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Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 4
    #24005448 - 01/12/17 08:15 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

free-market fundamentalists are as fun to debate as religious fundamentalists. :lol:

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Inequality is a feature, it doesn't need fixed. Scarcity is the reason for capitalism, because if there was no scarcity then everything would be free. Scarcity can't be gotten rid of, because resources are limited, labor and time also being resources.

It isnt about how much of either you use. That doesn't make sense. Capitalism regulates markets by getting to the direct price. It takes into account all aspects of development for an object and how much people desire it.

I don't know how capitalism is harming universities, in your opinion.

Capitalism is like biology. Its too complicated to get a complete idea of, but it has many factors the regulate themselves, because failing ideas fail




what elites want to return to now is laissez faire capitalism, unregulated capitalism. and that has been historically proven to drive inequality. societies with too much inequality collapse, so we need to take it very seriously. don't believe me? study history. this is such a truism that i shouldn't have to explain it in depth.

and going back to my reply, you can't treat everything like it's a commodity that is subject to 'market forces' (more on this below). take, for example, K-12 education. we decided a long time ago that we all need a K-12 education, and that we need to collectively pay for it with our taxes. guess what? that's socialism. treating higher education as if it's a commodity has been a disaster in that it places an undue burden - the burden of massive debt - on those who wish to pursue it because, about thirty years ago, higher education policies allowed colleges to focus more on profit, and the trend has only gone upward as anyone would expect from a laissez faire approach.

my parents went to college when it was affordable. and as a result, they experienced great prosperity. now, most people are lucky if they make it to the upper middle class, and we are worse off for it. our middle class has shrank by nearly 25% since the 70s according to an IMF report from last year. that's not good.

if you want steady innovation, a dynamic, well trained workforce, better politics (from a more knowledgeable voting base), a safer, less volatile society, then accessible college is a great way to achieve that. some things are just more important than profit. higher education is certainly one of those things. and so is healthcare.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

qman said:

How would US workers making products for US citizens hurt the US, I don't think you know what you're even talking about.




because it doesn't address wages and benefits. those jobs would still be low pay, minimum, high-deductible benefits positions, only with american bodies filling them instead of illegal labor.

Quote:

Really, having a job and having wages moving higher isn't an improvement? Again you don't know what you're talking about. :facepalm:




on what do you couch your claim that wages would necessarily get higher across the board in the event of mass deportation? again, it's not like americans who even want to pick fruit are just going to magically get a raise if we rid ourselves of every shred of illegal labor, assuming that's even possible. we're never going to deport our way out of wage stagnation because the problem is not a result of illegal labor. wage stagnation is the result of a complete redesign of the economy, starting during the nixon years, which has rendered it as a machine that only distributes wealth upwardly.

if you care about american labor, you should favor an economy that presents secure pathways to shared prosperity for everyone; not just doctors, not just lawyers, not just software engineers, everyone. a properly functioning economy is the bedrock of a just society. add functioning democratic institutions, efficient and effective social services, socialized healthcare and free college, and we might just move up a few spots up from 20th place in living standards of the industrialized world.




You obviously don't understand the basic economic laws of supply (labor) an demand (jobs availability), more people chasing the same amount of jobs equals lower wages, why do you think the corporate elite have always been in favor of an open border?  Because that means lower wages for EVERYONE.

"wage stagnation is the result of a complete resign of the economy"

Yes, globalization (unfair trade) and illegal/legal immigration into the US workforce.

"only distributes wealth upwardly"

That's correct, yet you're in favor of those policies that do so, you're so misinformed on basic economics.

"prosperity for everyone"

Now you're in hippy pie in the sky nonsense, you're hoping for some bureaucrat in Washington to save you, it's never going to happen.

Who the fuck is going to pay for free social services, free health care and free college if we continue to ship the jobs out of the US?  Is Julio making $7 per hour under the table going to support this system?  :facepalm:




it's not that i don't understand the argument that you're making; it's that i reject it.

markets are man-made: the economy is not subject to natural laws, or "blind, unbroken regularities" as hume puts it. the term 'market' entails rules, starting with whatever rules we make for transactions. whatever follows from those rules and subtleties we bake into the system is ultimately our doing. and if we ultimately control our economy, then we can surely make it a more inclusive and just one, not only because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's practical. as mentioned above, societies that are as lopsided as ours tend to be prone to collapse.

it's amusing how you act like paying everyone enough to live and giving them opportunities to move upward is akin to colonizing mars or whatever. we can do whatever we set our minds to. as a nation, we have unprecedented wealth. the money is there. it just doesn't suit our elites to use it in our interest, so they pass down bullshit justifications for what they do so people like yourself can repeat it as truth. it doesn't have to be this way.


