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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
    #23897467 - 12/05/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon.  I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.

What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"?  Is it or was it real?  Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?






Not being a huge fan of Thompson's works (although I am a fan of how he chose to live his life, despite those he may have hurt along the way), i'm not familiar with his definition of "The American Dream."


If in fact he does clearly define this, would you mind posting his definition as a general reference and to clarify your OP?  Thanks



Every person lives in a land of opportunity.  It all depends on how they perceive the conditions they live in, in conjunction with their own independent/personal goals.  Certainly, some localities/municipalities/governments are more oppressive than others, but that doesn't mean there isn't a way for one to do what they want; it does mean the cost of being exposed as such varies.



my idea of the "American Dream" is not having any external authority controlling or influencing, in any way, any aspect of my life.  however, this is not possible.  even if i didn't drive, or didn't earn an income, there are still people, externally, who are polluting the air and water i ingest.  since this is not possible, i choose not to believe in my own idea(l) "Dream" but do the best i can with what i have, making choices that minimizes my impact on the land and other organisms as much as possible.  that being said, i drive a truck, i run a chain saw, and unfortunately this year will be buying much of my food (as opposed to years passed where i or myself and a few others grew the majority if not all of our food.)



the "Dream", like many idea(l)s, is best left maleable as opposed to rigid.  nothing in this experience is static besides death. 



Quote:

Khancious said:
Although I do admire those that live "off-grid",
and in harmony with nature with no dependency on
anything but the environment.






very, very few, especially in any first- or second- world country, despite living "off-grid" are completely self-sustaining.  very few people have the means to forge the basic tools needed for even small-scale agriculture.  very few are able to use native soil to raise starts, and thus are dependent on commercial "potting 'soil'" to even begin raising food.  most have to purchase scion-wood from commercial facilities which are often tied in a number of ways to "the system."  And so on and so forth.  do you wear glasses?  do you brush your teeth?  maybe you don't brush, but you oil pull/rinse.  okay.  and on and on and on and on and on.




Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hugely interesting.  "Happiness was just one possession away."  Really sick stuff.  Unfortunately, it's the reality for probably well over a hundred million American citizens. One of the speakers in the video described 'relative deprivation' as a major psychological component of the American psyche.  He was describing people who feel that $5 or $10 million is not enough, and don't even think of themselves as rich if that's what they've got.

We live in an utterly twisted society.






5-10 million dollars is nothing when one is fully vested.  one's worth may be 5-10 million, but is irrelevant if one's debts (oddly, credit in this sense may be a form of debt) is also 5-10 million.  i personally know lots of people who may seem "rich" monetarily or in possessions, but they are either even or over their heads with what they owe compared to what they have.
their "richness" often stems from, as khancious touches on, that they aren't enslaved by anyone.  they choose how to spend their time.  i'm almost 30 and consider myself retired, even though i'm generally dangling above being broke, because i spend my time doing what i want.  fortunately, what i want to do is a way for me to make a living.  if i don't want to work a specific job that day, i don't.  what i do for a living, i also do for pleasure at my own place (note, i don't "OWN" or hold any title to my place, 120 acres total, with an active area of about 3-5 acres and 115-117 acres of playground, but i have been given liberty by the owner to do as i wish.)



Quote:

Ultimately, the engine fueling this whole debacle is the fabrication of wants, and you've laid out some very exact evidence in this thread for precisely that.  There's been nothing like it in the history of the world; this shit makes Rome look like a monastery.






i disagree.  i'm not 100% certain, but i believe it was the Aztecs who farmed themselves out of existence.  more specifically, they monocropped themselves out of existence.  they went from a culture of plenty to a culture of excess to a non-existent culture which then dispersed across the land.  they completely degraded the health of the soil, leading to mass erosion, all in the name of what we would call "profit."  through trade, they obtained non-vital possessions, metals for tools, metals for ornaments, cloth for clothing beyond what they needed.  wealth and status are the two driving factors for one to produce beyond what one needs for sustenance.  the "law of supply and demand" is not a natural law.  it is one of a culture that has exceeded their base needs and still isn't satisfied.






