ... this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
interesting video yup automation is a game changer also under reported is CRISPR which will also be a huge game changer before long https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CRISPR combined with global warming and recent politics, etc. things are about to get very hairy for the next generation
Well stated. Throw in radicalized religion and a growing movement of anti-intellectualism...
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
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XpandedMind
Human



Registered: 12/01/16
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: klhouse] 1
#23886892 - 12/02/16 08:47 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I love the idea of the American Dream. It breeds a sense of opportunity and self-empowerment. In a society where laws, regulations, social and religious dogma have become accepted to the point that if they are questioned you are marginalized, ostracized, or even labeled irrational and crazy. It brings this beautiful idea to a screeching halt. In order for ideals such as the American Dream to be realized we need a society the asks the hard questions and accepts the hard answers. A society that allows room for the organic growth of the collective, not expecting the growth and evolution of the world to fit into some systemic model.
In conclusion, I do not believe it currently exists. However, I do believe it is possible.
-------------------- "For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..." - Alan Watts
Edited by XpandedMind (12/02/16 08:49 AM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
#23886936 - 12/02/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
XpandedMind said: I love the idea of the American Dream. It breeds a sense of opportunity and self-empowerment. In a society where laws, regulations, social and religious dogma have become accepted to the point that if they are questioned you are marginalized, ostracized, or even labeled irrational and crazy. It brings this beautiful idea to a screeching halt. In order for ideals such as the American Dream to be realized we need a society the asks the hard questions and accepts the hard answers. A society that allows room for the organic growth of the collective, not expecting the growth and evolution of the world to fit into some systemic model.
In conclusion, I do not believe it currently exists. However, I do believe it is possible.
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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XpandedMind
Human



Registered: 12/01/16
Posts: 16
Loc: 3rd working on the 4th Di...
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23887168 - 12/02/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
Individual growth is the catalyst for the integration into a collective mind. In other words it is a means to an end. If we all stopped at the individual it would still remain a selfish world. We keep what we have only by giving it away.
Being self-sufficient means you do not rely on any outside force to achieve what ever it is you are attempting to achieve. Thus, once we achieve self-sufficiency and regain our connection to mother earth the monetary, political, and destructive scientific systems you mentioned will become irrelevant. I believe that what we are seeing here and now is us wading through the garbage of our dire mistakes in the past. We cannot have growth without accepting and correcting what we have already done. Unfortunately, that responsibility falls onto us as individuals and ultimately the collective. So my question for you is, If you believe change starts at the individual(which I am in agreement with), why bother with outside forces you and I both know will not change without a significant shift in the collective mind triggered by individual empowerment? We should recognize the issues at hand. However, our focus should be mainly on the self for the good of the collective. Otherwise, we are wasting valuable energy focusing on something that requires change within a broken system. Not the individual.
-------------------- "For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..." - Alan Watts
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
#23888196 - 12/02/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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One could define self sufficiency when Thoreau went to Walden. But today with a power grid that can have brown outs and worse, and everything computerized and computers dependent on the grid, as well as food production dependent on the fossil fuel: oil/gasoline, whose price is rigged by politics, and financial dealers, we are all much more interdependent than we realize. All it takes is some sort of accident (could be as simple as food poisoning), that effects us or a loved one, and we have the need for a hospital, and once again we realize our dependence on society, much as we may dislike it. The American dream was partly the John Wayne myth. But those days are over. Many go mountain climbing and do other risky things to get the temporary feeling of great independence. Others get an off the grid home in New Mexico. But in my opinion gestures don't equal reality. I do have the choice not to watch TV, and I don't. I do have the choice not to identify with a sports team and much other social folly, but true self sufficiency? no way - I turn on the tap and water comes out. I turn on the computer and use the grid to get to this website, and engage in some minimal social behavior.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
#23888660 - 12/02/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
XpandedMind said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
Individual growth is the catalyst for the integration into a collective mind. In other words it is a means to an end. If we all stopped at the individual it would still remain a selfish world. We keep what we have only by giving it away.
Being self-sufficient means you do not rely on any outside force to achieve what ever it is you are attempting to achieve. Thus, once we achieve self-sufficiency and regain our connection to mother earth the monetary, political, and destructive scientific systems you mentioned will become irrelevant. I believe that what we are seeing here and now is us wading through the garbage of our dire mistakes in the past. We cannot have growth without accepting and correcting what we have already done. Unfortunately, that responsibility falls onto us as individuals and ultimately the collective. So my question for you is, If you believe change starts at the individual(which I am in agreement with), why bother with outside forces you and I both know will not change without a significant shift in the collective mind triggered by individual empowerment? We should recognize the issues at hand. However, our focus should be mainly on the self for the good of the collective. Otherwise, we are wasting valuable energy focusing on something that requires change within a broken system. Not the individual.
