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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: DailyShroomer]
#24522578 - 08/01/17 10:50 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Community data, just put together.
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24523782 - 08/01/17 10:22 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can always replace the enrichment solution (compost, calcium water, soluble nutrients) with plant extract and calcium water, right?? (Generally referring to your WL-tek)
Except when I want to germinate spores then sucrose should be amended, right?? This is what you have been working for months, right Ferather??
What do you think about using 100% vermiculite enriched with calcium and nutrients for WL-tek?? Also can you give comments on alternatives like coir and tree fern fiber?? Especially the tree fern fiber.
Edited by DailyShroomer (08/01/17 11:40 PM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: DailyShroomer]
#24524526 - 08/02/17 10:08 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DailyShroomer said: I can always replace the enrichment solution (compost, calcium water, soluble nutrients) with plant extract and calcium water, right?? (Generally referring to your WL-tek)
You can enrich with whatever you want, just be aware of the risks of adding high amounts starch-sugar to a 100% cellulose base. Here is almost the same technique, except this recipe uses pet pellet feed to enrich the basic cellulose (paper pellets).
If you are looking for a really easy to do tek, you can just do calcium bathed straw, enrichment is optional.
Quote:
DailyShroomer said: Except when I want to germinate spores then sucrose should be amended, right??
Correct if you added enough starch-sugar to WL-Tek it will germinate all sorts of organisms for you. The same goes for adding for example too much tea extract, you get germination.
Enough extract will replace the lignin which was removed.
Quote:
DailyShroomer said: What do you think about using 100% vermiculite enriched with calcium and nutrients for WL-tek??
Unless you add an ample amount of bio-available carbon along side the macro-micro nutrients not much will happen. Vermiculite provides very little, was it does provide is a few elements, and needs full enriching e.g. grain flour.
The gain flour will add bio-available carbon and macro-micro nutrients, hence BRF-Tek.
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DailyShroomer said: Also can you give comments on alternatives like coir and tree fern fiber?? Especially the tree fern fiber.
Coir (plant fiber) yes, definitely, fern tree I am not sure, sorry.
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24524646 - 08/02/17 11:13 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: You can enrich with whatever you want, just be aware of the risks of adding high amounts starch-sugar to a 100% cellulose base.
You mean plant extract contains ample starch-sugar or lignin to support organism germination?? Is that the reason you switch to miracle gro and yeast nutrient? What about antibacterial compounds from plant extracts?? Or maybe can you add plant extract which contain antifungal properties to make inhospitable substrate for mold but giving your choice mushroom spawn an edge in quantity?
Quote:
Ferather said: Coir (plant fiber) yes, definitely, fern tree I am not sure, sorry.
Is there an advantage of using coir instead of paper pellets for WL-tek??
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24524703 - 08/02/17 11:34 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Unless you add an ample amount of bio-available carbon along side the macro-micro nutrients not much will happen. Vermiculite provides very little, was it does provide is a few elements, and needs full enriching e.g. grain flour.
The gain flour will add bio-available carbon and macro-micro nutrients, hence BRF-Tek.
If I enrich the verm with soluble macro micro nutrients and CaCO3 (soluble carbon) regularly, will it make a difference?? I'm thinking about usage of 100% verm to decrease chances of contamination, but that might not be the case here.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Posts: 6,325
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: DailyShroomer]
#24524967 - 08/02/17 01:48 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DailyShroomer said:
Quote:
Ferather said: You can enrich with whatever you want, just be aware of the risks of adding high amounts starch-sugar to a 100% cellulose base.
You mean plant extract contains ample starch-sugar or lignin to support organism germination?? Is that the reason you switch to miracle gro and yeast nutrient? What about antibacterial compounds from plant extracts?? Or maybe can you add plant extract which contain antifungal properties to make inhospitable substrate for mold but giving your choice mushroom spawn an edge in quantity??
Lignin and other similar phenol's support woodloving germination and growth, only pH effectively changes the chance. There is no starch, sugar or cellulose in the tea extract (including green tea), so no carbohydrates present.
I don't bother with adding compost to WL-Tek, so I just have cellulose and macro-micro nutrients. Cellulose is not soluble and requires decent resources to digest, so use starch spawn.