Quote:

sudly said:
The 'American Dream' died when the wage gap began to grow and money found a way to influence politicians in the 1970's.





Money has always influenced American politics, all the way back to Washington/Adams/Jefferson/etc.  The elite/politicians held financial ties to England, and other countries, with the colonies functioning, essentially, as companies by extension.  one could venture out to say that the American Dream of the northern colonies was to exploit the southern colonies for as long as possible.  owever, being dependent on the agricultural commodities, the northern colonies chose unwisely to not recognize this fact and continued to exploit/oppress the southern colonies until well.....we all know the rest of the story.






Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
Maybe it never existed. Maybe it exists only as much as we believe that it exists. It's just an idea at the end of the day, and different people have different versions of what the idea means.

Can the average person realistically expect a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, a wife, a white picket fence, a job for life, and a good retirement in America today? Fuck no. But even back in the 50s, that kind of shit was actually really rare. Most people were still getting fucked just as hard as they're getting fucked today.

During the depression, they had posters and murals depicting the american dream literally directly above breadlines. Even while the average person was starving, homeless, and jobless at the peak of the great depression, this idea of the american dream was still being propagated.

It's always been just an idea, and that idea is what we make of it. To some people, the American dream is just about being able to achieve more than their parents. To others its about opening a business and becoming financially successful. Who are you or I to tell someone that their idea about the dream is wrong?

We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea. If you want to say that the American dream is living in an apartment and working your ass off 50+ hours a week at minimum wage, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? How would you even define "wrong" when you're talking about a subjective idea to begin with?




You're right, there's a lot of subjectivity to it, and it's not well defined.  It could be different things to different people.  I tend to think of it in the broadest sense as being about becoming rich and/or famous = being happy.  Clearly, many people wouldn't agree with that.  But I think a lot of people do, and I think that is a major factor in what keeps this carousel turning.  When the punishments start to outweigh the rewards, things have a tendency to change.  Not necessarily for the better.






Down to the detail, yes, each person's idea or interpretation of "the Dream" is different and their own.  however, i think any non-hunting/gathering societal member has the same basic "Dream": 1) ample sustenance (food/water), clothing, and shelter, 2) a space to claim as their own, even if they don't hold title to it, and 3) some portion of time, daily/weekly/monthly, where they are "free" to choose how it is spent. 





Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
The demographics of home ownership in this country are horrible.  Too many baby boomers needing to downsize at some point.  Maybe they have a second retirement house and sell their main house.  When their kids have to move out of the basement then, it will only add to the rental market.  Most millenials are flat effing broke, in student loan debt, car debt, credit card debt.  No way they are buying a house.
.





IME, the cost of renting a house or apartment is often as much or more than what a house payment costs for the average person/house.  The main factors keeping people from home ownership is either their own desire to not be tied down in one place for the long-term or credit lenders who deem someone as unable to make the inflated payments they are requiring.


Quote:

I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me.





you stated earlier you missed a payment on your house, meaning you have/had a mortgage.  do you have health insurance?  auto insurance?  home insurance?  do you buy any amount of your food, which is subsequently subsidized?  i think you might 'need' society more than you want to admit, as all of those things are based on a large sampling of the population for you to obtain them and to obtain them at the comparatively inexpensive rates they might otherwise cost. 



Quote:

Figures lie, and liars figure.



:yesnod:






Quote:

klhouse said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

klhouse said:
You ain't seen nothin' yet.
...  this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.




interesting video
yup automation is a game changer
also under reported is CRISPR which
will also be a huge game changer before long
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CRISPR
combined with global warming and recent politics, etc.
things are about to get very hairy for the next generation



Well stated. Throw in radicalized religion and a growing movement of anti-intellectualism...






which radicalized religion?  christianity?  catholicism?  islam? mormonism?  scientology? all the above? anti-intellectualism isn't a movement, it's the norm known as the public (and often private)school system, including college/university.  i was forced to attend a highly regarded, fundamentalist-christian school for 11 years; the "critical thinking" questions asked in all classes outside of sciences (which had christian under- and over-tones) were not actual critical thinking questions but emotion-based questions (ex. 'how did you feel'.....? or 'how would you react'; not logic-, step-based questions/solutions.) a people who can't connect 'a' to 'b' to 'c' to result in 'd' or 'e' are people less likely to stand in opposition to the desires of the authorities.





