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Offlinepsilly the kid
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has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation.
    #23858125 - 11/22/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I've only been able to achieve this through one meditation technique.and only a couple dozen times. what are your thoughts and expirences. no psychedelic help. weed and alcohol allowed as is any non psychedelic/entactogen/dissociative.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858152 - 11/22/16 05:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, it is a byproduct, and a distraction and should be ignored for the most part.

The only part it has in meditation practice is if you are cultivating a Kasina.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (11/22/16 05:42 PM)


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23858160 - 11/22/16 05:42 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

even if they are coherent visions?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858164 - 11/22/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I find they are in par with the spirit world and is your spirit world.  Not nearly as intense as a psycadelic yet I find it a release.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858168 - 11/22/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Gotama the Monk was tempted with many visions while he sat till he was extinguished and so released and unbinded.


This is a beginners trap.

But maybe you follow another set of instructions and training or go your own way .


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Edited by The Blind Ass (11/22/16 05:46 PM)


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858170 - 11/22/16 05:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I meditate as part of my chaos magical rituals. so that I can clear my mind faster so I guess it does make sense to ignore them.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858195 - 11/22/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

This is where the old saying in Zen comes into play:  If you see the Buddha , kill him.

( as in referring to visions in meditation, it is mara in disguise , metaphorically speaking, or also in referring to Idol worship, ie: mere ritualism and statues of buddha etc)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23858197 - 11/22/16 06:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

maybe Ignore is not the right word, but not to get entangled, or fall under the spell of the vision, like not to be enchanted, or spell bound by it.


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23858234 - 11/22/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

don't lose my intent is kinda what your getting at


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858250 - 11/22/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

imagine your going to get some medicine for your sick wife, and you have to walk across the city and along the way you get distracted and start following a carnival show instead of going for the medicine for the wife you pledged to love in sickness and in health forever till death... imagine your taking in the great wonderful magical like qualities of the carnival seeing AMAZING things that awe you and make you feel like your in another world!... all the while your wife is in pain and sick and can barely move expecting you to return ! but you have fell for the side-show, for maras trap.  Meanwhile hours later than you had originally planned you finally get the medicine and run back home..



You come back home, and she has passed on.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858256 - 11/22/16 06:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The topic of seeing mental imagery is complex.

With weed once I imagine something it's already had an impact.  So separation and keeping a good vibe is crucial.  Not to go into a downward spiral.  But that is not the art I see when I am on some sort of fast.  Seeing art like images that have their own character.  I am separated and as long as I am not shocked I continue to see.  It's relaxing and it's fun.

Sometimes I lay on my back just to experience another world.  I might fall asleep and I might fall into death or some other spell.

There's nothing wrong with rich experience or enchantment.  As long as it doesn't feel dangerous.  Enlightenment might as well be love that does not waver at any experience.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23858276 - 11/22/16 06:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Its just the imagination.  Sometimes in deep concentration or absorption meditation or before or after sleep and other times the subconscious bleeds through into the waking state and appears as a Vision like a hypogagnic dream.  Dangerous?  It does not matter if it "feels safe" or dangerous, because it is not real, it is like a mirage, or echo, or a magic show, or a hologram.

The only thing it can do - if it happens during meditation - is detract you and ensnare you till you let it go and go back to the practice.  But even falling for it can deepen your practice.  Good to know a trick inside out, so the next time it takes on another form or appearance you know its the same gag but with a different Husk.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (11/22/16 06:33 PM)


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23858291 - 11/22/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

actually I see the world around me but only through one eye when this happens. the other eye is the one that sees the visions. sometimes it is hard to process the visions though.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858323 - 11/22/16 06:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If this is true, you may actually have Charles-Bonnet Syndrome.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23858328 - 11/22/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Please Look into it psilly the kid.  It is not life threatening to my knowledge but it would be good to get checked up on by a professional ok?

Thats a tale tell sign of Charles Bonnet Syndrome.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23858353 - 11/22/16 06:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Can be dangerous.  Sometimes people confuse fantasy, reality and desire.  This leads to negative consequences.  Seems to me to be the main problem of being human.