You assume I agree that the individual needs to work within the collective to get things done. I don't see it that way, in fact the more you move with the herd, the less things get done. Your connection between the individual and the collective is a false narrative, hence your confusion.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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XpandedMind
Human



Registered: 12/01/16
Posts: 16
Loc: 3rd working on the 4th Di...
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23889113 - 12/02/16 09:40 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
XpandedMind said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
Individual growth is the catalyst for the integration into a collective mind. In other words it is a means to an end. If we all stopped at the individual it would still remain a selfish world. We keep what we have only by giving it away.
Being self-sufficient means you do not rely on any outside force to achieve what ever it is you are attempting to achieve. Thus, once we achieve self-sufficiency and regain our connection to mother earth the monetary, political, and destructive scientific systems you mentioned will become irrelevant. I believe that what we are seeing here and now is us wading through the garbage of our dire mistakes in the past. We cannot have growth without accepting and correcting what we have already done. Unfortunately, that responsibility falls onto us as individuals and ultimately the collective. So my question for you is, If you believe change starts at the individual(which I am in agreement with), why bother with outside forces you and I both know will not change without a significant shift in the collective mind triggered by individual empowerment? We should recognize the issues at hand. However, our focus should be mainly on the self for the good of the collective. Otherwise, we are wasting valuable energy focusing on something that requires change within a broken system. Not the individual.
You assume I agree that the individual needs to work within the collective to get things done. I don't see it that way, in fact the more you move with the herd, the less things get done. Your connection between the individual and the collective is a false narrative, hence your confusion.
Your statements and arguements thus far have been highly contradictory. Which suggests confusion on your part. Im finding this a bit counter productive so I am going to politely excuse myself from this conversation. I will leave you with a quote. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead.
-------------------- "For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..." - Alan Watts
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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There never was an American Dream. So lets just Make America Great Again and move on...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
#23897467 - 12/05/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon. I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.
What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"? Is it or was it real? Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?
Not being a huge fan of Thompson's works (although I am a fan of how he chose to live his life, despite those he may have hurt along the way), i'm not familiar with his definition of "The American Dream."
If in fact he does clearly define this, would you mind posting his definition as a general reference and to clarify your OP? Thanks
Every person lives in a land of opportunity. It all depends on how they perceive the conditions they live in, in conjunction with their own independent/personal goals. Certainly, some localities/municipalities/governments are more oppressive than others, but that doesn't mean there isn't a way for one to do what they want; it does mean the cost of being exposed as such varies.
my idea of the "American Dream" is not having any external authority controlling or influencing, in any way, any aspect of my life. however, this is not possible. even if i didn't drive, or didn't earn an income, there are still people, externally, who are polluting the air and water i ingest. since this is not possible, i choose not to believe in my own idea(l) "Dream" but do the best i can with what i have, making choices that minimizes my impact on the land and other organisms as much as possible. that being said, i drive a truck, i run a chain saw, and unfortunately this year will be buying much of my food (as opposed to years passed where i or myself and a few others grew the majority if not all of our food.)
the "Dream", like many idea(l)s, is best left maleable as opposed to rigid. nothing in this experience is static besides death.
Quote:
Khancious said: Although I do admire those that live "off-grid", and in harmony with nature with no dependency on anything but the environment.
very, very few, especially in any first- or second- world country, despite living "off-grid" are completely self-sustaining. very few people have the means to forge the basic tools needed for even small-scale agriculture. very few are able to use native soil to raise starts, and thus are dependent on commercial "potting 'soil'" to even begin raising food. most have to purchase scion-wood from commercial facilities which are often tied in a number of ways to "the system." And so on and so forth. do you wear glasses? do you brush your teeth? maybe you don't brush, but you oil pull/rinse. okay. and on and on and on and on and on.
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DividedQuantum said: Hugely interesting. "Happiness was just one possession away." Really sick stuff. Unfortunately, it's the reality for probably well over a hundred million American citizens. One of the speakers in the video described 'relative deprivation' as a major psychological component of the American psyche. He was describing people who feel that $5 or $10 million is not enough, and don't even think of themselves as rich if that's what they've got.
We live in an utterly twisted society.
5-10 million dollars is nothing when one is fully vested. one's worth may be 5-10 million, but is irrelevant if one's debts (oddly, credit in this sense may be a form of debt) is also 5-10 million. i personally know lots of people who may seem "rich" monetarily or in possessions, but they are either even or over their heads with what they owe compared to what they have. their "richness" often stems from, as khancious touches on, that they aren't enslaved by anyone. they choose how to spend their time. i'm almost 30 and consider myself retired, even though i'm generally dangling above being broke, because i spend my time doing what i want. fortunately, what i want to do is a way for me to make a living. if i don't want to work a specific job that day, i don't. what i do for a living, i also do for pleasure at my own place (note, i don't "OWN" or hold any title to my place, 120 acres total, with an active area of about 3-5 acres and 115-117 acres of playground, but i have been given liberty by the owner to do as i wish.)