Quote:

XpandedMind said:
Your statements and arguements thus far have been highly contradictory. Which suggests confusion on your part. Im finding this a bit counter productive so I am going to politely excuse myself from this conversation. I will leave you with a quote. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead.






you saying 'the collective' encompasses the whole, ALL participants of a system.  Your quote actually proves the opposite of what you state.  Small fractions of individuals are more likely to affect change, or as LE said, 'the more one moves with the herd the less things get done.'  Herd and Collective are interchangable terms here.  The only exception to this is when physical force against another's will is involved (i.e. militarily).  As the Herd is broken up into smaller groups, more ideas spring forth.  50 individuals growing 50 different varieties of apples on 50 seperate acres, respectively, will result in a more colorful and flavorful fruit-set compared to 50 individuals all growing the same variety of apple on a contiguous 50 acre orchard; and due to pest issues on the contiguous 50 acres of one variety, the 50 individuals are more likely to have a higher overall yield.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: demiu5]
    #23897577 - 12/05/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting post.

I believe Dr. Thompson never really defined it, but let the reader infer it.  He wrote a lot about freedom and what it meant to him, among other things, that could suggest to the reader what his conception of it was.  But I don't believe he ever actually spelled it out.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: demiu5]
    #23897685 - 12/05/16 06:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, I stated that I missed a property tax payment, not a mortgage payment.  It wasn't for lack of money, but because the county sits back and waits for people to pay their taxes and why not?  They can legally ream you on the penalty and interest, and if you don't cough up the money, eventually just take your property and auction it off. 

The point I was making was that even being so called "free and clear" you still have property taxes.  I could choose not to insure my property, but that seems a little bit stupid all things considered.  It only takes once, and relative to the value of the property the insurance isn't too bad.

Now, compare this to Obamacare, and your thesis that insurance in numbers will lower costs.  I don't think so, not for me at age 63.  It's 800 bucks a month, with a copay and a big deductible.  Once again, the risk of not having it likely outweighs the cost, but it's getting to be a toss up at that ridiculous rate.  No, I don't smoke tobacco either.  It's just a giant rip off and getting worse, this Obamacare disaster. It's one thing maybe Trump can do some positive with because it's hard to imagine it getting much worse.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23898436 - 12/05/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon.  I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.

What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"?  Is it or was it real?  Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?




one can only wish it was all a dream



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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23899520 - 12/06/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting video.  The U.S. is a real friend of free, open and democratic societies in other parts of the world.

Not.

I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend.  He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more.  Interesting and totally pertinent stuff that never, ever gets talked about in any of the mainstream and even most of the non-mainstream media.  The U.S. has a very shadowy history when one looks closely at it.  For the U.S., The American Dream has never applied to countries outside of the U.S.  Strategic maneuvering, war crimes, terrorism and base expediency have dictated our actions not only in foreign lands but in foreign lands with democracies and openness -- in some cases modeled on the U.S.  Uncle Sam is one giant, violent, and sanctimonious hypocrite, without a doubt.  Very dangerous in some ways.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23899582 - 12/06/16 11:01 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

back when i had netflix
i watched a documentary movie on the us invasion of panama
it was too horrible for me to finish watching it


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23899596 - 12/06/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I don't doubt it.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23899610 - 12/06/16 11:16 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend.  He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more.  ....





thanks - i just ordered the book


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23899683 - 12/06/16 11:40 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23900366 - 12/06/16 04:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The buck rules the pack through violence and intimidation  but the does only see the gentle loving.
The Dream hasn't been free and the tab has been forced on others for too long.


