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ElCharrua
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Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Chlorine for sterilization.
#23852876 - 11/20/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Stamets, on GGMM, mentions that using chlorinated water to prepare grain spawn does not produce good results. My experience is exactly the opposite, I put 5 mL of Clorox (regular) on every half-gallon jar.
Chlorine has two positive characteristics: one, it's a powerful disinfectant, just 5 PPM kill bacteria and mold. At the concentration I use (about 1 %, or 50,000 PPM) the grain is probably sterile even before heating it. Two, chlorine has a very low boiling point, so at the temperatures achieved during sterilization all the chlorine will be gone after the run, while treating bacteria and molds to superheated chlorine gas, a microorganism's equivalent of hell.
Even the times when my inoculation was a bust and no growth happened, the jars remained for months without ever showing contamination.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
Edited by bodhisatta (07/20/17 12:52 PM)
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bezevo
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23852989 - 11/20/16 11:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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check your brewing store for StarSan .. a great food grade sanitizer , very safe easy to use.
not sure if this would work for your purpose . but its awesome for sterilizing ,jars bottles tools ect
-------------------- I GROW CACTUS
Edited by bezevo (11/20/16 11:49 PM)
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drake89
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bezevo]
#23853463 - 11/21/16 07:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah, no...
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: drake89]
#23853568 - 11/21/16 08:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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First of all 1% is 10,000 ppm 50k ppm is 5%....
Bleach sanitizes not sterilise. Besides the inside of grain is what needs to be treated the outside being clean doesn't save you
And youre plain dead wrong about chlorine all boiling off
As to the second poster. Star San is fucking garbage. It is only for homebrewers. It has piss poor activity on yeast and molds and is an ok sanitizer against gram negatives. It's DDBSA and phosphoric acid. Widely regarded as an amateur sanitizer for noob brewers. Star San has no place in actual brewing let alone any where in mushroom growing
Star San barely is a sanitizer it absolutely does not sterilize anything Likewise chlorine is a sanitizer it does not sterilize anything
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ElCharrua
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Registered: 11/20/16
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Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23855900 - 11/21/16 10:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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You're right about the concentration: 5 mL in 500 mL is 1%, or 10,000 PPM.
The inside of the grain is sterile, microorganisms live on the surface. In any case, the chlorine complements heat sterilization, not replaces it.
"Sterilization is using chemicals, temperature, gas and/or pressure to kill or inactivate all disease-causing bacteria, spores, fungi and viruses." Last time I checked, chlorine is a chemical.
In what do you base your comment that chlorine survives 1 hour at 15 PSI? Just boiling tap water for a few minutes eliminates the chlorine.
Edited by ElCharrua (11/21/16 10:46 PM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23856088 - 11/22/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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 You must be trolling
Chemicals do not sterilize. Sterilization isn't what they teach most people in science classes.
There's different chlorine molecules like chloramine you cannot boil out as easily. In a trapped system you cannot boil it off any way.
Easily put you didn't find out some new way of doing things. You just thought of the same thing most people who failed science class did
Edited by bodhisatta (11/22/16 12:35 AM)
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ElCharrua
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23856414 - 11/22/16 07:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, I'm not trolling. I'm sharing a method that has served me very well for many years. My sterilization technique using chlorine plus heat has batted 1.000, even though I don't soak or boil the grains.
Please check your facts: Clorox does not contain chloramine, so it IS easily evaporated.
You are proof that even on a Forum dedicated to entheogens there are people who cannot think outside of the box.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua] 1
#23856521 - 11/22/16 08:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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 If we didn't think out of the box there would be no progress
Chloramine is formed when chlorine in bleach reacts with organic material like well grains....
Endospores are embedded in the endosperm and not just on the surface. hence why we can't sterilise grain in 15 minutes at 15 psi like we can with liquids.
the USDA discounted hypochlorite surface sanitation of grains because of many reasons, the load of bacteria uses up the halogen quickly, contact with the chemical agent doesn't happen to all bacteria,molds,spores there's cracks crevices and even things like biofilms IE peptidoglycan layers that prevent contact.