Quote:
Ultimately, the engine fueling this whole debacle is the fabrication of wants, and you've laid out some very exact evidence in this thread for precisely that. There's been nothing like it in the history of the world; this shit makes Rome look like a monastery.
i disagree. i'm not 100% certain, but i believe it was the Aztecs who farmed themselves out of existence. more specifically, they monocropped themselves out of existence. they went from a culture of plenty to a culture of excess to a non-existent culture which then dispersed across the land. they completely degraded the health of the soil, leading to mass erosion, all in the name of what we would call "profit." through trade, they obtained non-vital possessions, metals for tools, metals for ornaments, cloth for clothing beyond what they needed. wealth and status are the two driving factors for one to produce beyond what one needs for sustenance. the "law of supply and demand" is not a natural law. it is one of a culture that has exceeded their base needs and still isn't satisfied.
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sudly said: The 'American Dream' died when the wage gap began to grow and money found a way to influence politicians in the 1970's.
Money has always influenced American politics, all the way back to Washington/Adams/Jefferson/etc. The elite/politicians held financial ties to England, and other countries, with the colonies functioning, essentially, as companies by extension. one could venture out to say that the American Dream of the northern colonies was to exploit the southern colonies for as long as possible. owever, being dependent on the agricultural commodities, the northern colonies chose unwisely to not recognize this fact and continued to exploit/oppress the southern colonies until well.....we all know the rest of the story.
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
nooneman said: Maybe it never existed. Maybe it exists only as much as we believe that it exists. It's just an idea at the end of the day, and different people have different versions of what the idea means.
Can the average person realistically expect a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, a wife, a white picket fence, a job for life, and a good retirement in America today? Fuck no. But even back in the 50s, that kind of shit was actually really rare. Most people were still getting fucked just as hard as they're getting fucked today.
During the depression, they had posters and murals depicting the american dream literally directly above breadlines. Even while the average person was starving, homeless, and jobless at the peak of the great depression, this idea of the american dream was still being propagated.
It's always been just an idea, and that idea is what we make of it. To some people, the American dream is just about being able to achieve more than their parents. To others its about opening a business and becoming financially successful. Who are you or I to tell someone that their idea about the dream is wrong?
We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea. If you want to say that the American dream is living in an apartment and working your ass off 50+ hours a week at minimum wage, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? How would you even define "wrong" when you're talking about a subjective idea to begin with?
You're right, there's a lot of subjectivity to it, and it's not well defined. It could be different things to different people. I tend to think of it in the broadest sense as being about becoming rich and/or famous = being happy. Clearly, many people wouldn't agree with that. But I think a lot of people do, and I think that is a major factor in what keeps this carousel turning. When the punishments start to outweigh the rewards, things have a tendency to change. Not necessarily for the better.
Down to the detail, yes, each person's idea or interpretation of "the Dream" is different and their own. however, i think any non-hunting/gathering societal member has the same basic "Dream": 1) ample sustenance (food/water), clothing, and shelter, 2) a space to claim as their own, even if they don't hold title to it, and 3) some portion of time, daily/weekly/monthly, where they are "free" to choose how it is spent.
Quote:
LunarEclipse said: The demographics of home ownership in this country are horrible. Too many baby boomers needing to downsize at some point. Maybe they have a second retirement house and sell their main house. When their kids have to move out of the basement then, it will only add to the rental market. Most millenials are flat effing broke, in student loan debt, car debt, credit card debt. No way they are buying a house. .
IME, the cost of renting a house or apartment is often as much or more than what a house payment costs for the average person/house. The main factors keeping people from home ownership is either their own desire to not be tied down in one place for the long-term or credit lenders who deem someone as unable to make the inflated payments they are requiring.
Quote:
I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me.
you stated earlier you missed a payment on your house, meaning you have/had a mortgage. do you have health insurance? auto insurance? home insurance? do you buy any amount of your food, which is subsequently subsidized? i think you might 'need' society more than you want to admit, as all of those things are based on a large sampling of the population for you to obtain them and to obtain them at the comparatively inexpensive rates they might otherwise cost.
Quote:
Figures lie, and liars figure.

Quote:
klhouse said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
klhouse said: You ain't seen nothin' yet. ... this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
interesting video yup automation is a game changer also under reported is CRISPR which will also be a huge game changer before long https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CRISPR combined with global warming and recent politics, etc. things are about to get very hairy for the next generation
Well stated. Throw in radicalized religion and a growing movement of anti-intellectualism...
which radicalized religion? christianity? catholicism? islam? mormonism? scientology? all the above? anti-intellectualism isn't a movement, it's the norm known as the public (and often private)school system, including college/university. i was forced to attend a highly regarded, fundamentalist-christian school for 11 years; the "critical thinking" questions asked in all classes outside of sciences (which had christian under- and over-tones) were not actual critical thinking questions but emotion-based questions (ex. 'how did you feel'.....? or 'how would you react'; not logic-, step-based questions/solutions.) a people who can't connect 'a' to 'b' to 'c' to result in 'd' or 'e' are people less likely to stand in opposition to the desires of the authorities.