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23900403 - 12/06/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend.  He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more.  ....





thanks - i just ordered the book




I was never ever into Chomsky, and only really found out about him post the 9/11 attacks.

I very much distrust him. To me he is a total charlatan because of his pathetically ignoreant and blatantly inadequate responses to the extremely important investigations of the JFK assassination and the 9/11 attacks.

It beggers belief that someone who claims to be an expert on propaganda can so easily dismiss one of the biggest global psy ops of the 21st century, or ever!...somethin' aint right with that! Forever known as Noam 'who cares?' Chomsky.





Edited by zzripz (12/06/16 04:18 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: zzripz]
    #23900499 - 12/06/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

I read Chomsky's recent book Who Rules the World, which I recommend.  He goes into vivid detail about everything in the video and more.  ....





thanks - i just ordered the book




I was never ever into Chomsky, and only really found out about him post the 9/11 attacks.

I very much distrust him. To me he is a total charlatan because ....




the topic under discussion was about the war crimes of US presidents - do you distrust this data?
and who else is raising these points, organizing the data and presenting it?


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23901052 - 12/06/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

In my experience, Noam Chomsky is not only often difficult to read, due to his style, but a little difficult philosophically. His journalism is of unquestionable integrity, as everyone knows, but it is sort of adequated by the style of especially grinding on the empirical. He is a master-debator, and any sane reader knows the way he writes is partly an academic exercise of just amassing evidence, rather than leaning to err and conveying any more reflexive or notional argument. For instance his moral commitments are always implied, so he never speaks in a reflexive way on human nature, and human rights, enlightenment principles, or the violences we are all complicit to but historically thrown into as modern western people...etc. What is occurring in peoples, in their ethical positions, reflexively in the moment that reflects the world? For instance, why did the depth of a moderate left's response to a phenomenon like Donald Trump amount to sanctimoniously checking facts, and a purely obligatory political correctness back and forth in general?

Maybe the critique of American life is not that it is "wrong", or not a matter of facts and getting them straight and acting accordingly, and thinking that we should do better and be more informed electing politicians; it is acknowledging what we are born into, and thinking of and knowing what a response is. For instance, on the ultimate consumerism:




Chomsky on Zizek:



That Chomsky is partial to his own notions, and style of journalism, and is getting a point across to America, is not anything unreasonable, but quite good work on his own part, but I would just say he is a certain kind of critic. The way I figure, when I want to actually know what would go on in a something like a Bush or Clinton Administration, all the fine tuned political mechanisms of career politicians and American dynasties working in unison in the liberal institutions we conventionally lean on and criticize, Chomsky is great digger-througher of something like that. You can get those particulars, and the good old fashioned "truth", and be sure of what you say, and have it ready, for a sort of small dog going at the big dog (government) sort of representative dialogue.

But does Chomsky hold a realistic practical position in the fact based criticisms he makes? What is it? What is his idea? What is it he seems to be harping on, with the same point made again and again - to a point where he says all the presidents should be indicted...? Is that realistic? What "reforms" does he propose, if he is the conventional and pragmatic left, with that kind of notion?

That Chomsky gets to any real notion or picture of what is going on establishes any narrative through the unintelligible chaos, the arbitrary, and systematic violence that really is going on, is highly respectable. And maybe that is it. In his recent documentary on Netflix, I like that he said a lot of the same things as Bernie Sanders, and the 1% culture, with his own nuances. He basically gets things right narrative wise in eschewing conspiratorial thinking, while recognizing that power directs to a single point in a modern capitalistic west, within its system of disenfranchisement, or outwardly in systematic perpetrated violence, and that this is basically what is going on. Take a picture, and send a postcard of it or whatever. It is called American capitalism.

This is the same thing Bernie said, except without the focus on Government ethics in other countries. But I actually like Bernie Sanders better, because if philosophy were about action, and moderate reform I think getting things working on a just basis within a domestic sphere, would tend to deflate the concern about foreign affairs. It is just like if it were being human. You get your shit straight and eat healthy, get up and work, and the world goes on pretty well. If there is a story to that lumbering machine, which is the American government, it has probably been happening again and again, since the second half of the 20th century, and Chomsky will give the facts, and that is a good thing, but I think it is fair to say not the only thing to think about.