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23858380 - 11/22/16 07:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well it only happens during particularly intense group meditation.  so I should be good.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858761 - 11/22/16 09:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think there can be visions which come from your higher mind, which would be "authentic" visions - and these could contain a message or communicate meaningfully with you in some way - and then there is also the more common lower imagination at play. I don't think it's wise to make too big of a deal about visions - but at the same time I think they can be meaningful messages, at the very least to confirm you're on the right path. I also think it's easy to mistake imagination for visions, and the whole thing can get a bit convoluted.

it depends on your goal for meditating too - if it is to abide in your unborn original nature like in Buddhism, then in general they're considered distractions (though Tibetan Buddhism does make use of certain "pure visions" in the discovery of meditation techniques [sadhanas, terma] and also in the dream state [dreams of clarity]). if your purpose for meditating is for self-discovery on a more relative personal level then I think visionary experiences could be quite meaningful and beneficial, though I don't think seeking them out intentionally is wise :smile:


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: deff]
    #23858785 - 11/22/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

more for clearing my mind of distractions before performing a ritual.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: deff]
    #23858793 - 11/22/16 09:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If it really is just one eye, or you have partial blindness and your seeing things you may actually have charles bonnet syndrome.  Check it out.  alteast thats based off what you shared already.


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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858799 - 11/22/16 09:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

then I think it depends on if the visions act as distractions :smile:


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: deff]
    #23858850 - 11/22/16 09:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I don't have partial blindness I just concentrate so hard on what im seeing with one eye that I don't process the visual stimuli from the other. its at that point that I get OEVs.


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858864 - 11/22/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

What you're describing is still a form of sensory deprivation, as it is with eyes shut. It's similar to stuff like this, just a different manifestation:

https://mindhacks.com/2010/09/18/the-strange-face-in-the-mirror-illusion/


Or this:




Or even this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_effect


That the eyes are open or shut isn't necessarily a different phenomena, just takes different forms with the limited sensory input of eyes being open and focusing on one thing as opposed to closed eyes focusing on the darkness. I guess what I'm trying to say is that whether it's eyes open or eyes shut, the mechanism is largely going to be the same.


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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23858872 - 11/22/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Who cares if anyone has achieved them

They don't have anything to do with you

All this crap people spew from established religions really makes me wanna puke

Find out for yourself

Make your own decisions based on your personal experience

Groups are bullshit

Teachers are bullshit

Advice is bullshit

Anything anybody says is bullshit with regard to you because it's not your personal truth

Anybody who quotes "teachers" or "recognized authorities" or "gurus" or "philosophers" or anybody else is full of shit

People who give you medical advice are full of shit

Everybody besides YOU is basically worthless, that's what I'm getting at


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: 100_the_cat]
    #23858893 - 11/22/16 10:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't try to connect this with religion just wanted expirences and shit. I like learning a bout different people .


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: 100_the_cat]
    #23858975 - 11/22/16 10:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

100_the_cat said:
Who cares if anyone has achieved them

They don't have anything to do with you

All this crap people spew from established religions really makes me wanna puke

Find out for yourself

Make your own decisions based on your personal experience

Groups are bullshit

Teachers are bullshit

Advice is bullshit

Anything anybody says is bullshit with regard to you because it's not your personal truth

Anybody who quotes "teachers" or "recognized authorities" or "gurus" or "philosophers" or anybody else is full of shit

People who give you medical advice are full of shit

Everybody besides YOU is basically worthless, that's what I'm getting at




then you are also full of shit.  you dont discredit human history and all our traditions and wisdom and practices with one post el gato.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (11/22/16 11:14 PM)


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #23858990 - 11/22/16 10:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I thought that sounded like advice or a lesson I'm just not learning it. if you are human then yes your expirences are relevant to me otherwise it would be pointless to share in any form with anybody.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23860185 - 11/23/16 10:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's hard to forget religious lessons.  They have a lot of subconscious pull.  I just don't expect them to have a lot of weight in a conversation.


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #23860263 - 11/23/16 10:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

even just talking differences in Judaic religions is spanning  huge concepts and ideas. I like to think that if there is a way to integrate positive parts of other religions into your psyche no matter who you are a great and wise teacher is still a great teacher.