Quote:
XpandedMind said: Your statements and arguements thus far have been highly contradictory. Which suggests confusion on your part. Im finding this a bit counter productive so I am going to politely excuse myself from this conversation. I will leave you with a quote. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead.
you saying 'the collective' encompasses the whole, ALL participants of a system. Your quote actually proves the opposite of what you state. Small fractions of individuals are more likely to affect change, or as LE said, 'the more one moves with the herd the less things get done.' Herd and Collective are interchangable terms here. The only exception to this is when physical force against another's will is involved (i.e. militarily). As the Herd is broken up into smaller groups, more ideas spring forth. 50 individuals growing 50 different varieties of apples on 50 seperate acres, respectively, will result in a more colorful and flavorful fruit-set compared to 50 individuals all growing the same variety of apple on a contiguous 50 acre orchard; and due to pest issues on the contiguous 50 acres of one variety, the 50 individuals are more likely to have a higher overall yield.
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: demiu5]
#23897577 - 12/05/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Interesting post.
I believe Dr. Thompson never really defined it, but let the reader infer it. He wrote a lot about freedom and what it meant to him, among other things, that could suggest to the reader what his conception of it was. But I don't believe he ever actually spelled it out.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: demiu5]
#23897685 - 12/05/16 06:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually, I stated that I missed a property tax payment, not a mortgage payment. It wasn't for lack of money, but because the county sits back and waits for people to pay their taxes and why not? They can legally ream you on the penalty and interest, and if you don't cough up the money, eventually just take your property and auction it off.
The point I was making was that even being so called "free and clear" you still have property taxes. I could choose not to insure my property, but that seems a little bit stupid all things considered. It only takes once, and relative to the value of the property the insurance isn't too bad.
Now, compare this to Obamacare, and your thesis that insurance in numbers will lower costs. I don't think so, not for me at age 63. It's 800 bucks a month, with a copay and a big deductible. Once again, the risk of not having it likely outweighs the cost, but it's getting to be a toss up at that ridiculous rate. No, I don't smoke tobacco either. It's just a giant rip off and getting worse, this Obamacare disaster. It's one thing maybe Trump can do some positive with because it's hard to imagine it getting much worse.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon. I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.
What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"? Is it or was it real? Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?
one can only wish it was all a dream
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog] 1
#23899520 - 12/06/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Interesting video. The U.S. is a real friend of free, open and democratic societies in other parts of the world.
Not.
I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend. He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more. Interesting and totally pertinent stuff that never, ever gets talked about in any of the mainstream and even most of the non-mainstream media. The U.S. has a very shadowy history when one looks closely at it. For the U.S., The American Dream has never applied to countries outside of the U.S. Strategic maneuvering, war crimes, terrorism and base expediency have dictated our actions not only in foreign lands but in foreign lands with democracies and openness -- in some cases modeled on the U.S. Uncle Sam is one giant, violent, and sanctimonious hypocrite, without a doubt. Very dangerous in some ways.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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back when i had netflix i watched a documentary movie on the us invasion of panama it was too horrible for me to finish watching it
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23899596 - 12/06/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't doubt it.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend. He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more. ....
thanks - i just ordered the book
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23899683 - 12/06/16 11:40 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



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The buck rules the pack through violence and intimidation but the does only see the gentle loving. The Dream hasn't been free and the tab has been forced on others for too long.
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zzripz
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23900403 - 12/06/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend. He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more. ....
thanks - i just ordered the book
I was never ever into Chomsky, and only really found out about him post the 9/11 attacks.
I very much distrust him. To me he is a total charlatan because of his pathetically ignoreant and blatantly inadequate responses to the extremely important investigations of the JFK assassination and the 9/11 attacks.
It beggers belief that someone who claims to be an expert on propaganda can so easily dismiss one of the biggest global psy ops of the 21st century, or ever!...somethin' aint right with that! Forever known as Noam 'who cares?' Chomsky.
Edited by zzripz (12/06/16 04:18 PM)
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laughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: zzripz]
#23900499 - 12/06/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
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DividedQuantum said:
I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend. He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more. ....
thanks - i just ordered the book
I was never ever into Chomsky, and only really found out about him post the 9/11 attacks.
I very much distrust him. To me he is a total charlatan because ....
the topic under discussion was about the war crimes of US presidents - do you distrust this data? and who else is raising these points, organizing the data and presenting it?
