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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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The Death of the American Dream
    #23879771 - 11/29/16 08:36 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon.  I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.

What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"?  Is it or was it real?  Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleKush_Zombie
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum] * 4
    #23879811 - 11/29/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's very real, you just have to be asleep to dream it.


--------------------
How to get started in bulk:
Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker
BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box
PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek
Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series
How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs)
What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain)
Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary)
Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful)
Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.


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InvisibleKhancious
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #23879818 - 11/29/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"It's a big fuckin' shopping mall" - Carlin

lol

No doubt, plantations have never went out of style,
they've just transformed into euphemistic necessity.

The heavy hitters are the creators, manifesting dreams
and reaping the fruit which includes the money without
enslaving to the assembly line.

Although I do admire those that live "off-grid",
and in harmony with nature with no dependency on
anything but the environment.


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I am that, which is.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23879870 - 11/29/16 09:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:


What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"?  Is it or was it real?  Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?




funny synchronicity

this evening I am studying consumerism on youtube
was watching videos on how to disconnect from facebook night before last
and the subject came up
so I went to youtube and put in "history of consumerism"
and got many choices
so far they are all interesting and amazing
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=history+of+consumerism+
this is documented stuff - (not conspiracy theory) - but we were never taught any of it.
Anyway it seems fundamental to understanding some of the roots
of how we all got in this mess.
it definitely predates 1970
it all starts back in the 1700 in Europe
but pivotal moments happened in the US in the 1920s and 1950s
it's fascinating stuff
with some real villains

one of the villains:
Edward Bernays
——————————


Edited by laughingdog (11/29/16 09:39 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23880016 - 11/29/16 09:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

one of the villains:
Edward Bernays
- - -
‘Propaganda’ a book by Edward Bernays

“Bernays’ honest and practical manual provides much insight into some of the most powerful and influential institutions of contemporary industrial state capitalist democracies.”—Noam Chomsky

free pdf of book
http://whale.to/b/bernays.pdf
- - - - -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

“He felt this manipulation was necessary in society, which he regarded as irrational and dangerous as a result of the "herd instinct" that Trotter had described.[2]Adam Curtis's award-winning 2002 documentary for theBBC, The Century of the Self, pinpoints Bernays as the originator of modern public relations, and Bernays was named one of the 100 most influential Americans of the 20th century by Life magazine.[3]”


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23880080 - 11/29/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

and on youtube

includes actual interviews with the man

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=EDWARD+BERNAYS


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23880169 - 11/29/16 10:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

That's interesting, I'll check those links out.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23880255 - 11/29/16 11:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon.  I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.

What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"?  Is it or was it real?  Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?




I think that if you learn hard, and work hard, you have a shot to get lucky still.
There were never any guarantees, and that is more true than ever now, but "the american dream" is possible for many people with reasonable aspirations.  I plan to be an aquaponic farmer one day.  I've been taking business, botany/horticulture, and marine science classes.  I've got a lot of it worked out, and once i have some credentials, i'll round up some investors and and parley that into a sizable SBA loan for the land/buildings/equipment.  Might even be able to wrangle an AG grant depending on what they feel like pushing that year.  In a sense, my american dream is similar to that of many early americans.  Own some land, grow some crops, maybe raise a few animals and make a bit of money.  It won't make me a billionaire probably, but it's attainable.


--------------------


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23880288 - 11/29/16 11:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I've always seen the "American dream" as basically one big Ponzi scheme.
The measures of success set in stone and dictated by the elite.
The gap between haves and nots ever widened because fundamentally that's the underlining motive.
You can't all have it all and nor should you.
Much like the Ponzi scheme there is not built in off switch it will continue till it and we implode.....fun while it lasted though eh?


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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InvisibleMollyLucyMaryJane

Registered: 09/10/11
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: pineninja]
    #23880369 - 11/30/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Im an American and my dream is to see other countries as much as possible. Other cultures, smells, foods ect.

The American dream is and always has been a stereotype to what the majority of Americans eventually end up doing with their lives. House,wife,kids,1.5 dogs, white picket fence.