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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23861809 - 11/23/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Quote:

100_the_cat said:
Who cares if anyone has achieved them

They don't have anything to do with you

All this crap people spew from established religions really makes me wanna puke

Find out for yourself

Make your own decisions based on your personal experience

Groups are bullshit

Teachers are bullshit

Advice is bullshit

Anything anybody says is bullshit with regard to you because it's not your personal truth

Anybody who quotes "teachers" or "recognized authorities" or "gurus" or "philosophers" or anybody else is full of shit

People who give you medical advice are full of shit

Everybody besides YOU is basically worthless, that's what I'm getting at




then you are also full of shit.  you dont discredit human history and all our traditions and wisdom and practices with one post el gato.




The whole point is for OP to listen to self rather than other

You're just being a crybaby

And yes, I can discredit everything in one post

I already did


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Offlinepsilly the kid
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: 100_the_cat]
    #23861817 - 11/23/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

bad co2 to the topic at hand. I was going to ask how you usually achieve such a state.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: psilly the kid]
    #23861828 - 11/23/16 08:12 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Vihāra Sutta: Dwellings (2)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2011
"Monks, I will teach you the nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And what, monks, are the nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments?

[1] "Wherever sensual resolves cease and those who repeatedly are stopping sensual resolves dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where do sensual resolves cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping sensual resolves dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. That is where sensual resolves cease, and where those who repeatedly are stopping sensual resolves dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[2] "Wherever directed thoughts & evaluations cease and those who repeatedly are stopping directed thoughts & evaluations dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where do directed thoughts & evaluations cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping directed thoughts & evaluations dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. That is where directed thoughts & evaluations cease, and where those who repeatedly are stopping directed thoughts & evaluations dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[3] "Wherever rapture ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping rapture dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does rapture cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping rapture dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the fading of rapture, remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare, "Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding." That is where rapture ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping rapture dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[4] "Wherever the pleasure of equanimity[1] ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the pleasure of equanimity dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the pleasure of equanimity cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the pleasure of equanimity dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhāna: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. That is where the pleasure of equanimity ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the pleasure of equanimity dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[5] "Wherever the perception of form ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of form dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of form cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of form dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, (perceiving,) "Infinite space," enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. That is where the perception of form ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of form dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[6] "Wherever the perception of the infinitude of space ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of space dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of the infinitude of space cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of space dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, (perceiving,) "Infinite consciousness," enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. That is where the perception of the infinitude of space ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of space dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[7] "Wherever the perception of the infinitude of consciousness ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of consciousness dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of the infinitude of consciousness cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of consciousness dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, (perceiving,) "There is nothing," enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. That is where the perception of the infinitude of consciousness ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the infinitude of consciousness dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[8] "Wherever the perception of nothingness ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of nothingness dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of nothingness cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of nothingness dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. That is where the perception of nothingness ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of nothingness dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

[9] "Wherever the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ceases and those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception dwell: Surely, I tell you, by that factor those venerable ones are free from hunger, unbound, having crossed over & gone to the far shore.

"Now if someone should say, 'Where does the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception cease? And where do those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception dwell? I don't know that; I don't see that,' he should be told, 'There is the case, friend, where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling.[2] That is where the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ceases, and where those who repeatedly are stopping the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception dwell.' Surely, a person without guile or deceit, (saying,) 'Very good,' would delight in & approve of that statement. Delighting in & approving of that statement, paying homage & raising his hands palm-to-palm over his heart, he would honor it.

"These, monks, are the nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments."

Note

1.
In AN 9.34, the "affliction" of the third jhāna that is abandoned in the fourth jhāna is said to be equanimity. However, the fourth jhāna also contains equanimity. Thus the statement in this sutta — that the pleasure of equanimity is abandoned in the fourth jhāna — seems more consistent with the fourth jhāna as described in the standard formula. AN 9.42 is in agreement with this sutta on this point.
2.
Notice that this description of the cessation of perception & feeling lacks the statement often added in passages where this attainment is described: "and, having seen [that] with discernment, his effluents are completely ended."


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Invisible100_the_cat
Female
Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 315
Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23862408 - 11/24/16 01:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I've been learning that there is no point in sharing

It's just air

Nobody can change anything

It's like watching a tv show

It's impossible to really get through to anyone, we're just entertainment for each other while passing the time

And it's not very exciting entertainment either

It's like watching paint dry

Everybody and everything is a letdown


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,659
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: has any one else achieved intense OEVs though meditation. [Re: 100_the_cat]
    #23864215 - 11/24/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The cate


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