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23901052 - 12/06/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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In my experience, Noam Chomsky is not only often difficult to read, due to his style, but a little difficult philosophically. His journalism is of unquestionable integrity, as everyone knows, but it is sort of adequated by the style of especially grinding on the empirical. He is a master-debator, and any sane reader knows the way he writes is partly an academic exercise of just amassing evidence, rather than leaning to err and conveying any more reflexive or notional argument. For instance his moral commitments are always implied, so he never speaks in a reflexive way on human nature, and human rights, enlightenment principles, or the violences we are all complicit to but historically thrown into as modern western people...etc. What is occurring in peoples, in their ethical positions, reflexively in the moment that reflects the world? For instance, why did the depth of a moderate left's response to a phenomenon like Donald Trump amount to sanctimoniously checking facts, and a purely obligatory political correctness back and forth in general?
Maybe the critique of American life is not that it is "wrong", or not a matter of facts and getting them straight and acting accordingly, and thinking that we should do better and be more informed electing politicians; it is acknowledging what we are born into, and thinking of and knowing what a response is. For instance, on the ultimate consumerism:
Chomsky on Zizek:
That Chomsky is partial to his own notions, and style of journalism, and is getting a point across to America, is not anything unreasonable, but quite good work on his own part, but I would just say he is a certain kind of critic. The way I figure, when I want to actually know what would go on in a something like a Bush or Clinton Administration, all the fine tuned political mechanisms of career politicians and American dynasties working in unison in the liberal institutions we conventionally lean on and criticize, Chomsky is great digger-througher of something like that. You can get those particulars, and the good old fashioned "truth", and be sure of what you say, and have it ready, for a sort of small dog going at the big dog (government) sort of representative dialogue.
But does Chomsky hold a realistic practical position in the fact based criticisms he makes? What is it? What is his idea? What is it he seems to be harping on, with the same point made again and again - to a point where he says all the presidents should be indicted...? Is that realistic? What "reforms" does he propose, if he is the conventional and pragmatic left, with that kind of notion?
That Chomsky gets to any real notion or picture of what is going on establishes any narrative through the unintelligible chaos, the arbitrary, and systematic violence that really is going on, is highly respectable. And maybe that is it. In his recent documentary on Netflix, I like that he said a lot of the same things as Bernie Sanders, and the 1% culture, with his own nuances. He basically gets things right narrative wise in eschewing conspiratorial thinking, while recognizing that power directs to a single point in a modern capitalistic west, within its system of disenfranchisement, or outwardly in systematic perpetrated violence, and that this is basically what is going on. Take a picture, and send a postcard of it or whatever. It is called American capitalism.
This is the same thing Bernie said, except without the focus on Government ethics in other countries. But I actually like Bernie Sanders better, because if philosophy were about action, and moderate reform I think getting things working on a just basis within a domestic sphere, would tend to deflate the concern about foreign affairs. It is just like if it were being human. You get your shit straight and eat healthy, get up and work, and the world goes on pretty well. If there is a story to that lumbering machine, which is the American government, it has probably been happening again and again, since the second half of the 20th century, and Chomsky will give the facts, and that is a good thing, but I think it is fair to say not the only thing to think about.
Edited by Kurt (12/06/16 07:30 PM)
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laughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Kurt]
#23901212 - 12/06/16 08:00 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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pardon me but Zizek should have to watch is own video. i couldn't take it anymore after he had touched & played with his nose about 100 times after only 1:19 min. and he is supposed to be conscious? He is making the video, he could stop the camera and get a handkerchief or kleenex if he had the least bit of awareness.
Anyway I read your long post and got that you like Bernie better than Chomsky. I got that you find Chomsky dry and somehow he doesn't live up to your expectations. I got that as you like philosophizing, you like Zizek better than Chomsky.
I read a fiction book by John le Carré, a former spy, himself I think , and it gave me a better understanding of how the world actually works at a certain level. Then we have Edward Snowden, and Wiki leaks -- no one source can accurately present all the levels of deception and corruption always going on. Not Bernie , Chomsky, or Ralph Nader, or anyone. And there is no simple remedy any of them could apply on a grand scale that would work. Things as simple as racial prejudice have persisted in the USA for over 200 years, and are about to get worse once again. I think Snowden, wiki leaks, le Carré, Chomsky, Ralph Nader, & Daniel Ellsberg are all sources of data that is more useful than philosophy when it comes to both knowing what is actually going on, understanding it and getting clues as to what action if any might be appropriate .
That Chomsky makes a point that both parties are guilty of major war crimes, and have been engaging in them for decades, as a part of working policy, is something Bernie did not do, and may be valuable in a country as polarized as the USA is now; but perhaps it is only "preaching to the choir". Anyway Bernie is a politician and Chomsky a professor so no direct comparison between the two, seems really valid, to me.
