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OfflineChakra Shock
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Registered: 02/22/13
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Loc: The Enterprise
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Prisoner#1] * 3
    #23870735 - 11/26/16 10:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
Yeah but doesn't this one violate a treaty of some sort?






it doesnt cross into the reservation




it doesn't cross into the reservation on the lands post abrogation of the original treaty. The only reason this pipeline is possible where it is is due to older infractions of the 1851 reservation, which was based on a treaty, not a negotiable, malleable distinction of boundaries.

In the first 38 years of the treaty, the Sioux had already begun to construct communities on that land, and now the pipeline crosses a mile outside of the 'current' reservation, over land which has culturally relevant and historic sites on it for the Sioux, like burial mounds. The pipeline goes directly over burial sites, which were perfectly acceptable where they were placed, seeing as that was the land which was originally decreed as being Sioux land.

So by saying it doesn't "cross into the reservation", you're sympathizing with the U.S. government's original violation of the ft. laramie treaty and abuse of the native people from countless infractions of a similar nature.

This is one more example of how the U.S. government doesn't give a fuck about how they treat the indigenous people, but it is also an opportunity to begin to change that current of history.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
Don't do drugs (Without me)


Registered: 04/27/11
Posts: 3,753
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23870749 - 11/26/16 10:51 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
Yeah but doesn't this one violate a treaty of some sort?




Yes and no, the treaty they cite was drawn up over 150 years ago, since then, the lines have been redrawn, currently, the pipeline does not cross onto reservation,

***if it was built 150 years ago, it would have :lol:




Where do you draw the line?  If 50 years from now they want to do shit on the land that is currently considered protected under the treaty, would you still say (to paraphrase) "No biggie"


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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OfflineChakra Shock
Waxing Prophetic


Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 2,514
Loc: The Enterprise
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #23870768 - 11/26/16 10:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah just because something has been going on for a long time does not make it okay.

It's not like the Sioux and the U.S. government got together and redrew the treaty lines peacefully, those lands were continuously invaded by colonial americans, to the point that the reservations grew smaller and smaller.

Yet again, this pipeline is only outside of the reservation due to abrogations of the original treaty. If a government does not uphold the treaties to which it has bound itself, then it has lost all credibility as being trustworthy, and can no longer expect any other nation to honor the treaties which they make with said government.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #23870771 - 11/26/16 11:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

American Indians have many more protections today than they did even 50 years ago, nowadays it would be virtually imposble to violate any current treaty or boundry

***its much easier to erase our border with Mexico :lol:


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OfflineChakra Shock
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Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 2,514
Loc: The Enterprise
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: hostileuniverse] * 2
    #23870776 - 11/26/16 11:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

How can we say that 1st Nations People have more protections now when a pipeline can be built a mile away from a reservation, on lands which were stolen from the original reservation, over historically relevant sites, and in a spot which, if it bursts, could completely destroy their only source of clean drinking water?

And when they try to make it known that this is not okay, that this is in the tradition of centuries of abuse and oppression, they are sprayed with water cannons in 27 degree weather, shot with rubber bullets, maced, beaten and sprayed with tear gas.

And you say they are protected? Tell me, how are they protected from all of this?


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
Don't do drugs (Without me)


Registered: 04/27/11
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23870786 - 11/26/16 11:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ehhhhh it's my understanding the pipeline runs through a water source that feeds into the reservation.  Stop polluting the fucking environment dammit.  Respect the fucking Earth.

The muslim states already have so much money from oil it is already too late to overcome the obvious colonization that is occurring and will continue to occur.  We had our chance to wake up and live harmoniously with the world around us.  We chose comfort.  The future is going to be bleak and then reset, and then the distant future will look back on this time in history as a very sad time.

The sad part is, Islam doesn't try to preserve the host nation at all.  They castrate their slaves and demolish any history that existed before them.


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Chakra Shock] * 1
    #23870790 - 11/26/16 11:12 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
How can we say that 1st Nations People have more protections now when a pipeline can be built a mile away from a reservation, on lands which were stolen from the original reservation, over historically relevant sites, and in a spot which, if it bursts, could completely destroy their only source of clean drinking water?


And you say they are protected? Tell me, how are they protected from all of this?




Would you like us all to go back to Europe? Because pretty much every treaty has been violated

***europe is out anyway, they are only accepting Muslims :shrug:

^^^maybe we can all go to Mexico?


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OfflineChakra Shock
Waxing Prophetic


Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 2,514
Loc: The Enterprise
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23870798 - 11/26/16 11:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Rofl no dude we should not go back to Europe, but at least here this pipeline should be redrawn. I mean ffs, they're going to make immense profits off of it anyways, delaying completion for reconstruction is the least they can do in the face of the history that the Native Americans have had to face.

It's like cutting in line in front of someone who was just in a car accident at the hospital because you have a cold, and then saying 'sorry! I know you're bleeding out but I really, really hate having a cough!'

But Mr.BYM is sayin some bleak words of prophecy. Can we really say that the future is so bleak?


