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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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it should of course be mentioned that Jefferson had slaves which also brings up the question which Americans are we talking about in 'the dream' ...t this doesn't just mean the usual minorities ... Women didn't have the right to vote for a long time they still don't get equal pay The USA had child labor for a long time... the list of the disenfrachised goes on...
In my mind it seems like it was just a myth of the 1950s for the white upper-middle class around the time dishwashers were becoming, affordable for the 'average' white upper-middle class family
but I guess there's more to the story as
apparently imigrants want to come to this country because the others are so much worse
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Make America Great Again. Appoint Treasury Secretary From Goldman Sachs.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse] 1
#23882915 - 11/30/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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exactly - Make America Great Again.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
#23882946 - 11/30/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm old enough to remember smoking "sections" on planes.
LOL.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23882953 - 11/30/16 08:27 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You ain't seen nothin' yet.
I don't believe in any conspiracy theories or crazy crap... but this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,568
Loc: Utah
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Maybe it never existed. Maybe it exists only as much as we believe that it exists. It's just an idea at the end of the day, and different people have different versions of what the idea means.
Can the average person realistically expect a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, a wife, a white picket fence, a job for life, and a good retirement in America today? Fuck no. But even back in the 50s, that kind of shit was actually really rare. Most people were still getting fucked just as hard as they're getting fucked today.
During the depression, they had posters and murals depicting the american dream literally directly above breadlines. Even while the average person was starving, homeless, and jobless at the peak of the great depression, this idea of the american dream was still being propagated.
It's always been just an idea, and that idea is what we make of it. To some people, the American dream is just about being able to achieve more than their parents. To others its about opening a business and becoming financially successful. Who are you or I to tell someone that their idea about the dream is wrong?
We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea. If you want to say that the American dream is living in an apartment and working your ass off 50+ hours a week at minimum wage, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? How would you even define "wrong" when you're talking about a subjective idea to begin with?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: klhouse]
#23882958 - 11/30/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
klhouse said: You ain't seen nothin' yet.
I don't believe in any conspiracy theories or crazy crap... but this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
Honestly, if I had to listen to that guy for more than a minute, I might just have to hurt myself.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: nooneman] 2
#23883039 - 11/30/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Maybe it never existed. Maybe it exists only as much as we believe that it exists. It's just an idea at the end of the day, and different people have different versions of what the idea means.
Can the average person realistically expect a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, a wife, a white picket fence, a job for life, and a good retirement in America today? Fuck no. But even back in the 50s, that kind of shit was actually really rare. Most people were still getting fucked just as hard as they're getting fucked today.
During the depression, they had posters and murals depicting the american dream literally directly above breadlines. Even while the average person was starving, homeless, and jobless at the peak of the great depression, this idea of the american dream was still being propagated.
It's always been just an idea, and that idea is what we make of it. To some people, the American dream is just about being able to achieve more than their parents. To others its about opening a business and becoming financially successful. Who are you or I to tell someone that their idea about the dream is wrong?
We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea. If you want to say that the American dream is living in an apartment and working your ass off 50+ hours a week at minimum wage, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? How would you even define "wrong" when you're talking about a subjective idea to begin with?
You're right, there's a lot of subjectivity to it, and it's not well defined. It could be different things to different people. I tend to think of it in the broadest sense as being about becoming rich and/or famous = being happy. Clearly, many people wouldn't agree with that. But I think a lot of people do, and I think that is a major factor in what keeps this carousel turning. When the punishments start to outweigh the rewards, things have a tendency to change. Not necessarily for the better.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: klhouse]
#23883043 - 11/30/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
klhouse said: You ain't seen nothin' yet. ... this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
interesting video yup automation is a game changer also under reported is CRISPR which will also be a huge game changer before long https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CRISPR combined with global warming and recent politics, etc. things are about to get very hairy for the next generation
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Khancious
da Crow



Registered: 12/05/12
Posts: 628
Loc: Behind Everything
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
nooneman said: We can make the American dream into anything we want. It's just an idea.
I tend to think of it in the broadest sense as being about becoming rich and/or famous = being happy. Clearly, many people wouldn't agree with that. But I think a lot of people do, and I think that is a major factor in what keeps this carousel turning.