Edited by bodhisatta (11/22/16 11:07 AM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23856540 - 11/22/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Also you say you use 50,000 ppm or about 1% neither of which make sense
If I recall Clorox brand is 5.25% free chlorine by volume
So your pure bottle of bleach is 52,500 ppm And say you use 1% clorox into water Then you have ~525ppm once diluted
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drake89
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23857277 - 11/22/16 12:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ElCharrua said: No, I'm not trolling. I'm sharing a method that has served me very well for many years. My sterilization technique using chlorine plus heat has batted 1.000, even though I don't soak or boil the grains.
Please check your facts: Clorox does not contain chloramine, so it IS easily evaporated.
You are proof that even on a Forum dedicated to entheogens there are people who cannot think outside of the box.
15 psi also has a 100% success rate so, what is your point?
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waleedss
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: drake89]
#23877605 - 11/29/16 08:59 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bleach,h2o2,ozone and UV are good for outer surface and have nothing to do with inner spores.
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ElCharrua
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Registered: 11/20/16
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Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: waleedss]
#23885635 - 12/01/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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In any case, adding Clorox has never affected negatively subsequent growth, so worst case scenario is that I'm wasting a teaspoon of Clorox per half-gallon jar.
For those who have contam problems after the usual 15 PSI for 1 hour, it's worth trying. It's certainly simpler than soak overnight or boil the grains.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23885665 - 12/01/16 08:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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the usual is 15 psi for 1.5 hours MINIMUM for quart sized jars of grains. I do 2-2.5 hours at 18PSI with grain jars.
if you do grain bags you may need to go 3+ hours.
you likely will have problems if you only do 1 hour at 15psi with grain spawn.
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krypto2000
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23886958 - 12/02/16 09:19 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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For those who have contaminant problems at 15psi for 1 hour I suggest 15 psi at an hour and a half :faceplam:. Bleach is a bad idea on so many levels. As others have said it's a closed system so your bleach isn't going to all boil off. That's likely why sometimes you have jars with no growth is bc the bleach stalls the myciliums growth. Best case your bleach does nothing. Worse case it inhibits the growth making them grow slower and then weaker when you do spawn them resulting in less fruits and an easier chance for competition to move in. Do not do this.
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ElCharrua
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Registered: 11/20/16
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: krypto2000]
#23887448 - 12/02/16 12:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Krypto, the only time I had growth problems was when I used syringes that were over a year ole.
Clorox has a very characteristic smell, one can smell it in tap water, that maxes out at 4 PPM. I can assure you there's no chlorine smell on my grains.
Again, I have done this for years, and I can assure you that there have been no negative consequences. Look, I'm not long on Clorox futures, just sharing something that has worked for me.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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krypto2000
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23887739 - 12/02/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well maybe so, but do you think the bleach actually has anything to do with it? If you pc properly then they're sterile bleach or no bleach. If I pced improperly I simply wouls not trust the spawn to use, again regardless if there is bleach in there.
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. *DELETED* [Re: bodhisatta]
#23888571 - 12/02/16 07:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by amidogen
Reason for deletion: .
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: amidogen]
#23888835 - 12/02/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Acid anionic sanitizers suck. The DDBSA does the killing the pH enables it. Many people assume it's the pH that does the killing. However yeast can be acid washed with phosphoric to 1.8 and lives just fine. Goes to show.
I would use a halogen based like iodine based. It does make hoses and plastic take a orange yellow color but interesting it is clogging uo those surfaces on a micro level making them easier to sanitize in the future.
Of course peroxyacetic sanitizer is best. Sometimes sold as an acid final rinse. It nearly sterilises surfaces like stainless. And as a no Rinse sanitizer I feel more safe about residual stuff from PAA than any halogen.
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Archaic
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23889915 - 12/03/16 08:29 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cool, my tap water reeks of bleach so maybe I should just use that instead of distilled? :P
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: Archaic]
#23889919 - 12/03/16 08:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Municipal tap water is usually less than 1ppm. Use it for what? It's good for washing your hands and misting that's about it
Instead of distilled? You shouldn't be using distilled for anything other than filling lead acid batteries and making spore syringes.
