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Offlineblackout
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Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days
    #23809538 - 11/07/16 12:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I added 200g grain to excess water with about 2 grams of "regular sugar" sucrose and a gram or 2 of bakers yeast, left this ferment for 15days. Smelt fairly OK after that, microwaved it until it was fairly dry (not bone dry) and now undecided what to do next -either add water back and microwave again once or else steam it after water is added.

I was unsure if it was 150g or 200g that I soaked, the microwaved drish grains came out at 205g so I figure it was 200g. After soaking it was 365g, presuming the grain was about 13% natural moisture content this would mean a moisture content of about 52% which is what I usually aim for-but this is not accurate since the yeast will have fermented any fermentable sugars in the grain which would have been lost in the rinse, and enzymes may have made other starches fermentable, I am not sure. I could microwave again until bone dry.

The grains appeared wetter than 52% moisture, but maybe since they were never cooked they did not look like my regular ones at that moisture level. Maybe they could have got away with being steamed after a rinse and drain.

The idea behind this is to get all contaminants to grow and knock them out with a single or double heat treatment at 100C or below. I have had success with soaking for a week and having a single heat treatment (microwave). More endospores and/or other contams as said to be produced during this time, but I have also read theories that the newly formed ones are easily killed off. In fractional sterilization techniques John Tyndall warned against leaving too long between heat treatments due to this (he said not to wait 24hrs which many textbooks wrongly paraphrase him as saying to do), but I reckon he was also concerned about keeping foods texture and taste intact, which we are not so concerned about.

RR mentioned people in third world countries soaking for a week or so (no yeast) and steaming the grains and growing. The main downside being lost nutrients, obviously time is a factor. I did not like the idea of letting the first contam to grow take over (he said they would be stinking badly) so I wanted to use yeast as the main "contaminant" to be growing, which would be the main one. While microwaving they smelt a little off, but not horrible as I have smelt before in other experiments with contaminated grains.

The one thing that really struck me was that the grains were extremely shakeable after being cooked, the starch was evidently rinsed off or used up during its fermentation. I wondered if these dried out grains could be stored and used later with a simple soak and steam, which might suit some people. Moisture loss is a big issue with microwaving, the grains could also be baked to drive moisture off. Then they could be rehydrated and steamed, a form of intermittent sterilization

This is obviously more of interest to people without a PC who might be starting out, or people who want to do bulk in large steamers, or submersion techniques which I have also been testing. I have photos I may post if there is a decent amount of interest, questions & critiques welcome

-if all you have to say is "why would I do this, I have a PC" or "just get a PC", then I would kindly ask you to fuck off you little ray of sunshine you...

Edited by cronicr (11/07/16 12:18 PM)

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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: blackout]
    #23809551 - 11/07/16 12:19 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:lolsy: sorry bro...couldn't resist.


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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: cronicr]
    #23809567 - 11/07/16 12:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:hehehe: hahaha, love it!:wink:

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: blackout]
    #23809591 - 11/07/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Just stopping in to see what comes of this. Should be interesting at any rate.

:sun: :popcorn:  :grin:

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23809633 - 11/07/16 12:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23809904 - 11/07/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Inoculate!

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: spore-ty] * 1
    #23810061 - 11/07/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

for below 100C treatments to work all conditions for all contaminant spores(that are heat resistant) need to be met. and all(or damn nearly all) the spores need to germinate.

beer wort needs only be boiled because yeast fermentation drops the pH and creates an anerobic environment. hence the spores don't germinate. they're still in the beer and would grow if it ever became aerobic enough and with a rise in pH.

you can't store wort(or grain water) without pressure cooking it, and if you ferment(like you did with yeast) it you don't rid the spores you just prevent them from growing. so how do you get around that?

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: spore-ty]
    #23812830 - 11/08/16 01:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

spore-ty said:
Inoculate!



