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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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the nature of samadhi
    #23876329 - 11/28/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It seems that in samadhi, there would be both a supreme connection with the body, and also a severing from it.  Which do you feel is more significant, or more fundamental?  The oneness with the body and all nature, or the transcending of it?


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23876343 - 11/28/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think in deep samadhi there might be no perception of the body as we commonly perceive it - but rather immersion in the infinitude of divine light that all is composed of - so in that sense there's also no separation from anything including the body. so to me, it seems important to question what exactly the body is, and how we know and relate with it in our consciousness. neat question :smile:


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23876375 - 11/28/16 08:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

also I imagine there's probably many different kinds of samadhi experiences - some would probably still involve awareness of sense functions although in a unified state, whereas other ones would be more divine in nature. some traditions, like Buddhism, use samadhi as a term to just mean single-pointed concentration, which is more of a mundane definition than samadhi in Hinduism - which is more cosmic, absolute, transcendent. it makes sense to me that reality would have many planes or layers or potential states to be absorbed in, and that samadhi is not a singular thing. I know some traditions break samadhi up into different categories - like salvakalpa samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi, sahaja samadhi, etc


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: deff] * 1
    #23876430 - 11/28/16 08:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Great insights deff, thanks. :thumbup:


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: deff] * 1
    #23876435 - 11/28/16 08:34 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

Where does the body and sense of self begin, extend and end?
Are there really barriers, or is that just an accumulation of being absorbed into being "somebody" in this civilized sector of experience?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: Khancious]
    #23877178 - 11/29/16 03:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

samadhi is just another word for concentration applied to a single point of focus

what your referring to in your OP is actually Jhanic States.


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23877180 - 11/29/16 03:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Vihāra Sutta: Dwellings (2)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2011
"Monks, I will teach you the nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And what, monks, are the nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments?

[1] "Wherever sensual resolves cease and those who repeatedly are stopping sensual resolves dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where do sensual resolves cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping sensual resolves dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. That is where sensual resolves cease, and where those who repeatedly are stopping sensual resolves dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[2] "Wherever directed thoughts & evaluations cease and those who repeatedly are stopping directed thoughts & evaluations dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where do directed thoughts & evaluations cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping directed thoughts & evaluations dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. That is where directed thoughts & evaluations cease, and where those who repeatedly are stopping directed thoughts & evaluations dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[3] "Wherever rapture ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping rapture dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does rapture cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping rapture dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the fading of rapture, remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare, "Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding." That is where rapture ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping rapture dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[4] "Wherever the pleasure of equanimity[1] ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the pleasure of equanimity dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the pleasure of equanimity cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the pleasure of equanimity dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhāna: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. That is where the pleasure of equanimity ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the pleasure of equanimity dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[5] "Wherever the perception of form ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of form dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of form cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of form dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, (perceiving,) "Infinite space," enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. That is where the perception of form ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of form dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[6] "Wherever the perception of the infinitude of space ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of space dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of the infinitude of space cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of space dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, (perceiving,) "Infinite consciousness," enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. That is where the perception of the infinitude of space ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of space dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[7] "Wherever the perception of the infinitude of consciousness ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of consciousness dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of the infinitude of consciousness cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of consciousness dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, (perceiving,) "There is nothing," enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. That is where the perception of the infinitude of consciousness ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of consciousness dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[8] "Wherever the perception of nothingness ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of nothingness dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of nothingness cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of nothingness dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. That is where the perception of nothingness ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of nothingness dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[9] "Wherever the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling.[2] That is where the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

"These, monks, are the nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments."

Note

1.
In AN 9.34, the "affliction" of the third jhāna that is abandoned in the fourth jhāna is said to be equanimity. However, the fourth jhāna also contains equanimity. Thus the statement in this sutta — that the pleasure of equanimity is abandoned in the fourth jhāna — seems more consistent with the fourth jhāna as described in the standard formula. AN 9.42 is in agreement with this sutta on this point.
2.
Notice that this description of the cessation of perception & feeling lacks the statement often added in passages where this attainment is described: "and, having seen [that] with discernment, his effluents are completely ended."


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23877182 - 11/29/16 03:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Samadhi

Noble right concentration
"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23877184 - 11/29/16 03:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Samadhi

"Wise & mindful, you should develop immeasurable concentration [i.e., concentration based on immeasurable good will, compassion, appreciation, or equanimity]. When, wise & mindful, one has developed immeasurable concentration, five realizations arise right within oneself. Which five?

"The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is blissful in the present and will result in bliss in the future.'

"The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is noble & not connected with the baits of the flesh.'

"The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is not obtained by base people.'

"The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is peaceful, exquisite, the acquiring of serenity, the attainment of unity, not kept in place by the fabrications of forceful restraint.'

"The realization arises right within oneself that 'I enter into this concentration mindfully, and mindfully I emerge from it.'