Distilled has no place anywhere else in mushroom growing
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blackout


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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23890520 - 12/03/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ElCharrua said: Stamets, on GGMM, mentions that using chlorinated water to prepare grain spawn does not produce good results
what page is this in GGMM? I can see it mentioned in the agar section and preparing morel patches, but cannot see it in the grain spawn prep section.
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ElCharrua
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Registered: 11/20/16
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Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: blackout]
#23899605 - 12/06/16 11:13 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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It seems that Stamets has no problem using bleach...
From GGMM, page 190:
"THE BLEACH BATH METHOD
Similar to the hydrated lime method, but household bleach (5% sodium hypochlorite) is used as a disinfectant. I recommend adding 5-67 cups of household bleach to 50 gallons of water. A basketful of chopped wheat straw is immersed. The straw is kept submerged for a minimum of 4 and no more than 12 hours. The straw is immediately inoculated..."
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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krypto2000
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23899894 - 12/06/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Straw is not grain though. That sounds like he's inoculating the bulk substrate directly and growing/fruiting in the open air. That likewise sounds outdated at this point as grain -> bulk sub is a lot more fruitful/efficient than doing something such as that.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: krypto2000]
#23900154 - 12/06/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yea.... that's chemical pasteurization And a poor method for straw anyway
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drake89
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23900202 - 12/06/16 03:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ElCharrua said: It seems that Stamets has no problem using bleach...
From GGMM, page 190:
"THE BLEACH BATH METHOD
Similar to the hydrated lime method, but household bleach (5% sodium hypochlorite) is used as a disinfectant. I recommend adding 5-67 cups of household bleach to 50 gallons of water. A basketful of chopped wheat straw is immersed. The straw is kept submerged for a minimum of 4 and no more than 12 hours. The straw is immediately inoculated..."
nothing wrong with this but hydrated lime is much cheaper and stinks less.
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blackout


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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23903926 - 12/07/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ElCharrua said: It seems that Stamets has no problem using bleach...
From GGMM, page 190:
He does have a problem with bleach, I gave 2 instances in GGMM where he warns against it, but neither were about grain spawn, which you claimed in the first post. It would be an idea to edit your first post and say it is not mentioned, I would not delete your original statments as it might confuse future readers which people later responded to, just add a note at the end.
If he does recommend against it for grain I still want to see it. He is already misquoted/mistranscribed enough on this site more than enough, without adding new bogus claims to it.
In fact it would make people have more interest in your method, as if some believe Stamets think your method is advised against they might not bother reading any further. But he apparently has not advised against it like you claim.
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Eywa_devotee
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: blackout]
#23920827 - 12/12/16 07:55 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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What's going on is most of the chlorox becomes normal table salt, sodium chloride upon heating while the oxygen in it helps kill nasties. The fungus uses the chlorine from the chloride to make enzymes that it uses to digest bacteria and other stuff. If your water has just plain ole chlorine or bleach in it your'e fine, but if you have chloroamines in it that's a problem. That water disinfectant is so nasty it'll kill a friggin spider plant!
-------------------- "Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.
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Pinpapa
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Do you agree chloramines are produced when interacting with grain?If so that seems like a problem.
-------------------- "This isn't the right thing to do , so let's go"
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Adas
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: Pinpapa]
#23954545 - 12/24/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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You know what? I would be worried about my HEALTH in the first place. Chlorinated organic compounds are generally NOT fun to ingest. Chlorine can react with the grain in all sorts of ways. Mushrooms may grow on it, but they might pick up some of the chlorinated stuff and that might not be good for you.
Just to make a point. Your health is more important than healthy mushrooms.
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ElCharrua
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Registered: 11/20/16
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: Adas]
#24483222 - 07/14/17 04:19 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Darn, Boddisatha, isn't it a bitch when reality interferes with your pet theories? Some babies that survived Clorox.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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ElCharrua
Reverend

Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24483242 - 07/14/17 04:29 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bummer, the pic that I cannot upload shows happy, healthy dung-loving guys.