Done, a small bit of agar, which is hopefully clean. The culture has proven clean but I was not taking much care with the dish on the last few transfers as I did not plan on using it again. I did not shake it into the grains so if I see contams around the wedge then at least it will be a sign that the grains were possibly still OK.

Unfortunately I will not be convinced if the fermentation did its job since I have now done a form of intermittent sterilization on it, which I already know works for me. I added water to the jar and microwaved it on low to hydrate it again and give it another heat treatment. I left it cool in the microwave but in the morning it looked still looked too wet so got another blast.

1 test jar would certainly not be conclusive anyway.

I was very impressed with the shakeability and it did not smell as bad as I expected so I will be trying it again, and not microwaving it. I do think it took on too much moisture though, so a shorter soak might be better, maybe 1 week. I also might try one with pouring on boiling water at the start, and another not. It could probably be better trying to at least kill off some of the initial contaminants, rather than an extreme oversimplification. I might also try campden tablets commonly used in homebrew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablet but it gets rid of chlorine which could be beneficial. In this cold weather there is less chlorine being used in my water supply.

Edited by blackout (11/08/16 01:44 PM)

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: blackout]
    #23812860 - 11/08/16 01:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:takingnotes:


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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23812887 - 11/08/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting points Bodh. I'm saving a seat to see how this turns out. :smile:

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OfflineKenetic
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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: dankington]
    #23812980 - 11/08/16 02:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting......very interesting.......

:popcorn:


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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: Kenetic] * 1
    #23813209 - 11/08/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Found the RR quote again, which did happen to be 2 weeks, I thought it was 1.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
One method used for mushroom farming in third world countries without pressure cookers is to soak the grains for about two weeks.  It gets seriously rancid with bacteria, but the bacteria eat up most of the sugars, and then die.  When you boil the grains, they're effectively sterilized. 

The main problem with this method is the mushroom mycelium would like some of those sugars as well, and performance is limited.

I'm not recommending this method, but if you guys want to experiment with not using pressure cookers, here's a way to do it and the success rate is higher than fractional sterilization.
RR




He says it is more successful than fractional sterilization, but I have not seen his methods of doing that -as I said before most textbook instructions for fractional sterilization instruct you to do what the originator specifically said would fail, so are really simply proving him right about his predictions of failure. The initial Tyndall instructions seemed to be for broths too, grains will obviously need far longer, the USDA instructions also show far longer times for heat treatments, and shorter intervals between them than more textbook instructions or "teks", which are usually based on the incorrectly transcribed textbooks.


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
http://www.alohaecowas.com/diversified-agriculture-part1.html

It was written for third world mushroom growing, but is applicable everywhere.  Scroll down in the article to look at the charts comparing steam, soap, lime, and bleach pasteurization and the differences in yield from each.
RR




relevant in that link, talking of straw of course and not grains
Quote:

A second method of substrate conditioning used was the natural fermentation of one bale of wheat straw (approx. 30 kgs) in water. The straw was soaked in barrels containing 200L of clean tap water for seven days with no other substances added. The straw was removed from the barrels after seven days and placed on racks for two hours, covered with newspaper in order to drain excess water and allow outgassing and aeration of the straw. As can be imagined, after soaking this straw for seven days in the sun it was a stinky, sticky mess, but actually had a fairly low microorganism load due to exhaustion of the simple sugars and other readily utilizable food sources upon which the first generation of decay organisms depend. This fermented straw was layered with spawn (454 g bottle) in four plastic bags for each test strain until a total weight for each bag was 2.73 kg (6 pounds). When the bags reached the proper weight, they were compressed by hand and tied off using segments of light metal wire. These bags were kept outside in the shade for two weeks of observation and then moved inside a climate controlled grow room. While this treatment method did produce edible mushrooms, it did not result in commercially viable quantities of mushrooms being produced. This method of substrate preparation is not very effective when compared to the other methods utilized in this trial, and the data on this treatment method is not shown in the results.