In the end there never was an "American dream" as all Americans dream about different things, be it skydiving, scuba diving, cliff jumping or just watching football every sunday.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: MollyLucyMaryJane]
    #23880738 - 11/30/16 05:59 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23880961 - 11/30/16 08:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hunter S. Thompson wrote of "the death of the American Dream" in the 1970s, which he blamed on Richard Nixon.  I'm frankly not so sure it was ever alive, but I think it's safe to say that now, forty years after Dr. Thompson's original diagnosis, it has without a doubt been fully cremated.

What are some of your thoughts on the "American Dream"?  Is it or was it real?  Do we still live in the land of opportunity, or is it more like the land of dysfunction at this point?




I think that if you learn hard, and work hard, you have a shot to get lucky still.
There were never any guarantees, and that is more true than ever now, but "the american dream" is possible for many people with reasonable aspirations.  I plan to be an aquaponic farmer one day.  I've been taking business, botany/horticulture, and marine science classes.  I've got a lot of it worked out, and once i have some credentials, i'll round up some investors and and parley that into a sizable SBA loan for the land/buildings/equipment.  Might even be able to wrangle an AG grant depending on what they feel like pushing that year.  In a sense, my american dream is similar to that of many early americans.  Own some land, grow some crops, maybe raise a few animals and make a bit of money.  It won't make me a billionaire probably, but it's attainable.





I wish you the best of good luck, ballsalsa. :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: pineninja]
    #23880966 - 11/30/16 08:47 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
I've always seen the "American dream" as basically one big Ponzi scheme.
The measures of success set in stone and dictated by the elite.
The gap between haves and nots ever widened because fundamentally that's the underlining motive.
You can't all have it all and nor should you.
Much like the Ponzi scheme there is not built in off switch it will continue till it and we implode.....fun while it lasted though eh?





This is where my sentiments lie.  Nice post.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23881530 - 11/30/16 12:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

planned obsolescence

Milton Friedman influential economist

advertising, advertising repetition, advertising psychology, manipulation of the public, Edward Bernays (Freud’s Nephew), mind control, public relations, spin, convincing women to smoke, linking it to women’s liberation

advertising
exploitation of emotion and unconscious
“stuff and buying will make you happy

branding,  brand awareness

concept of luxury goods
jewelry, cosmetics, designer clothing

Religion

mass production, factories, assembly line, Henry Ford, automation

Adam Smith, capitalism

Department stores invented 1852

production out paces population (1860) -1920s
ratio of 3 to 12  (at 29 min)
corporations mandated to have profit as highest goal by law  John Edgerton
production as an end in itself
citizen replaced by consumer
people must be convinced their identity depends
upon consumption of unnecessary products
after 1920 selling based on psychology, not merit or function

“The status seekers” Vance Packard, merchants of discontent

American Dream defined at 37 & 38:29



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23881589 - 11/30/16 01:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Hugely interesting.  "Happiness was just one possession away."  Really sick stuff.  Unfortunately, it's the reality for probably well over a hundred million American citizens. One of the speakers in the video described 'relative deprivation' as a major psychological component of the American psyche.  He was describing people who feel that $5 or $10 million is not enough, and don't even think of themselves as rich if that's what they've got.

We live in an utterly twisted society.


Ultimately, the engine fueling this whole debacle is the fabrication of wants, and you've laid out some very exact evidence in this thread for precisely that.  There's been nothing like it in the history of the world; this shit makes Rome look like a monastery.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23881675 - 11/30/16 01:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hugely interesting.  ....
We live in an utterly twisted society.
.... There's been nothing like it in the history of the world; this shit makes Rome look like a monastery.




indeed
it's an amazing story
I continue to study it
and as you have pointed out
more automation will be the next step in this folly
also perhaps you remember the movie "Wag the Dog" about 'spin'
where advertising goes to a whole new level
and of course with recent events...


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: laughingdog]
    #23881699 - 11/30/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

the combination of war and reserve banking force the public into a neverending battle against inflation where by it's nature, no amount of money will ever be enough to hedge against what the government takes in the form of inflation to wage wars.  It's pretty convenient for promoting a society enslaved to money.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23881751 - 11/30/16 01:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

The 'American Dream' died when the wage gap began to grow and money found a way to influence politicians in the 1970's.

Without a minimum wage of $12-15 it'll probably stay that way, additionally of course Citizens United needs to be overturned with an amendment.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleKurt
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23881990 - 11/30/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

A dream?