Edited by laughingdog (12/06/16 08:16 PM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23901230 - 12/06/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23901306 - 12/06/16 08:32 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: back when i had netflix i watched a documentary movie on the us invasion of panama it was too horrible for me to finish watching it
do they have a documentary about the U.S. invention of Panama?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama
Quote:
With the backing of the United States, Panama seceded from Colombia in 1903, allowing the Panama Canal to be built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers between 1904 and 1914.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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laughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa]
#23901383 - 12/06/16 08:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
laughingdog said: back when i had netflix i watched a documentary movie on the us invasion of panama it was too horrible for me to finish watching it
do they have a documentary about the U.S. invention of Panama?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama
Quote:
With the backing of the United States, Panama seceded from Colombia in 1903, allowing the Panama Canal to be built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers between 1904 and 1914.
exactly as you quoted yourself " back when i had netflix "
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23901724 - 12/06/16 10:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wasn't really asking anyway.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23901753 - 12/06/16 10:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey Laughingdog, what I wrote was a general response to the thread about Noam Chomsky and I didn't mean for you to "get" anything. You are also attributing positions to me I didn't argue. I'd say above I have less of a "preference" for or against Chomsky, and more a small criticism.
As to your argument, I'd say it is easy to compare Bernie Sanders and Noam Chomsky on formal criteria, in what they have said, speaking to the notion I mentioned, of a critique of domestic socio-economical policy. They both speak extensively to the wealth inequality in America; the fact of "one percent" demographic of America, holds 90 percent of the wealth. It is true that Noam Chomsky's focus has been traditionally on the US's involvement in the world, in foreign countries, and Bernie Sanders did not speak or campaign at all, on those issues, but that clearly doesn't mean in terms of specific ideas, like domestic society and economics they are completely different on all points. It seems like you are comparing academic titles to political experience, and saying this must make two people and what they say completely different ad initio.
On philosophers:
As far as I see it, it is the way things are that our society and our liberal institutions exist by principles of essentially philosophical dialogues. This dialogue is on our social contract theory, on human nature and human rights, and essential standards of shared human ethics. While it is difficult to practically reduce a contentious political issue to basic philosophical principles, they are there, and when people stand for their incommensurable political views, and when they perhaps hold any moral principle in contempt, what they oppose is exactly analogous to what the philosopher opposes in naivety, only expressed differently. But I would rest in that with any politics, anywhere on the spectrum, we all know that, at least as the solidity and foundation of these platforms we express ourselves upon, somewhat freely, (and in a way we may take for granted) we rely on certain principles.
All I meant in my previous post, concerning Noam, or in regards to social philosophers in general, is that sometimes a person speaks to the notion, or principle, and sometimes a person speaks to a fact which implies their points.
You say you look for something other than philosophy to be informed, and that makes perfect sense to me, so we have no bones of contention there. A principle or discussion and dialogue (philosophy) would ideally not to be confused with a source of news or information, or facts as they present themselves. That would be ideology. But so the way I see it; likewise, why look for a presentation of information, as a basis to act, or represent oneself, other than in just being informed? It seems to me that a presentation of fact, journalism, is supposed to let us not only be informed, but discuss the issues and act and represent ourselves on our principles which we find important. I don't preference either fact or principle; they are both crucial.
It is just making generalizations to say a social philosopher and intellectual, is going to be a little different than a social philosopher and senator. What is said expressed in ideas, not mannerisms, is what is important. Definitely, the post-marxist theorist who can't stop itching his nose, is also going to be different than the anarcho-capitalist (like Chomsky). To me they are just different, probably in a lot of ways; not better or worse.
Anyway I believe it is possible to express criticisms of something or someone's work that you still otherwise appreciate in other ways. I like Chomsky alot in what little bits I have read of his latest book, and maybe I'll try to dig further into it in fact, since I put this much effort into response. I do find the long laundry list of US foreign policy fuck ups, and generally perpetrated violence, to be farther from the concern of American people than domestic issues of social and economic class. While that is my opinion, I am glad someone like Chomsky is covering these things too.
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laughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Kurt] 1
#23901928 - 12/06/16 11:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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thank you for your detailed response. I understand your views better now.
as regards "As far as I see it, it is the way things are that our society and our liberal institutions exist by principles of essentially philosophical dialogues. " I agree that in principle, the constitution and bill of rights were set up by men with such high ideals.
That one or some, of the founders, had slaves is a well known embarrassing fact, as is the fact women weren't given proper rights, and obviously as a consequence of having slaves, and having friends and constituents who had them, blacks weren't given their proper rights - so it was more than embarrassing - it was a huge moral failure right from the beginning - a failure of principles right from the beginning.