If your substrate contains no soluble or easy carbon, no contamination. This includes starch, sugar and even plant extractives.
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DailyShroomer said:
Quote:
Ferather said: Coir (plant fiber) yes, definitely, fern tree I am not sure, sorry.
Is there an advantage of using coir instead of paper pellets for WL-tek??
I've never done a side-by-side but I know coir contains some lignin.
Quote:
DailyShroomer said:
Quote:
Ferather said: Unless you add an ample amount of bio-available carbon along side the macro-micro nutrients not much will happen. Vermiculite provides very little, was it does provide is a few elements, and needs full enriching e.g. grain flour.
The gain flour will add bio-available carbon and macro-micro nutrients, hence BRF-Tek.
If I enrich the verm with soluble macro micro nutrients and CaCO3 (soluble carbon) regularly, will it make a difference?? I'm thinking about usage of 100% verm to decrease chances of contamination, but that might not be the case here.
If it does it will be very weak and slow, and definitely wont fruit, maybe for storage. CaCO3 contains only 12% carbon, and not enough can be added.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24525020 - 08/02/17 02:22 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Further thoughts, calcium (lime) bathing straw will do the following:
> Alter end pH, usually above 7, and up to 8.4 (P.Stamets). > Remove and decay straw extractives (usually acidic). > Directly inhibit any lime hating organisms.
All three effects reduce germination of mold and other. The extract could be sterilized and used with agar.
Personally I would bathe then pasteurize.
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24525771 - 08/02/17 07:37 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24526296 - 08/02/17 11:19 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: If it does it will be very weak and slow, and definitely wont fruit, maybe for storage. CaCO3 contains only 12% carbon, and not enough can be added.
Hmmm how about vermiculite and plant extractive, then?? As an alternative for BRF with plant soluble carbons and no starch or sugar?? I think that would be pretty interesting to test out.
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: DailyShroomer]
#24526537 - 08/03/17 02:23 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Vermiculite added with CaCO3 water based plant extractives, so that the purpose is to add soluble carbons and nutrients into grit material. Vermiculite is chosen because of moisture absorption capability. So basically something like "Reverse WL-tek" where WL-Tek utilizes pure cellulose and complex carbons to prevent contaminants, "Reverse WL-tek" provides grit as substrate but more "easy carbons and nutrients" in hope that mycelium will grow through crevices of the grit material while utilizing nutritious moisture around the substrate. Both of them forgo the use of carbohydrates to decrease chances of contaminants germinating.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: DailyShroomer]
#24526962 - 08/03/17 08:38 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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You could definitely try that, as an agar alternative or storage, currently I'm investigating making spawn without starch-sugar.
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24527014 - 08/03/17 09:07 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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What do you think about the contamination rate?? Don't you think it's in the same caliber as your cellulose+macro micro nutrient sub??? Or perhaps it should be treated like liquid culture since carbons in the form of solution?
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24527015 - 08/03/17 09:08 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: You could definitely try that, as an agar alternative or storage, currently I'm investigating making spawn without starch-sugar.
Haven't you been successful?? With your macro micro nutrient enriched 100% cellulose spawn?
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: DailyShroomer]
#24527034 - 08/03/17 09:20 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DailyShroomer said: What do you think about the contamination rate?? Don't you think it's in the same caliber as your cellulose+macro micro nutrient sub??? Or perhaps it should be treated like liquid culture since carbons in the form of solution?
There is some chance of mold, since the extracts are soluble like a liquid culture. However I am yet to get mold on the recipe at pH 7-8, so a low chance.
Quote:
DailyShroomer said:
Quote:
Ferather said: You could definitely try that, as an agar alternative or storage, currently I'm investigating making spawn without starch-sugar.
Haven't you been successful?? With your macro micro nutrient enriched 100% cellulose spawn?
Tons of success with WL-Tek as a fruiting substrate (where spawn is used), as far as making spawn from it, it needs the quick carbon. For spores to germinate on WL-Tek you will need to add starch-sugar or other to activate and germinate the spores.
Usually starch-sugar based grain is used as spawn (starch-sugar = easy to eat). I am testing tea extracts on WL-Tek to create woodloving spawn.