(But Ol' Boddi is going to say that I'm making this up, because it challenges his Clorox misconceptions...)
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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ElCharrua
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24483252 - 07/14/17 04:33 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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ElCharrua
Reverend

Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24483261 - 07/14/17 04:36 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, it's kinda convoluted to post pics here, but I never complain about something that costs nothing. The babies in the first pic look weird because the top of the fruiting chamber was covered, but they got light from the sides, so they grew sideways.
The icing on the Clorox cake is the jar on the right, I misplaced it and never fruited it. After two months, you can see that the cake has exuded a lot of water, but absolutely no contamination. How many of your cakes would last two months without contamination?
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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Adas
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24483287 - 07/14/17 04:44 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ElCharrua said: How many of your cakes would last two months without contamination?
Any cakes that are fully colonized and not bacterial would last. While the mycelium lives, it won't contaminate.
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ElCharrua
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: Adas]
#24483890 - 07/14/17 10:00 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Exactly. Hot chlorine gas is a bacterium or yeast's worst nightmare. And after an hour at 15 PSI, there none of it left. Win/win scenario.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24484028 - 07/14/17 11:07 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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this thread gave me an moment, and i wanted to see if mushrooms can get high. it turns out that they probably can't, but a person might get high(or feel some effect anyway) if they ate enough fruit flies. Evolutionary origins of the endocannabinoid system just thought i would share that with the class. carry on.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24486315 - 07/15/17 11:54 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ElCharrua said: Exactly. Hot chlorine gas is a bacterium or yeast's worst nightmare. And after an hour at 15 PSI, there none of it left. Win/win scenario.
If you're doing cakes at 15 psi for an hour that's what sterilized them.
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ElCharrua
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24496282 - 07/20/17 12:39 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes, obviously 15PSI for an hour sterilizes the grain...usually. However, even Stametz warns us that some grain has a very high contaminants load.
My point is (and I'm going to say it slowly) "There is no downside in using chlorine as an adjunct to heat sterilization. The chlorine is completely gone after an hour at 15PSI, in the meantime creating the worst possible environment for yeasts and bacteria."
I don't mind people not liking Clorox. I do mind people saying: "Don't even think of trying this, because I say so, and I'm an expert."
If a website dedicated to entheogens cannot keep an open mind, I don't know who can.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24496292 - 07/20/17 12:49 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post compelling results. Were very open minded to people with credibility. But post some bullshit methods and no results what do you expect
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afrekcan
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24496737 - 07/20/17 04:42 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some are open minded, but many are simply dogmatic parrots. There is a fine line between the two.
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drake89
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: afrekcan]
#24499472 - 07/21/17 07:07 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Putting bleach in a pressure cooker
A - stinky B- could pit an aluminum PC
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lucy1nthesky
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24531676 - 08/05/17 05:13 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Guy elcharrura (sorry if I misspelled) is right about using bleach water and an aid in sterilization. I do it too and it works. Also couldn't tell u how many jars I've saved that were contained, but after breaking off the good chunks of mycelium and dunking in bleach water. Then I use the bleach dunked mycellium to spawn to coir, and when I do that there is never a contam after I spawn it. So it works.
And yesterday someone closed a thread I wrote about this because they said it was "retarded" I mean I think not believeing something I haven't tried is "retarded" cuz this is scienc class, we're all still learning because there is always gonna be new methods. All these old heads just think they know everything and us newer guys can't possibly succeed with something that they failed on. Just my 2 c
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: lucy1nthesky] 1
#24531904 - 08/05/17 09:08 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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It didn't not work is what happened.
Cubes are survivor's chances are without the bleach your salvage attempt would have worked better lol.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#24531906 - 08/05/17 09:08 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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This thread has been closed.
Reason: This garbage doesn't need to confuse any more noobs
Bleach doesn't sterilize Bleach is a sanitiser only
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