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Chakra Shock] * 1
    #23870815 - 11/26/16 11:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
Rofl no dude we should not go back to Europe, but at least here this pipeline should be redrawn. I mean ffs, they're going to make immense profits off of it anyways, delaying completion for reconstruction is the least they can do in the face of the history that the Native Americans have had to face.

It's like cutting in line in front of someone who was just in a car accident at the hospital because you have a cold, and then saying 'sorry! I know you're bleeding out but I really, really hate having a cough!'

But Mr.BYM is sayin some bleak words of prophecy. Can we really say that the future is so bleak?




Did you know the natives were gonna allow it to actully cross the reservation? They demanded 50 million for the easement, DAPL offered 20, if wasn't good enough, and now they're protesting

It's all BS And they are only feeding into the left wing anti oil zealots around the US

***The whole thing is ridiculous


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OfflineChakra Shock
Waxing Prophetic


Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 2,514
Loc: The Enterprise
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: hostileuniverse] * 2
    #23870820 - 11/26/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Dude native americans are impoverished af and their school systems are completely run down. So many of them drink because of the destitution their communities are in. Asking 50 million in compensation for rights to cross their land doesn't strike me as being unprincipled.

Besides, the treaty explicitly stated that anyone who wanted to live there or build there outside of the Sioux community could only do so with their consent after holding counsel with them. So if they said no deal, if the U.S. government was going to ratify the original treaty, then that's that, redraw the pipe.

It's a half a mile outside of their reservation, it's just a slap in the face.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Registered: 04/27/11
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Chakra Shock] * 1
    #23870822 - 11/26/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It is cyclical.  I've seen some weird shit during my journeys.  I wish it weren't this way, but we live out of balance and balance will always find it's way. 

Cultural conditioning is already happening, and history repeats itself.  Many are in denial of history in hopes that they can control reality.  That denial will be the destruction.  People worship money.

I try to be optimistic, but I've had too many visions come true (Maybe just cases of confirmation bias) :shrug:


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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OfflineChakra Shock
Waxing Prophetic


Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 2,514
Loc: The Enterprise
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #23870829 - 11/26/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe i'm just a naive optimist, but I believe that humanity is good. Even if these times travel more deeply into the dark, there will be a dawn, eventually.

Fascinating perspective though, I'm gonna give more thought to it and maybe I'll be able to discuss it more in depth soon, the general projection of events into the future.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #23870837 - 11/26/16 11:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

When I consider that the Environmental Protection Agency conspired to destroy a river for money, then my optimism is shattered by realism.

I personally think humans will always be here, but I don't think technology as we currently know it is sustainable.

People work in slave conditions just so we can have the tech we do.  There is a floating island of garbage the size of Texas in the pacific, and more in the other oceans.

IDK I've just seen some strange things, including Islam taking over.  I was pretty out of touch with the real world when I saw these things, kind of living in my own incubated bubble away from stress.  I didn't even know of SJW's and shit like that.  I saw many things and I just don't understand how we can continue being wasteful without destroying ourselves.


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #23870891 - 11/27/16 12:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
Yeah but doesn't this one violate a treaty of some sort?






it doesnt cross into the reservation




it doesn't cross into the reservation on the lands post abrogation of the original treaty. The only reason this pipeline is possible where it is is due to older infractions of the 1851 reservation, which was based on a treaty, not a negotiable, malleable distinction of boundaries.





would you like to go ahead and start paying your share of the slave reparations?
post up the receipts when you do, we'd all love to see that, 40 acres and a mule
is what was promised so that's what you need to provide



Quote:

In the first 38 years of the treaty, the Sioux had already begun to construct communities on that land, and now the pipeline crosses a mile outside of the 'current' reservation, over land which has culturally relevant and historic sites on it for the Sioux, like burial mounds. The pipeline goes directly over burial sites, which were perfectly acceptable where they were placed, seeing as that was the land which was originally decreed as being Sioux land.





and here we are 170 years later with an oil pipeline that isnt crossing  this
reservation. they had 2 years to air any issues they had but they refused to deal
with the corps of engineers on anything even though they had just completed some
deals that improved their water quality and reliability just 10 years ago with the
very same corps of engineers



Quote:

So by saying it doesn't "cross into the reservation", you're sympathizing with the U.S. government's original violation of the ft. laramie treaty and abuse of the native people from countless infractions of a similar nature.





um no, by saying that I am stating a fact. it does not cross the reservation's boundaries


Quote:

This is one more example of how the U.S. government doesn't give a fuck about how they treat the indigenous people, but it is also an opportunity to begin to change that current of history.





you got your share of the slave reparations paid yet?

they reside on over 2 million acres, I dont have 2 million acres


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #23870893 - 11/27/16 12:10 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

robot asteroid mining?
It might allow us to continue being wasteful if we start working on developing the tech now.
we still gotta stop releasing fossil carbon though.


