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OfflineOlebramserud
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Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola??
    #23853332 - 11/21/16 05:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I did find more than 200 of these, and I was sure it was panaeolus cinctulus due to its habitiat(cowdung), the size(2)3-4cm(6) and the black sporeprint. I know panaeolus ater/panaeolus fimicola also grows on dung and looks similar to p. cinctulus, but they more often grow in the springtime and are often smaller 1.5-2.5cm than p. cinctulus!??

I tried around 3-4 dried grams with only the same effect that i have got from 200 panaeolina foenicecii a couple of years ago. It feels like something is coming, an uplifting feeling, but then after 20-30 minutes the effect is fading away, then nothing.. :frown:

So what have I found here? Can it be p. fimicola or is it some other inactive panaeolus?   

Habitat:
europe, pasture land, on cowdung

Gills:
greyish-black to brownish-Black

Stem:
3-8cm, hollow, light brown to reddish brown, white powder on the stem

Cap:
Diameter:2-6cm color: greyish, reddish, blackish, brownish etc

Spore print color:
Black!

Bruising:
no bruising(as far as i know)

Other information:
Scent of mushroom : shroomy , similar to psilocybe cubensis when dried but not that distinctive

Pics.
http://i.imgur.com/XISmyyv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZgkJc3X.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b32hkOt.jpg


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23853346 - 11/21/16 06:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Panaeolus cinctulus.

What country are you in?



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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Anglerfish]
    #23853352 - 11/21/16 06:07 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Schweden

And why p. cinctulus over p. fimicola?


Edited by Olebramserud (11/21/16 06:10 AM)


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23853355 - 11/21/16 06:10 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Olebramserud said:
Schweden




Figures, with your choice of nick. :stoned:

Did you find these just recently? Here in Norway they grow mostly in late spring and early summer.


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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Anglerfish]
    #23853356 - 11/21/16 06:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It was about 1 month ago. In the south of sweden

And why p. cinctulus over p. fimicola?


Edited by Olebramserud (11/21/16 06:29 AM)


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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23853726 - 11/21/16 09:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Can anyone else help me to figure out why this one seems to be inactive? I have never heard of inactive p. cinctulus before, is this even possible?


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23853765 - 11/21/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Olebramserud said:
Can anyone else help me to figure out why this one seems to be inactive? I have never heard of inactive p. cinctulus before, is this even possible?




Maybe not all of the ones you consumed were P. cinctulus, or maybe they're just low in alkaloids?
3-4 grams is perhaps too low a dose.

As you state in the original post, they are possible to confuse with other Panaeolus sp.
Looking closer at your pictures again, the first one looks like it could possibly be something else.
Hard to tell without close up shots.

I vaguely remember Finnish user Mikael also reported getting no effects from mushrooms he assumed to be P. cinctulus.

If you still have more of these, it could be worth increasing the dose to perhaps 6-7 grams. :shrug:
I never tried them though, so I'm probably not the right person to say.


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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Anglerfish]
    #23853825 - 11/21/16 10:20 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Hej.

I agree about this being Paneolus cinctulus. It doesn't look a bit like anything else, not even Panaeolus olivaceus.
From my experience, 5 dried grams has the same potency as 2-3g cubensis so I think it's weird you didn't felt more.
I guess you need to eat more! :wink:

Quote:

Figures, with your choice of nick.



He's our favorite Norwegian character in vintage movies. Him and Fleksnes! :wink:


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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #23853989 - 11/21/16 11:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Anglerfish:
Ah thanks for answering again.. I have some more, and like you said it is possible a mix of diffrent panaeolus species. So the potency per gram is maybe somewhat lower then if it was just P.cintulus in the bag. I'm gonna follow your advise and try a higher dose.

Knarkkorven:
I agree they does look like p.cinctulus and not p.olivaceus, but isn't p.fimicola a little bit of an cinctulus look alike?



The thing is that I don't have a scale, so I eyeballed what to me looked like 4-5grams. It could have been more like 3-4grams. And if say that 10-20 percent of the shrooms I've picked is some other panaeolus specie, then there is some loss there too.

But I do know what to feel even on very low dose cubensis or some other psilocybin containing mushroom, and this only felt exactly like an high dose of paneolina foenicecii like i described in my first post..

Now I'm thinking of making tea of the rest and estimate a dose around 10-20grams for me to try out next weekend...


Edited by Olebramserud (11/21/16 11:26 AM)


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23855561 - 11/21/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Olebramserud said:
Can anyone else help me to figure out why this one seems to be inactive? I have never heard of inactive p. cinctulus before, is this even possible?




Pan cints are very weak naturally.


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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23856667 - 11/22/16 09:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

isn't p.fimicola a little bit of an cinctulus look alike



Well, they are both Panaeolus... but the very dark color of P. fimicola caps is not shared by Cinctulus, therefore making them easy to tell apart.

Quote:

Now I'm thinking of making tea of the rest and estimate a dose around 10-20grams for me to try out next weekend...



Dried!? I think 10 is a strong dose. Don't do this if you aren't experienced.