"Wise & mindful, you should develop immeasurable concentration. When, wise & mindful, one has developed immeasurable concentration, these five realizations arise right within oneself."


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23877440 - 11/29/16 07:42 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

there are different traditions that use the term samadhi to mean different things. you're right from the buddhist context, but it is also found in Hindu traditions to mean something else :smile:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: deff]
    #23877442 - 11/29/16 07:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

lol


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OnlineEclipse3130
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: The Blind Ass] * 2
    #23877450 - 11/29/16 07:57 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Is it relatable to Nirvana, I've had one experience where I died and convinced myself I was in heaven, a perfect place of peace. Nothing was to be asked as all was already known, no thoughts to be held as time stood still on the tip of a needle, perfect doesn't do it justice, its beyond perfect, beyond imagination to the point you are nothing but humbled, no words to speak, stuck in awe. One experience should last a life time, I haven't tripped that hard since 2 years ago, the experience is formed into who I am


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"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


Edited by Eclipse3130 (11/29/16 08:02 AM)


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23877472 - 11/29/16 08:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

sounds good :thumbup:


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23877484 - 11/29/16 08:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
samadhi is just another word for concentration applied to a single point of focus

what your referring to in your OP is actually Jhanic States.




Jhanic states are biologically experienced via the cns


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: yeah]
    #23877503 - 11/29/16 08:25 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

yes that plays a factor.  hence the temporary abandoning sense desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, worry and flurry, and doubt- which have physiological bases.

there have been tests run with scientific rigor on some forms of meditation, not sure if any are related to the Jhana dwellings, but in some cases that I have read blood flow becomes increased or decreased to different areas of the brain that have to do with locus of identity, spacial boundary, and discursive thinking, and more off the top of my head.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (11/29/16 08:34 AM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23877507 - 11/29/16 08:26 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Eclipse3130 said:
Is it relatable to Nirvana, I've had one experience where I died and convinced myself I was in heaven, a perfect place of peace. Nothing was to be asked as all was already known, no thoughts to be held as time stood still on the tip of a needle, perfect doesn't do it justice, its beyond perfect, beyond imagination to the point you are nothing but humbled, no words to speak, stuck in awe. One experience should last a life time, I haven't tripped that hard since 2 years ago, the experience is formed into who I am




No.  Nirvana is not a mystical experience. But what you say does sound similar or related to the first or second  one of the Jhanas, or just drug induced mystical experience, which sometimes allows for jhanic factors to arise and some other stuff in certain conditions and be in proximity of them.

But really I have no idea, I cannot make a guess based off what you have said without having an actual conversation with you in person.




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Edited by The Blind Ass (11/29/16 08:31 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23882312 - 11/30/16 04:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It seems that in samadhi, there would be both a supreme connection with the body, and also a severing from it.  Which do you feel is more significant, or more fundamental?  The oneness with the body and all nature, or the transcending of it?




my guess is that language is dualistic
and
samadhi is a temporary state of concentration and  non dualistic perception

hence as we understand language in a linear discriminating mode
even an accurate answer tends to mislead

hence the saying:
'meditation is not what you think it is'

note it is a temporary state
deep lasting realization of 'non-self'
must also happen  'to progress'  further

seems that although temporary it is a necessary step
in reducing identification with thought.


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: laughingdog]
    #23882388 - 11/30/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

another way of groking ...

thinking is linear, logical, descriptive

but

experiencing is not logical, linear, or descriptive

note

so far no mysticism or spirituality is involved

the moment we explain silence,
we are actively destroying it

so although science can ‘explain’ silence by talking about vibrations in air and the inner ear and brain etc.
Continuously explaining prevents any chance of experiencing it, which is more real and intimate.

Like wise samadhi is about awareness, (that is context not content, similar to silence as background to sound), and not about contemplation or thought (which is content not context, similar to noise).

This is why zen masters do not explain.

Samadhi is not experienced by understanding it, but by the opposite, letting go of attempting to understand it; then its already preexisting nature is realized; just as silence was always present, only we had to stop making noise to hear it.

hence Buddha said he attained nothing thru realization / aka / awakening

note still no spiritual claims or theology which is actually all just 'thought baggage'
or 'scientific theory' --- all that is let go of -- to realize what simply already is --- which need not be named


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: laughingdog]
    #23883339 - 11/30/16 11:23 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting and thank you laughingdog, gives me a bit of clarity in my own thoughts, in that I try to "understand" God so that I may have "attained" Him.

I cannot...

I try but I do not understand any of it, except that it alone is, and everything else is my fault.


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Re: the nature of samadhi [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23883421 - 12/01/16 12:20 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Which do you feel is more significant, or more fundamental?  The oneness with the body and all nature, or the transcending of it?



knowing all is one is trancendence of the body.

dont confuse knowing with thinking.


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