The politics are always grasp, but it seems like the things people say sometimes have some basis, and humanness and at least a decent idea or principle behind them in my experience. Is it the same for many nations of the world? Is it we have a general ideal, but also our particular optimism in America.

I have always liked the way some of the first generation of American poets and intellectuals - especially the early transcendentalists - wrote. Walt Whitman on the "largesse" of America. Is how "true" this generosity is in our day, how true it must be...? Henry David Thoreau in Civil Disobedience, more critically, that government, (and he seems to be speaking of an American government simpliciter) is "necessary expedience"...

What I take to be the american dream, has to precede its ideal in a way, and just be an idea. To speak of justice and human rights, and the basic possibility of economical prosperity is said to rounded and interrelated thing for Americans. Why? Well, DQ, I think you are familiar with Noam Chomsky's critique Madisonian Democracy; the fact that one of our founding fathers perceived a threat in democracy, and a need to protect an Aristocracy from what he called a "too democratic" or "too participatory" system. Naturally we take it for granted that there was a basic idea and basic claim, but apparently it was much more of a dialogue.



So I don't know how much sense it makes to put it in philosophical terms, but if this notion is central, (as we must take it) it also dialectically projects its meaning outward. This would say that socio-economical prosperity, and a right to pursue life liberty and happiness, is a right that is found in unique dialogue with its very possibility. So as you point out, right on point - If our economical tendencies become inflated and deflated, so do our basic american ideals, and how we think of them.

There is something I have been thinking about recently (especially since the election) which I think relates to your question.

I think in certain ways, an American ethic (which in a human and humane attitude precedes politics, and is not necessarily per se political) is based on criticizing the means of expedience, which are vast. Whitman could not have recognized this in his day's progressive humanism. It is much less poetic. For instance, if I buy fair trade coffee - or even if I support local farms, the ethical prerogative which I act within, is based on the existence of this far spread system and structure which I criticize for the most part. I try to mitigate this violence. Am I this reflex, or am I this reaction?

For whatever technical prerogative this strongly utilitarian ethics has in fairness, and meeting the other, it is not face to face. If I concern myself about the real structural-historical problem of racism, I typically lean up against the walls I write upon and against. To put it squarely philosophical language, in utilitarian ethics, in order to critique something this way, a system, it must be there. 

That seems to me to be the down side of America's largesse, and I don't know... maybe collectively or as a nation we are on the worse side of it? It may have been a great idea when we were expanding the frontier, great to mechanize and industrialize when were fighting two world wars. This industrious spirit is expansive. The same notions must inform our contemporary world, and so it seems like people like us who occasionally think on these things, look to how an american dream can be justified. Should it be? Must it be...? Or is it a train off its tracks? Maybe we conscience thinking about it as much as we must, and just try to live our lives these days individually or with a pocket of friends and community. I am sure a few of us dream of simplicity, and a reasonably just system, and that is something to be modestly optimistic about...


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Death of the American Dream [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #23882058 - 11/30/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

If the train is not off the tracks, it is at least going ninety miles an hour with no possibility of stopping quickly.  You mention the founders of this country.  That was an extremely different time.  I would say that an ideal approximating what we call the "American Dream" may have been in place during the birth of our nation, as the notion of democratic republicanism was very new and exciting.  It had never been tried before, anywhere.  Jefferson was foremost of the idealists and dreamers that America, through its democracy and republican values (which meant something different at the time), as well as a more libertarian social dynamic, would amount to a country exhibiting essentially a political and existential paradise.  Such an outlook was appropriate for their ignorance around the turn of the nineteenth century.  Along about the Jackson administration, one could no longer sanely hold that view.  The American Dream has been dead for a long time, and we seem to keep exhuming the body every couple of decades to flog it some more and then re-inter it.

When one looks at some of the things Jefferson said and did, it seems appallingly naive and foolishly idealistic.  The Federalists of the day were appropriately more cynical than the Republicans, people like John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, and even Washington to an extent, urging the early nation that Jefferson's pure democracy, with smaller government and an agrarian framework, would be a failure, especially in the northern states.

These Federalists constitute the position you mentioned.

I think it is safe to say that the Federalists were more right; however, if any one of those people were alive today they would undoubtedly say their experiment was a failure.  Even in the time of Jefferson, the nation was slipping away to corruption, financial speculation, yellow journalism, and the like.  What we have is not what the founders intended, not by a long stretch.


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