Edited by Kurt (12/06/16 07:30 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Kurt]
    #23901212 - 12/06/16 08:00 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

pardon me but Zizek should have to watch is own video.
i couldn't take it anymore after he had touched & played with his nose about 100 times after only 1:19 min. and he is supposed to be conscious? He is making the video, he could stop the camera and get a handkerchief or kleenex if he had the least bit of awareness.

Anyway I read  your long post and got that you like Bernie better than Chomsky. I got that you find Chomsky dry and somehow he doesn't live up to your expectations. I got that as you like philosophizing, you like Zizek better than Chomsky.

I read a fiction book by John le Carré, a former spy, himself I think , and it gave me a better understanding of how the world actually works at a certain level. Then we have Edward Snowden, and Wiki leaks -- no one source can accurately present all the levels of deception and corruption always going on. Not Bernie , Chomsky, or Ralph Nader, or anyone. And there is no simple remedy any of them could apply on a grand scale that would work. Things as simple as racial prejudice have persisted in the USA for over 200 years, and are about to get worse once again.
I think Snowden, wiki leaks,  le CarrĂ©, Chomsky,  Ralph Nader, & Daniel Ellsberg are all sources of data that is more useful than philosophy when it comes to both knowing what is actually going on, understanding it and getting clues as to what action if any might be appropriate .

That Chomsky makes a point that both parties are guilty of major war crimes, and have been engaging in them for decades, as a part of working policy, is something Bernie did not do, and may be valuable in a country as polarized as the USA is now; but perhaps it is only "preaching to the choir". Anyway Bernie is a politician and Chomsky a professor so no direct comparison between the two, seems really valid, to me.



Edited by laughingdog (12/06/16 08:16 PM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23901230 - 12/06/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

It Better End Soon



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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23901306 - 12/06/16 08:32 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
back when i had netflix
i watched a documentary movie on the us invasion of panama
it was too horrible for me to finish watching it




do they have a documentary about the U.S. invention of Panama?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama
Quote:

With the backing of the United States, Panama seceded from Colombia in 1903, allowing the Panama Canal to be built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers between 1904 and 1914.




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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23901383 - 12/06/16 08:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
back when i had netflix
i watched a documentary movie on the us invasion of panama
it was too horrible for me to finish watching it




do they have a documentary about the U.S. invention of Panama?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama
Quote:

With the backing of the United States, Panama seceded from Colombia in 1903, allowing the Panama Canal to be built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers between 1904 and 1914.







exactly as you quoted yourself
" back when i had netflix "


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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23901724 - 12/06/16 10:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't really asking anyway.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23901753 - 12/06/16 10:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Laughingdog, what I wrote was a general response to the thread about Noam Chomsky and I didn't mean for you to "get" anything. You are also attributing positions to me I didn't argue. I'd say above I have less of a "preference" for or against Chomsky, and more a small criticism.

As to your argument, I'd say it is easy to compare Bernie Sanders and Noam Chomsky on formal criteria, in what they have said, speaking to the notion I mentioned, of a critique of domestic socio-economical policy. They both speak extensively to the wealth inequality in America; the fact of "one percent" demographic of America, holds 90 percent of the wealth. It is true that Noam Chomsky's focus has been traditionally on the US's involvement in the world, in foreign countries, and Bernie Sanders did not speak or campaign at all, on those issues, but that clearly doesn't mean in terms of specific ideas, like domestic society and economics they are completely different on all points. It seems like you are comparing academic titles to political experience, and saying this must make two people and what they say completely different ad initio.