Well stated... we all come into the world with a blank slate of experience and perception. The way we process life might all just be conditioned by our environment from the beginning... so at the basics, if we are still alive, obviously there were people to keep our lights lit by quenching our thirst and hunger, the foundation for longevity. These needs are a driving force, the seed, roots and trunk for all else that branches.
Living in the civilized world has only skewed our awareness to equate that driving force with money because everything has a dollar sign on it, conceptually of course but when a populous agrees on a idea, it becomes "real".
How much money and what you want to do with it is just dressing on the salad, some put their core energies into dreaming up a life beyond basic instincts as we navigate towards hedonistic fulfillment in an american way, which opens a gate into another field of subjectiveness, especially when Love fits into the picture.
-------------------- I am that, which is.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Khancious] 1
#23883719 - 12/01/16 06:08 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Many seem to think The American Dream of owning your house won't take a lot of work. Sure, you can probably take out a mortgage on a house, and pay interest for years, property taxes, insurance and maintenance, but that means you don't own your house.
In fact, you can never own your house, as long as the taxman keeps ringing up a yearly bill. Miss a property tax payment and watch the penalties slap you in the face. Not only interest, but an 8% principal penalty! Don't miss one of those payments or you'll be sorry. I was.
The demographics of home ownership in this country are horrible. Too many baby boomers needing to downsize at some point. Maybe they have a second retirement house and sell their main house. When their kids have to move out of the basement then, it will only add to the rental market. Most millenials are flat effing broke, in student loan debt, car debt, credit card debt. No way they are buying a house.
Plus, the numbers are skewed, all those kids after WW2 made for a peak in population that won't be made up by the younger folks.
The housing market is actually right back to where it was in 2006-7 right before it got bitch slapped hard, which is about to begin given interest rates moving up. Since nobody has cash, they have to rely on mortgages and the payment is all important as to what price of house they can afford. Affordability already sucked even at/because of? record low rates, and now it gets even worse.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23883958 - 12/01/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Very interesting.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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klhouse



Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog] 1
#23884368 - 12/01/16 12:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
klhouse said: You ain't seen nothin' yet. ... this is coming and it is going to be painful for the vast majority.
interesting video yup automation is a game changer also under reported is CRISPR which will also be a huge game changer before long https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CRISPR combined with global warming and recent politics, etc. things are about to get very hairy for the next generation
Well stated. Throw in radicalized religion and a growing movement of anti-intellectualism...
-------------------- Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.
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XpandedMind
Human



Registered: 12/01/16
Posts: 16
Loc: 3rd working on the 4th Di...
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: klhouse] 1
#23886892 - 12/02/16 08:47 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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I love the idea of the American Dream. It breeds a sense of opportunity and self-empowerment. In a society where laws, regulations, social and religious dogma have become accepted to the point that if they are questioned you are marginalized, ostracized, or even labeled irrational and crazy. It brings this beautiful idea to a screeching halt. In order for ideals such as the American Dream to be realized we need a society the asks the hard questions and accepts the hard answers. A society that allows room for the organic growth of the collective, not expecting the growth and evolution of the world to fit into some systemic model.
In conclusion, I do not believe it currently exists. However, I do believe it is possible.
-------------------- "For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..." - Alan Watts
Edited by XpandedMind (12/02/16 08:49 AM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
#23886936 - 12/02/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
XpandedMind said: I love the idea of the American Dream. It breeds a sense of opportunity and self-empowerment. In a society where laws, regulations, social and religious dogma have become accepted to the point that if they are questioned you are marginalized, ostracized, or even labeled irrational and crazy. It brings this beautiful idea to a screeching halt. In order for ideals such as the American Dream to be realized we need a society the asks the hard questions and accepts the hard answers. A society that allows room for the organic growth of the collective, not expecting the growth and evolution of the world to fit into some systemic model.
In conclusion, I do not believe it currently exists. However, I do believe it is possible.
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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XpandedMind
Human