If you are worried about BE wasting of grains is obviously a big concern, many do not care much though and the loss may be acceptable depending on their own situation.

also strangely found a post bt RR suggesting fractional sterilization could be worthwhile for some, from 8.5 years ago. Usually you see wildly high rates of failure claimed by posters with no backup. As in other threads I would say a PC is the best bet, no doubt, I do have one. I am still interested in helping beginners or possibly people doing large amounts where it would be costly to get a PC/autocalve large enough. People might be put off starting at all if they have to invest a lot. If they can grow and see the benefits then they might decide to invest more.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I think fractional sterilization has a place in third world countries where they need to sterilize barrel loads of spawn cheaply over a wood fire. 

However, in developed countries where a pressure cooker can be had for $10 at Goodwill, Salvation Army, thrift shops, flea markets, garage sales, etc., I see no point.
RR



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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: blackout]
    #23870160 - 11/26/16 07:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Update on this -after putting in some agar I saw no growth after several days, this agar was old and as said possibly contaminated. I did a small G2G of popcorn grain into it and left it at the top, I did not want to mix it in as I thought contams were a definite risk and wanted to see if they only appeared on top.  It took a good while for the myc on the popcorn to take to the new grains. I have seen this before, going from one grain to another or even popcorn to popcorn at different moisture contents can have a long delay, it was also maybe just 60F average.

Mould grew at the top (not bacteria), and only at the top which I figure was either from the agar or the G2G which was also not that careful. What is promising is that there was absolutely no sign of contams lower down in the jar. I scooped out the top layers, added a little water and microwaved again. I have more dishes growing and will transfer into the jar when I am happy with it.

After rinsing the yeast off I did not add any gypsum which might have helped, presuming it might be a bit acidic. I could do some more and leave them inoculated and see how they do. 

I think it is worth testing more but I have now done more "intermittent sterilization" which defeats the aim of seeing if single steaming would work. However the majority of people seem to think intermittent/fractional sterilization has very little (like 1%) chance of working and so might equate it to a single steaming...

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: blackout]
    #28380295 - 06/30/23 03:15 PM (7 months, 27 days ago)

Ive heard recently that some are adding certain bacterias to their soaking grains for a few days and then PCing it, killing the bacteria but leaving these peptides or metabolites left by the bacteria that are healthy for the mycelium.

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: Glomus]
    #28382130 - 07/02/23 06:44 AM (7 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Glomus said:
Ive heard recently that some are adding certain bacterias to their soaking grains for a few days and then PCing it, killing the bacteria but leaving these peptides or metabolites left by the bacteria that are healthy for the mycelium.



This is something I would worry about if you're the best grower already. This is not the magic bullet for new people. Grain works great as is. If you already have the skills to get repeatable amazing results then maybe try this to see if it makes a lick of difference.

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: Glomus] * 1
    #28382136 - 07/02/23 06:49 AM (7 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Glomus said:
Ive heard recently that some are adding certain bacterias to their soaking grains for a few days and then PCing it, killing the bacteria but leaving these peptides or metabolites left by the bacteria that are healthy for the mycelium.




Sick necro :takingnotes:

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Re: Soaking grain in water with yeast & sugar to hydrate for 15 days [Re: Glomus]
    #28382462 - 07/02/23 11:22 AM (7 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Glomus said:
Ive heard recently that some are adding certain bacterias to their soaking grains for a few days and then PCing it, killing the bacteria but leaving these peptides or metabolites left by the bacteria that are healthy for the mycelium.




That is an interesting idea, but if there is anything to it then it seems like it would be better to supplement the soaking water with specific chemicals. That way you know exactly what you are introducing and you can refine the process. If you rely on bacterial growth you won't know exactly what you added and it will be hard to recreate the same conditions.

It doesn't seem crazy to me that some kind of nutritional supplement in the soaking water might help. I guess you could spike the jars with powdered supplements too. It would be easy to test, though tedious.


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