On philosophers:

As far as I see it, it is the way things are that our society and our liberal institutions exist by principles of essentially philosophical dialogues. This dialogue is on our social contract theory, on human nature and human rights, and essential standards of shared human ethics. While it is difficult to practically reduce a contentious political issue to basic philosophical principles, they are there, and when people stand for their incommensurable political views, and when they perhaps hold any moral principle in contempt, what they oppose is exactly analogous to what the philosopher opposes in naivety, only expressed differently. But I would rest in that with any politics, anywhere on the spectrum, we all know that, at least as the solidity and foundation of these platforms we express ourselves upon, somewhat freely, (and in a way we may take for granted) we rely on certain principles.

All I meant in my previous post, concerning Noam, or in regards to social philosophers in general, is that sometimes a person speaks to the notion, or principle, and sometimes a person speaks to a fact which implies their points.

You say you look for something other than philosophy to be informed, and that makes perfect sense to me, so we have no bones of contention there. A principle or discussion and dialogue (philosophy) would ideally not to be confused with a source of news or information, or facts as they present themselves. That would be ideology. But so the way I see it; likewise, why look for a presentation of information, as a basis to act, or represent oneself, other than in just being informed? It seems to me that a presentation of fact, journalism, is supposed to let us not only be informed, but discuss the issues and act and represent ourselves on our principles which we find important. I don't preference either fact or principle; they are both crucial.

It is just making generalizations to say a social philosopher and intellectual, is going to be a little different than a social philosopher and senator. What is said expressed in ideas, not mannerisms, is what is important. Definitely, the post-marxist theorist who can't stop itching his nose, is also going to be different than the anarcho-capitalist (like Chomsky). To me they are just different, probably in a lot of ways; not better or worse.

Anyway I believe it is possible to express criticisms of something or someone's work that you still otherwise appreciate in other ways. I like Chomsky alot in what little bits I have read of his latest book, and maybe I'll try to dig further into it in fact, since I put this much effort into response. I do find the long laundry list of US foreign policy fuck ups, and generally perpetrated violence, to be farther from the concern of American people than domestic issues of social and economic class. While that is my opinion, I am glad someone like Chomsky is covering these things too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #23901928 - 12/06/16 11:50 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

thank you for your detailed response. I understand your views better now.

as regards "As far as I see it, it is the way things are that our society and our liberal institutions exist by principles of essentially philosophical dialogues. "
I agree that in principle, the constitution and bill of rights were set up by men with such high ideals.

That one or some, of the founders, had slaves is a well known embarrassing fact, as is the fact women weren't given proper rights, and obviously as a consequence of having slaves, and having friends and constituents who had them, blacks weren't given their proper rights - so it was more than embarrassing - it was a huge moral failure right from the beginning - a failure of principles right from the beginning.

I brought Chomsky into the discussion of the "American Dream" as he came to mind as someone who had documented the vacuity of said 'Dream' as it showed it was based on violence to those far away, on an unimaginably horrible and underreported scale.

I watched some videos on Chomsky and am no expert on his views. I am uncertain of his views on Israel. Perhaps I am the one who has swallowed the American medias' views on this.

Earlier in the thread I posted about consumerism and the invention of 'propaganda' also later know as 'public relations' and invented by Edward Bernays. (see: Edward Bernays' 'Propaganda' Deconstructed (Full 10 Hour Series)  if interested, it is on youtube along with much other data).
As part of consumerism both advertising and television were used to influence and mold the public mind at large for financial gain (as opposed to the real good of all) by the corporations & wealthy & powerful classes, showing again total failure of any worthwhile ideals. Again my intention in bringing this up was to show the hollowness of the 'American dream' and by extension I suppose the slogan: 'make america great again'. And to show that the roots of the failure of this society began long before the take over by corporations and lobbyists. Edward Bernays was born in 1891 .

This important history of consumerism (not just Bernays) and the attempt to control the masses for the benefit of the wealthy and powerful, that as we know has continued thru the actions of corporations and lobbyists, and the laws government has made to favor them, begins to build a case for a continuos ignoring of the ideal philosophical dialogues one would expect of truly liberal institutions

I consider American Society to be hypocritical and corrupt to the core. Hence recent events cannot be shocking. What is, is. Things have causes. And the roots in this case were corrupt from the start. I suspect the American Indians (& many other minorities) might have a view similar to mine.


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