I brought Chomsky into the discussion of the "American Dream" as he came to mind as someone who had documented the vacuity of said 'Dream' as it showed it was based on violence to those far away, on an unimaginably horrible and underreported scale.
I watched some videos on Chomsky and am no expert on his views. I am uncertain of his views on Israel. Perhaps I am the one who has swallowed the American medias' views on this.
Earlier in the thread I posted about consumerism and the invention of 'propaganda' also later know as 'public relations' and invented by Edward Bernays. (see: Edward Bernays' 'Propaganda' Deconstructed (Full 10 Hour Series) if interested, it is on youtube along with much other data). As part of consumerism both advertising and television were used to influence and mold the public mind at large for financial gain (as opposed to the real good of all) by the corporations & wealthy & powerful classes, showing again total failure of any worthwhile ideals. Again my intention in bringing this up was to show the hollowness of the 'American dream' and by extension I suppose the slogan: 'make america great again'. And to show that the roots of the failure of this society began long before the take over by corporations and lobbyists. Edward Bernays was born in 1891 .
This important history of consumerism (not just Bernays) and the attempt to control the masses for the benefit of the wealthy and powerful, that as we know has continued thru the actions of corporations and lobbyists, and the laws government has made to favor them, begins to build a case for a continuos ignoring of the ideal philosophical dialogues one would expect of truly liberal institutions
I consider American Society to be hypocritical and corrupt to the core. Hence recent events cannot be shocking. What is, is. Things have causes. And the roots in this case were corrupt from the start. I suspect the American Indians (& many other minorities) might have a view similar to mine.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23901968 - 12/07/16 12:05 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Its true enough what you few allude to. Hypothetically what would it take to reform or transform such a system and replace it with something along the lines of what might be called Good and Sustainable and Fairly compassionate, with long term goals for the species in the overall schema - something that sits right in the hearts and minds of mankind. How to do this without blindly falling into other trappings like leaving a vacuum for the next cult of power to fill in the void is beyond me.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Brian Jones
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#23902173 - 12/07/16 03:24 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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"The American Dream" has always depended mainly on what part of the boom or bust cycle we were in. The problem is that the masses used to benefit from the boom cycle. Now, for decades, the disparity in income/wealth only seems to get bigger regardless of what part of the business cycle we are in. Their was some fluctuation in this with JFK, Johnson, Reagan IDK, and Clinton. But with ever increasing disparity, the only one who redistributed wealth was FDR (And of course the conservatives think he was a communist, and in a small sense, I guess he was.) The conservatives would have us believe that anyone who is not doing great, has been getting progressively lazier and lazier and lazier for the last 30 years even if they are working 40-65 hours a week. If you don't have money now, you are fucked and it ain't goin to get better.
As far as Hunter S. Thompson, I read everything he wrote in the 70's. He's interesting, but other than being a perpetual hard drug user (which makes him a god like hero on the Shroomery), he is a semi-comedy writer like Tom Robbins. I don't like conservatives, and Thom Wolfe is kind of a conservative, but he is twice as good of a writer as Thompson.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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zzripz
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23902216 - 12/07/16 04:29 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
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DividedQuantum said:
I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend. He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more. ....
thanks - i just ordered the book
I was never ever into Chomsky, and only really found out about him post the 9/11 attacks.
I very much distrust him. To me he is a total charlatan because ....
the topic under discussion was about the war crimes of US presidents - do you distrust this data? and who else is raising these points, organizing the data and presenting it?
who else? Far more integral people than this deceptive person who is COMPLICIT in war crimes of US presidents, and Zionists.
This guy tells it like it is about grampa Chomsky! He wrote him a letter:
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Brian Jones]
#23902636 - 12/07/16 09:09 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: "The American Dream" has always depended mainly on what part of the boom or bust cycle we were in. The problem is that the masses used to benefit from the boom cycle. Now, for decades, the disparity in income/wealth only seems to get bigger regardless of what part of the business cycle we are in. Their was some fluctuation in this with JFK, Johnson, Reagan IDK, and Clinton. But with ever increasing disparity, the only one who redistributed wealth was FDR (And of course the conservatives think he was a communist, and in a small sense, I guess he was.) The conservatives would have us believe that anyone who is not doing great, has been getting progressively lazier and lazier and lazier for the last 30 years even if they are working 40-65 hours a week. If you don't have money now, you are fucked and it ain't goin to get better.
As far as Hunter S. Thompson, I read everything he wrote in the 70's. He's interesting, but other than being a perpetual hard drug user (which makes him a god like hero on the Shroomery), he is a semi-comedy writer like Tom Robbins. I don't like conservatives, and Thom Wolfe is kind of a conservative, but he is twice as good of a writer as Thompson.
Very well said. I think your assessment that the majority of people do not fare appreciably differently whether in a boom or a bust cycle is quite correct; the only ones who stand to benefit from bull markets are the rich. It's true that if you don't have much money now, it will very probably remain that way.