WL-Tek wood pellets will likely work as spawn.
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24527068 - 08/03/17 09:40 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: There is some chance of mold, since the extracts are soluble like a liquid culture. However I am yet to get mold on the recipe at pH 7-8, so a low chance.
Quote:
Don't you think the presence of mineral and absence of lignocellulosic substrate will give mycelium an edge. Maybe the plant extract should be measured so that the liquid fully absorbed by the vermiculite and the mycelium will be forced to colonize pores of vermiculite to fulfill its carbon needs. I imagine the vermiculite to act as a sponge here.
Also what do you think about this technique to handle winter loving species, like winter shiitake?? Basically you just incubate them inside the fridge. Will the cold make difference here in regards of contams?
Quote:
Ferather said: Tons of success with WL-Tek as a fruiting substrate (where spawn is used), as far as making spawn from it, it needs the quick carbon. For spores to germinate on WL-Tek you will need to add starch-sugar or other to activate and germinate the spores.
Usually starch-sugar based grain is used as spawn (starch-sugar = easy to eat). I am testing tea extracts on WL-Tek to create woodloving spawn.
WL-Tek wood pellets will likely work as spawn.
Maybe try using plant extract based LC to inoculate the WL-Tek spawn?? The plant extract should be kept at minimum because probably the contamination rate will be higher since you're using 100% cellulose here.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: DailyShroomer]
#24527493 - 08/03/17 12:59 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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You are almost there, let me explain a bit better. Spores and endospores are the enemy, they activate and germinate on solubles. So in order to germinate a carbon based life form, you will need a soluble carbon source, and soluble nutrients.
Once the organism has germinated, it will build up resources from the solubles, and begin on cellulose. If you have a cellulose substrate, void of all soluble carbon, you get no activation of spores.
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Natural wood will contain lignin, a soluble carbon source, ideal for most woodloving. Paper pellets, are processed wood, with no solubles present, all removed.
As mentioned wood is weak in macro-micro's, and paper is worse. Paper pellets are no longer considered lignocellulosic.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24527510 - 08/03/17 01:11 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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100% wood can germinate woodloving mold, not a massively high chance, but it still can get moldy. If you add enough lignin, tannin's and so on, to paper, it becomes more like wood again.
Try 1 bag to 125g CaCO3 water, use 75g extract to 25g paper pellets.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24527743 - 08/03/17 03:12 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you look at my cellulose agar method, you can see you can do the "sugar drop" method, using a syringe. This allows you to directly add a soluble carbon source, rather than add sugar to the whole media.
If you do WL-Tek, just paper and nutrient solubles, you will a lot gain more control. This method can be used to germinate spores, using a peg as a marker.
It's also possible to collect dry spores using a dry peg.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24527763 - 08/03/17 03:19 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here is an experiment where I "sugar dropped" some cubensis spores onto WL-Tek. It took 3-4 days to germinate, unfortunately there was not enough GE.
This is plain WL-Tek, just paper and soluble nutrients.

This is what you get with the right GE.
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DailyShroomer
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Re: Ferather's Corner | Experiments, tests and data [Re: Ferather]
#24528298 - 08/03/17 07:47 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nice explanation, Ferather! Now I understand how your WL-tek works.
Btw I'm just wondering right now. I made an analogy that your WL-tek, depending on your soluble carbon and macro micro nutrient amendment must be the toughest substrate for mushroom to digest out there, second will be good ol' fresh wood for primary decomposers like oysters, reishi, etc. Is that right?? Due to the complex form of carbon in your WL-tek which needs cellulose breaking enzymes in order to extract, and in wood, due to the cell walls protecting the soluble carbons which needs further breakdown by enzymes.
I'm wondering if these "tough mushrooms", oysters, reishis, lion's mane, etc are able to digest through your limited carbon substrate because of they already conditioned in nature to extract carbons from "hard sources", then what about the "weaker mushrooms" like ground dwelling fungi??
I'm thinking how about creating "Reverse WL-tek" to cultivate these "weak fungi" to provide "porridge" for them as they lack the "teeth" wood lovers have. Correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.
Also don't you think your WL-tek is better suited to cultivate brown rot fungi??
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