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #23870894 - 11/27/16 12:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
Dude native americans are impoverished af and their school systems are completely run down. So many of them drink because of the destitution their communities are in. Asking 50 million in compensation for rights to cross their land doesn't strike me as being unprincipled.




so there's the real issue. they're poor and they want to be rich. they'll have a whopping $2700 for each of them


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OfflineChakra Shock
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Registered: 02/22/13
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23870920 - 11/27/16 12:29 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Slavery reparations and honoring timeless treaties which are meant to stand to this day are a false equivalency, and it shows the weakness and fallibility of your argument that you have to grasp at straws like that.

It's actually such a poor analogy that one could call it a red herring, like much of what you have thrown out as premises in your argument against the protesters.

The only similarity is that both black people and native americans have been oppressed by the united states government. The difference here is that the United States government is continuously ignoring and abrogating the 1851 treaty, along with others. That is an ongoing infraction of rights, where as slavery in and of itself is quite illegal and abolished. Yes, the ramifications remain, but this pipeline is not a ramification of a past injustice, it is one and the same with the ongoing injustice which caused the initial disregard of the treaty. A nation that can not honor its treaties is inherently untrustworthy.

Not only that, but the pipeline passes through their burial mounds, which violates the national historic preservation act.

This pipeline is a moronically planned and executed endeavor that has caused untold amounts of strife.

edit: basically what you asked me is 'oh look at that injustice, so should the U.S. government also try to heal the damages it has done in the past due to all the other bullshit and oppression which it has caused?!' as if that is a ridiculous notion. Fucking yes, there should be as much effort as possible put into healing the wounds of the past of the U.S..


Edited by Chakra Shock (11/27/16 12:37 AM)


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23870922 - 11/27/16 12:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
When I consider that the Environmental Protection Agency conspired to destroy a river for money, then my optimism is shattered by realism.




Which river?


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
Dude native americans are impoverished af and their school systems are completely run down. So many of them drink because of the destitution their communities are in. Asking 50 million in compensation for rights to cross their land doesn't strike me as being unprincipled.




so there's the real issue. they're poor and they want to be rich. they'll have a whopping $2700 for each of them




Amish people can farm to maintain their lifestyle. We shoved most Native Americans in the shittiest barest lannd the country has to offer. These aren't your typical "they're poor cuz their lazy" people. They had values and they stuck with them and they got fucked over generation after generation to the point where alot of them are just as fucked up an corrupted as the rest of the country. The ones that don't make fortunes from casinos are full of alcoholics and people barely skating by, often by selling "heritage" items most Americans are too stupid to realize were made in a factory.


I don't know if I could say they deserve better but we've fucked them over enough. We've fucked the environment over enough too.

The pipeline won't encourage energy independence. It will encourage oil dependence.


--------------------
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23870946 - 11/27/16 12:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
Dude native americans are impoverished af and their school systems are completely run down. So many of them drink because of the destitution their communities are in. Asking 50 million in compensation for rights to cross their land doesn't strike me as being unprincipled.




so there's the real issue. they're poor and they want to be rich. they'll have a whopping $2700 for each of them




Amish people can farm to maintain their lifestyle. We shoved most Native Americans in the shittiest barest lannd the country has to offer. These aren't your typical "they're poor cuz their lazy" people. They had values and they stuck with them and they got fucked over generation after generation to the point where alot of them are just as fucked up an corrupted as the rest of the country. The ones that don't make fortunes from casinos are full of alcoholics and people barely skating by, often by selling "heritage" items most Americans are too stupid to realize were made in a factory.


I don't know if I could say they deserve better but we've fucked them over enough. We've fucked the environment over enough too.




I dont disagree that they've been fucked over over the last 400 years, the mohawk
walk steel, they're some of the best paid workers in the construction industry,
the bakken oil fields are just north of the reservation, there's no requirement
for the Sioux to live on the rez, they can earn $40-$50/hr working the oil fields,
they can earn $18/hr working the walmarts and fast food up there, the area is
booming because of the oil fields

and no, it's not just because of laziness that they;re poor. maybe in some cases,
they no longer live in a hunter/gatherer society, they're no longer nomadic, and
that's a part of their problem, the biggest part is racism, pride and tradition.
elders instill in them that it's better to be poor than to cooperate with whites
even though they are more than willing to do so when it's beneficial to them

most of the land that that reservation sits on is arable land, they could also farm


Quote:

The pipeline won't encourage energy independence. It will encourage oil dependence.





oil wont be going anywhere for a long time.


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Veterans are planning a 'deployment' to Standing Rock to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23871002 - 11/27/16 01:41 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

They don't want to lose their way of life. That's why I compared them to the Amish. But it's true, they kind of have and there's not really anything left to salvage.


I do wonder why they don't farm ND land. That is one of the few examples I could think of, corn grows well up there yes?


Though all things considered I wouldn't want to integrate with people that completely hated my kind and committed mass genocide and continued to take from us and treat us like shit even when they said they'd stop. Several times.
I've heard some pretty terrible stories about people that leave the reservations up to 50-60 years ago, before civil rights left a lasting impression. Maybe in another generation or two things will be different. Although I do hope it's not so much integration on their part and more provisions of trades on ours.

I say our and we but I am mixed blood, as alot of people are that are "the new natives" as weird as that sounds. I dunno. How long do you have to live in a place to be considered native to it?


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