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ElCharrua
Reverend

Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Chlorine for sterilization.
#23852876 - 11/20/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Stamets, on GGMM, mentions that using chlorinated water to prepare grain spawn does not produce good results. My experience is exactly the opposite, I put 5 mL of Clorox (regular) on every half-gallon jar.
Chlorine has two positive characteristics: one, it's a powerful disinfectant, just 5 PPM kill bacteria and mold. At the concentration I use (about 1 %, or 50,000 PPM) the grain is probably sterile even before heating it. Two, chlorine has a very low boiling point, so at the temperatures achieved during sterilization all the chlorine will be gone after the run, while treating bacteria and molds to superheated chlorine gas, a microorganism's equivalent of hell.
Even the times when my inoculation was a bust and no growth happened, the jars remained for months without ever showing contamination.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
Edited by bodhisatta (07/20/17 12:52 PM)
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bezevo
ACHUMA



Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 26
Loc: ZONE 5
Last seen: 5 days, 22 hours
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23852989 - 11/20/16 11:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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check your brewing store for StarSan .. a great food grade sanitizer , very safe easy to use.
not sure if this would work for your purpose . but its awesome for sterilizing ,jars bottles tools ect
-------------------- I GROW CACTUS
Edited by bezevo (11/20/16 11:49 PM)
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 4,168
Loc: TN
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bezevo]
#23853463 - 11/21/16 07:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah, no...
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: drake89]
#23853568 - 11/21/16 08:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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First of all 1% is 10,000 ppm 50k ppm is 5%....
Bleach sanitizes not sterilise. Besides the inside of grain is what needs to be treated the outside being clean doesn't save you
And youre plain dead wrong about chlorine all boiling off
As to the second poster. Star San is fucking garbage. It is only for homebrewers. It has piss poor activity on yeast and molds and is an ok sanitizer against gram negatives. It's DDBSA and phosphoric acid. Widely regarded as an amateur sanitizer for noob brewers. Star San has no place in actual brewing let alone any where in mushroom growing
Star San barely is a sanitizer it absolutely does not sterilize anything Likewise chlorine is a sanitizer it does not sterilize anything
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ElCharrua
Reverend

Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23855900 - 11/21/16 10:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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You're right about the concentration: 5 mL in 500 mL is 1%, or 10,000 PPM.
The inside of the grain is sterile, microorganisms live on the surface. In any case, the chlorine complements heat sterilization, not replaces it.
"Sterilization is using chemicals, temperature, gas and/or pressure to kill or inactivate all disease-causing bacteria, spores, fungi and viruses." Last time I checked, chlorine is a chemical.
In what do you base your comment that chlorine survives 1 hour at 15 PSI? Just boiling tap water for a few minutes eliminates the chlorine.
Edited by ElCharrua (11/21/16 10:46 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23856088 - 11/22/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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 You must be trolling
Chemicals do not sterilize. Sterilization isn't what they teach most people in science classes.
There's different chlorine molecules like chloramine you cannot boil out as easily. In a trapped system you cannot boil it off any way.
Easily put you didn't find out some new way of doing things. You just thought of the same thing most people who failed science class did
Edited by bodhisatta (11/22/16 12:35 AM)
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ElCharrua
Reverend

Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23856414 - 11/22/16 07:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, I'm not trolling. I'm sharing a method that has served me very well for many years. My sterilization technique using chlorine plus heat has batted 1.000, even though I don't soak or boil the grains.
Please check your facts: Clorox does not contain chloramine, so it IS easily evaporated.
You are proof that even on a Forum dedicated to entheogens there are people who cannot think outside of the box.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua] 1
#23856521 - 11/22/16 08:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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 If we didn't think out of the box there would be no progress
Chloramine is formed when chlorine in bleach reacts with organic material like well grains....
Endospores are embedded in the endosperm and not just on the surface. hence why we can't sterilise grain in 15 minutes at 15 psi like we can with liquids.
the USDA discounted hypochlorite surface sanitation of grains because of many reasons, the load of bacteria uses up the halogen quickly, contact with the chemical agent doesn't happen to all bacteria,molds,spores there's cracks crevices and even things like biofilms IE peptidoglycan layers that prevent contact.
Edited by bodhisatta (11/22/16 11:07 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23856540 - 11/22/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Also you say you use 50,000 ppm or about 1% neither of which make sense
If I recall Clorox brand is 5.25% free chlorine by volume
So your pure bottle of bleach is 52,500 ppm And say you use 1% clorox into water Then you have ~525ppm once diluted
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 4,168
Loc: TN
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23857277 - 11/22/16 12:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ElCharrua said: No, I'm not trolling. I'm sharing a method that has served me very well for many years. My sterilization technique using chlorine plus heat has batted 1.000, even though I don't soak or boil the grains.
Please check your facts: Clorox does not contain chloramine, so it IS easily evaporated.
You are proof that even on a Forum dedicated to entheogens there are people who cannot think outside of the box.
15 psi also has a 100% success rate so, what is your point?
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waleedss
Stranger
Registered: 11/28/16
Posts: 14
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: drake89]
#23877605 - 11/29/16 08:59 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bleach,h2o2,ozone and UV are good for outer surface and have nothing to do with inner spores.
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ElCharrua
Reverend

Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: waleedss]
#23885635 - 12/01/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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In any case, adding Clorox has never affected negatively subsequent growth, so worst case scenario is that I'm wasting a teaspoon of Clorox per half-gallon jar.
For those who have contam problems after the usual 15 PSI for 1 hour, it's worth trying. It's certainly simpler than soak overnight or boil the grains.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23885665 - 12/01/16 08:01 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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the usual is 15 psi for 1.5 hours MINIMUM for quart sized jars of grains. I do 2-2.5 hours at 18PSI with grain jars.
if you do grain bags you may need to go 3+ hours.
you likely will have problems if you only do 1 hour at 15psi with grain spawn.
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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23886958 - 12/02/16 09:19 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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For those who have contaminant problems at 15psi for 1 hour I suggest 15 psi at an hour and a half :faceplam:. Bleach is a bad idea on so many levels. As others have said it's a closed system so your bleach isn't going to all boil off. That's likely why sometimes you have jars with no growth is bc the bleach stalls the myciliums growth. Best case your bleach does nothing. Worse case it inhibits the growth making them grow slower and then weaker when you do spawn them resulting in less fruits and an easier chance for competition to move in. Do not do this.
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ElCharrua
Reverend

Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 17
Loc: Punta del Este, Uruguay
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: krypto2000]
#23887448 - 12/02/16 12:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Krypto, the only time I had growth problems was when I used syringes that were over a year ole.
Clorox has a very characteristic smell, one can smell it in tap water, that maxes out at 4 PPM. I can assure you there's no chlorine smell on my grains.
Again, I have done this for years, and I can assure you that there have been no negative consequences. Look, I'm not long on Clorox futures, just sharing something that has worked for me.
-------------------- Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice.
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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23887739 - 12/02/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well maybe so, but do you think the bleach actually has anything to do with it? If you pc properly then they're sterile bleach or no bleach. If I pced improperly I simply wouls not trust the spawn to use, again regardless if there is bleach in there.
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. *DELETED* [Re: bodhisatta]
#23888571 - 12/02/16 07:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by amidogen
Reason for deletion: .
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: amidogen]
#23888835 - 12/02/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Acid anionic sanitizers suck. The DDBSA does the killing the pH enables it. Many people assume it's the pH that does the killing. However yeast can be acid washed with phosphoric to 1.8 and lives just fine. Goes to show.
I would use a halogen based like iodine based. It does make hoses and plastic take a orange yellow color but interesting it is clogging uo those surfaces on a micro level making them easier to sanitize in the future.
Of course peroxyacetic sanitizer is best. Sometimes sold as an acid final rinse. It nearly sterilises surfaces like stainless. And as a no Rinse sanitizer I feel more safe about residual stuff from PAA than any halogen.
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Archaic
Revived


Registered: 11/20/16
Posts: 16
Loc: The desert.
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: ElCharrua]
#23889915 - 12/03/16 08:29 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cool, my tap water reeks of bleach so maybe I should just use that instead of distilled? :P
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Chlorine for sterilization. [Re: Archaic]
#23889919 - 12/03/16 08:31 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Municipal tap water is usually less than 1ppm. Use it for what? It's good for washing your hands and misting that's about it
Instead of distilled? You shouldn't be using distilled for anything other than filling lead acid batteries and making spore syringes.
Distilled has no place anywhere else in mushroom growing
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