Set and setting could have influenced your last trip, it sometimes have more effect on the intensity than the dose.

And without knowing you or your identification skills I also feel the need to ask you this: If you have this many mushrooms, are you sure all are of the same species? Those in your photos is P. cinctulus without doubt, but you might have a mixed collection anyway. Perhaps you ate some of the non actives? And the next time you will trip balls because you ate a very strong dose of the actives... :wink:


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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #23860244 - 11/23/16 10:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The shrooms in the pictures are not active :-( I drank Tea made from 20-30grams and I just felt me depressed. They all looked the same , maybe I picked one or two olivaceus, but I Do know how most  Of the other panaeolus species looks like, And therefore which ones to leave  behind..

I had more effect from just 10-15 Ps. Semilanceata Three weeks ago!

so the shrooms in the Pics are either p. Fimicola, inactive p. Cinctulus or some to me unknown panaeolus specie!


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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23860326 - 11/23/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Strange.


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Offlineambc
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23860356 - 11/23/16 11:25 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Olebramserud said:
20-30grams and I just felt me depressed. They all looked the same , maybe I picked one or two olivaceus,..





HAD YOU DRIED THE MUSHROOMS, OR WERE THEY STILL FRESH?


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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: ambc]
    #23860781 - 11/23/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Dried. I boiled them, poured out the water boiled them again and mixed with the first "batch" of water. Totaly 5dl black tea. First i drank 1dl waited 15min, than i drank 1.5 dl more. Still nothing, so Than i drank the rest. after 15 minutes maybe maybe i felt something. But then i just started to feel dissapointment and Sadness, this morning i still felt me depressed.. now im "normal" again


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Offlineambc
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23861042 - 11/23/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

if you were eyeballing dried mushrooms, it is impossible to know if you were anywhere near accurate. It also sounds like you are really overheating your mushrooms while making your tea, which would cause  degradation to at least some extent. If you use boiling water at all, you want to pour it over the mushrooms after removing water from heat. I would not use water that hot at all personally, if I were to make a tea.


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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: ambc]
    #23861140 - 11/23/16 04:08 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I have Been drinking mushroom-Tea for ten years and always with very good result. And even if there were 50procent loss from heat and if the eyeballed dose were half Of what i think IT was i still have consumed about 5g..


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23862446 - 11/24/16 02:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Check the pictures in the following links. I think they look quite similar to your find:

http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/hongos/Panaeolus-subfirmus-P.-Karst.-1889-img3770.html

http://mycologie.catalogne.free.fr/ImagesPhotoJuin08/Panaeolus_subfirmus_2.jpg

I'll have to admit I wouldn't manage to distinguish these from P. cinctulus in the field.
If these are what you actually found, it would explain why you didn't feel anything.

I can't find any good description of P. subfirmus, but this Swedish wiki article says "arten är reproducerande i Sverige":

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panaeolus_subfirmus


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OfflineOlebramserud
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Anglerfish]
    #23862460 - 11/24/16 02:25 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yep, they look similar to the shrooms I Picked and ate.. Have never seen Pics of that specie before.. Is this one rare or more common?f


Edited by Olebramserud (11/24/16 02:26 AM)


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: Olebramserud]
    #23862467 - 11/24/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Olebramserud said:
Is this one rare or more common?f




Well, hard to say, but thinking that people might call it P. cinctulus from appearance it is possibly
an overlooked species.


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OfflineWhyDidiDoThis
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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: ambc]
    #23862475 - 11/24/16 02:42 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ambc said:
Quote:

Olebramserud said:
20-30grams and I just felt me depressed. They all looked the same , maybe I picked one or two olivaceus,..





HAD YOU DRIED THE MUSHROOMS, OR WERE THEY STILL FRESH?



my breif experience with picking Cincts and LOTS of P. Accumantis
I've onely felt effects from them fresh.


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Re: Inactive P. cinctulus or P. fimicola?? [Re: WhyDidiDoThis]
    #23863184 - 11/24/16 10:22 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's apparently a rare species found mostly in Northern Europe. I have seen it being mentioned before, but haven't really researched it. Now when I think about it, I believe I have seen it once growing together with P. cinctulus in my old horse dung piles. Didn't know what it was at that time (6 years ago) but noticed that they had colors more towards olivaceus than cinctulus.

Quote:

Panaeolus subfirmus vokser på gødning eller gødningspåvirket jord. Den er siden 2005 fundet på en række kyst- eller sønære lokaliteter. Den er tilsyneladende nyindvandret og under spredning i Danmark.
...
Udbredelse: Panaeolus subfirmus er kendt fra Storbritannien, Holland, Danmark, Sverige og Finland. Den er anført på den nationale rødliste i Holland (Arnolds & van Ommering 1996).

http://svampe.databasen.org/taxon/45694




And here's a pdf describing it:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269518375_Panaeolus_Subfirmus_Agaricales_Basidiomycota_a_Species_New_for_Poland

So is it recognized as a species based only on microscopic features or do we have DNA as well? It would be interesting to get some to place it on the phylogenetic tree...


Edited by knarkkorven (11/24/16 10:57 AM)


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