And Tom Wolfe probably is a better writer than Thompson, but there's no denying that Hunter is more fun.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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demiu5
humans, lol


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Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23903565 - 12/07/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: Actually, I stated that I missed a property tax payment, not a mortgage payment. It wasn't for lack of money, but because the county sits back and waits for people to pay their taxes and why not? They can legally ream you on the penalty and interest, and if you don't cough up the money, eventually just take your property and auction it off.
The point I was making was that even being so called "free and clear" you still have property taxes. I could choose not to insure my property, but that seems a little bit stupid all things considered. It only takes once, and relative to the value of the property the insurance isn't too bad.
Now, compare this to Obamacare, and your thesis that insurance in numbers will lower costs. I don't think so, not for me at age 63. It's 800 bucks a month, with a copay and a big deductible. Once again, the risk of not having it likely outweighs the cost, but it's getting to be a toss up at that ridiculous rate. No, I don't smoke tobacco either. It's just a giant rip off and getting worse, this Obamacare disaster. It's one thing maybe Trump can do some positive with because it's hard to imagine it getting much worse.
My mistake. i apologize for mis-reading. Unfortunately, the whole basis of grouped health insurance policies (which, to my knowledge is all health insurance) is what keeps the cost "down" to what it is, which is the same for auto insurance. Granted that one's own insurance rate can be affected by one's actions, most often negative, but occasionally positive.
i also agree that America's new and current national health system is a debacle. while not opposed to national, socialized health care in and of itself, i'm also not a supporter, for a variety of reasons. imo, the worst aspect of the affordable care act, which i fell victim to the first year it was instilled, is that one is taxed (or fined, however you want to look at it) for NOT having it. that's like requiring everyone to have auto insurance whether or not they own/drive a vehicle, or having to purchase insurance to ride a public transit system (which is suppose is likely figured into the total cost of an individual's use of public transit)
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: demiu5]
#23906020 - 12/08/16 08:05 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
demiu5 said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said: Actually, I stated that I missed a property tax payment, not a mortgage payment. It wasn't for lack of money, but because the county sits back and waits for people to pay their taxes and why not? They can legally ream you on the penalty and interest, and if you don't cough up the money, eventually just take your property and auction it off.
The point I was making was that even being so called "free and clear" you still have property taxes. I could choose not to insure my property, but that seems a little bit stupid all things considered. It only takes once, and relative to the value of the property the insurance isn't too bad.
Now, compare this to Obamacare, and your thesis that insurance in numbers will lower costs. I don't think so, not for me at age 63. It's 800 bucks a month, with a copay and a big deductible. Once again, the risk of not having it likely outweighs the cost, but it's getting to be a toss up at that ridiculous rate. No, I don't smoke tobacco either. It's just a giant rip off and getting worse, this Obamacare disaster. It's one thing maybe Trump can do some positive with because it's hard to imagine it getting much worse.
My mistake. i apologize for mis-reading. Unfortunately, the whole basis of grouped health insurance policies (which, to my knowledge is all health insurance) is what keeps the cost "down" to what it is, which is the same for auto insurance. Granted that one's own insurance rate can be affected by one's actions, most often negative, but occasionally positive.
i also agree that America's new and current national health system is a debacle. while not opposed to national, socialized health care in and of itself, i'm also not a supporter, for a variety of reasons. imo, the worst aspect of the affordable care act, which i fell victim to the first year it was instilled, is that one is taxed (or fined, however you want to look at it) for NOT having it. that's like requiring everyone to have auto insurance whether or not they own/drive a vehicle, or having to purchase insurance to ride a public transit system (which is suppose is likely figured into the total cost of an individual's use of public transit)
The health "care" industry is a mess for other reasons too. This whole shoot them up mentality is just amazing. Don't worry, I set them straight when it comes to their bullshit of giving me "booster" vaccines to fight against possible diptheria, tetanus (the dreaded "lockjaw") and OMG "whooping cough" that just sounds bad. I mean sure whoop it up, but it still just sounds bad.
The last so called not even a doctor chick that was actually pretty smart knew that aluminum is non-toxic and obviously to associate the shots containing aluminum given to newborns with their eventual autism is simply ridiculous. She knew enough to know that the doctor who dared question aluminum being a "friendly" metal who got blackballed for it was "obviously a fraud". Then she wants to dose me up with her booster shot of death containing yet more aluminum mercury and god knows what to "strengthen" my immune system at age 63.
Fuck you, dumb bitch, was what I basically advised her, while giving a real reference to the contamination causing cancer from all those polio shots laced with live monkey viruses way back when. Maurice Hilleman interview, not shown, was pretty damning and pretty damn revealing. Honesty in a scientist is squashed pretty quickly, that's for sure.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (12/08/16 08:11 AM)
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