Registered: 12/01/16
Posts: 16
Loc: 3rd working on the 4th Di...
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23887168 - 12/02/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
Individual growth is the catalyst for the integration into a collective mind. In other words it is a means to an end. If we all stopped at the individual it would still remain a selfish world. We keep what we have only by giving it away.
Being self-sufficient means you do not rely on any outside force to achieve what ever it is you are attempting to achieve. Thus, once we achieve self-sufficiency and regain our connection to mother earth the monetary, political, and destructive scientific systems you mentioned will become irrelevant. I believe that what we are seeing here and now is us wading through the garbage of our dire mistakes in the past. We cannot have growth without accepting and correcting what we have already done. Unfortunately, that responsibility falls onto us as individuals and ultimately the collective. So my question for you is, If you believe change starts at the individual(which I am in agreement with), why bother with outside forces you and I both know will not change without a significant shift in the collective mind triggered by individual empowerment? We should recognize the issues at hand. However, our focus should be mainly on the self for the good of the collective. Otherwise, we are wasting valuable energy focusing on something that requires change within a broken system. Not the individual.
-------------------- "For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..." - Alan Watts
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
#23888196 - 12/02/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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One could define self sufficiency when Thoreau went to Walden. But today with a power grid that can have brown outs and worse, and everything computerized and computers dependent on the grid, as well as food production dependent on the fossil fuel: oil/gasoline, whose price is rigged by politics, and financial dealers, we are all much more interdependent than we realize. All it takes is some sort of accident (could be as simple as food poisoning), that effects us or a loved one, and we have the need for a hospital, and once again we realize our dependence on society, much as we may dislike it. The American dream was partly the John Wayne myth. But those days are over. Many go mountain climbing and do other risky things to get the temporary feeling of great independence. Others get an off the grid home in New Mexico. But in my opinion gestures don't equal reality. I do have the choice not to watch TV, and I don't. I do have the choice not to identify with a sports team and much other social folly, but true self sufficiency? no way - I turn on the tap and water comes out. I turn on the computer and use the grid to get to this website, and engage in some minimal social behavior.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: XpandedMind]
#23888660 - 12/02/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
XpandedMind said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
Individual growth is the catalyst for the integration into a collective mind. In other words it is a means to an end. If we all stopped at the individual it would still remain a selfish world. We keep what we have only by giving it away.
Being self-sufficient means you do not rely on any outside force to achieve what ever it is you are attempting to achieve. Thus, once we achieve self-sufficiency and regain our connection to mother earth the monetary, political, and destructive scientific systems you mentioned will become irrelevant. I believe that what we are seeing here and now is us wading through the garbage of our dire mistakes in the past. We cannot have growth without accepting and correcting what we have already done. Unfortunately, that responsibility falls onto us as individuals and ultimately the collective. So my question for you is, If you believe change starts at the individual(which I am in agreement with), why bother with outside forces you and I both know will not change without a significant shift in the collective mind triggered by individual empowerment? We should recognize the issues at hand. However, our focus should be mainly on the self for the good of the collective. Otherwise, we are wasting valuable energy focusing on something that requires change within a broken system. Not the individual.
You assume I agree that the individual needs to work within the collective to get things done. I don't see it that way, in fact the more you move with the herd, the less things get done. Your connection between the individual and the collective is a false narrative, hence your confusion.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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XpandedMind
Human



Registered: 12/01/16
Posts: 16
Loc: 3rd working on the 4th Di...
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: LunarEclipse]
#23889113 - 12/02/16 09:40 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
XpandedMind said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
We don't need growth of "the collective" but your choice of words are interesting. I'd argue that what we need is individualism, self sufficiency, strong backbones and hands that work the soil, bringing life to ourselves and the earth. I don't need society, but society sure seems to need to control me. Growing a plant is considered a crime, yet if we look up to the aerosols that make fake clouds and block the sun, we may argue that those are the criminals. It's funny that modern airplanes are nearly incapable of laying down a trail, yet those fake clouds from planes flying back and forth back and forth are considered "persistent contrails".
So, as long as we are being poisoned from above, and from radiation everywhere, that has no real chance of not being there, we can safely say we are on the cusp of a real nightmare. Even as reported unemployment falls to magical 4.6%, the labor participation rate falls to 35 year lows. Figures lie, and liars figure.
The dream of low interest rates to screw savers and spur asset prices to bubbles as orchestrated by the privately held "Fed" has recently faded a bit with T Bond rates rising .5%. Doesn't seem like much until you realize how big that market is and how mortgage rates are tied at the hip to the 10 year. Affordability of housing is at all time lows at the same time there are more people out of work, than almost ever.
Individual growth is the catalyst for the integration into a collective mind. In other words it is a means to an end. If we all stopped at the individual it would still remain a selfish world. We keep what we have only by giving it away.
Being self-sufficient means you do not rely on any outside force to achieve what ever it is you are attempting to achieve. Thus, once we achieve self-sufficiency and regain our connection to mother earth the monetary, political, and destructive scientific systems you mentioned will become irrelevant. I believe that what we are seeing here and now is us wading through the garbage of our dire mistakes in the past. We cannot have growth without accepting and correcting what we have already done. Unfortunately, that responsibility falls onto us as individuals and ultimately the collective. So my question for you is, If you believe change starts at the individual(which I am in agreement with), why bother with outside forces you and I both know will not change without a significant shift in the collective mind triggered by individual empowerment? We should recognize the issues at hand. However, our focus should be mainly on the self for the good of the collective. Otherwise, we are wasting valuable energy focusing on something that requires change within a broken system. Not the individual.
You assume I agree that the individual needs to work within the collective to get things done. I don't see it that way, in fact the more you move with the herd, the less things get done. Your connection between the individual and the collective is a false narrative, hence your confusion.
Your statements and arguements thus far have been highly contradictory. Which suggests confusion on your part. Im finding this a bit counter productive so I am going to politely excuse myself from this conversation. I will leave you with a quote. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead.
-------------------- "For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..." - Alan Watts
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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There never was an American Dream. So lets just Make America Great Again and move on...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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