Edited by millzy (01/13/17 05:10 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
    #24005461 - 01/12/17 08:18 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

:thatsaten:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24006377 - 01/13/17 07:00 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Millzy the real mvp :thumbup:


--------------------


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
    #24006600 - 01/13/17 09:08 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
free-market fundamentalists are as fun to debate as religious fundamentalists. :lol:

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Inequality is a feature, it doesn't need fixed. Scarcity is the reason for capitalism, because if there was no scarcity then everything would be free. Scarcity can't be gotten rid of, because resources are limited, labor and time also being resources.

It isnt about how much of either you use. That doesn't make sense. Capitalism regulates markets by getting to the direct price. It takes into account all aspects of development for an object and how much people desire it.

I don't know how capitalism is harming universities, in your opinion.

Capitalism is like biology. Its too complicated to get a complete idea of, but it has many factors the regulate themselves, because failing ideas fail




what elites want to return to now is laissez faire capitalism, unregulated capitalism. and that has been historically proven to drive inequality. societies with too much inequality collapse, so we need to take it very seriously. don't believe me? study history. this is such a truism that i shouldn't have to explain it in depth.

and going back to my reply, you can't treat everything like it's a commodity that is subject to 'market forces' (more on this below). take, for example, K-12 education. we decided a long time ago that we all need a K-12 education, and that we need to collectively pay for it with our taxes. guess what? that's socialism. treating higher education as if it's a commodity has been a disaster in that it places an undue burden - the burden of massive debt - on those who wish to pursue it because, about thirty years ago, higher education policies allowed colleges to focus more on profit, and the trend has only gone upward as anyone would expect from a laissez faire approach.

my parents went to college when it was affordable. and as a result, they experienced great prosperity. now, most people are lucky if they make it to the upper middle class, and we are worse off for it. our middle class has shrank by nearly 25% since the 70s according to an IMF report from last year. that's not good.

if you want steady innovation, a dynamic, well trained workforce, better politics (from a more knowledgeable voting base), a safer, less volatile society, then accessible college is a great way to achieve that. some things are just more important than profit. higher education is certainly one of those things. and so is healthcare.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

qman said:

How would US workers making products for US citizens hurt the US, I don't think you know what you're even talking about.




because it doesn't address wages and benefits. those jobs would still be low pay, minimum, high-deductible benefits positions, only with american bodies filling them instead of illegal labor.

Quote:

Really, having a job and having wages moving higher isn't an improvement? Again you don't know what you're talking about. :facepalm:




on what do you couch your claim that wages would necessarily get higher across the board in the event of mass deportation? again, it's not like americans who even want to pick fruit are just going to magically get a raise if we rid ourselves of every shred of illegal labor, assuming that's even possible. we're never going to deport our way out of wage stagnation because the problem is not a result of illegal labor. wage stagnation is the result of a complete redesign of the economy, starting during the nixon years, which has rendered it as a machine that only distributes wealth upwardly.

if you care about american labor, you should favor an economy that presents secure pathways to shared prosperity for everyone; not just doctors, not just lawyers, not just software engineers, everyone. a properly functioning economy is the bedrock of a just society. add functioning democratic institutions, efficient and effective social services, socialized healthcare and free college, and we might just move up a few spots up from 20th place in living standards of the industrialized world.




You obviously don't understand the basic economic laws of supply (labor) an demand (jobs availability), more people chasing the same amount of jobs equals lower wages, why do you think the corporate elite have always been in favor of an open border?  Because that means lower wages for EVERYONE.

"wage stagnation is the result of a complete resign of the economy"

Yes, globalization (unfair trade) and illegal/legal immigration into the US workforce.

"only distributes wealth upwardly"

That's correct, yet you're in favor of those policies that do so, you're so misinformed on basic economics.

"prosperity for everyone"

Now you're in hippy pie in the sky nonsense, you're hoping for some bureaucrat in Washington to save you, it's never going to happen.

Who the fuck is going to pay for free social services, free health care and free college if we continue to ship the jobs out of the US?  Is Julio making $7 per hour under the table going to support this system?  :facepalm:




it's not that i don't understand the argument that you're making; it's that i reject it.

markets are man-made: the economy is not subject to natural laws, or "blind, unbroken regularities" as hume puts it. the term 'market' entails rules, starting with whatever rules we make for transactions. whatever follows from those rules and subtleties we bake into the system is ultimately our doing. and if we ultimately control our economy, then we can surely make it a more inclusive and just one, not only because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's practical. as mentioned above, societies that are as lopsided as ours tend to be prone to collapse.

it's amusing how you act like paying everyone enough to live and giving them opportunities to move upward is akin to colonizing mars or whatever. we can do whatever we set our minds to. as a nation, we have unprecedented wealth. the money is there. it just doesn't suit our elites to use it in our interest, so they pass down bullshit justifications for what they do so people like yourself can repeat it as truth. it doesn't have to be this way.




"the economy is not subject to natural laws"

This is such nonsense, where do we get natural resources?  Nature, and sometimes those resources are limited.  There is not unlimited resources therefore the economics of man are subject to "natural laws".

"we have unprecedented wealth. the money is there"

This is where your ignorance is showing, money in a bank account is NOT wealth, it's perceived wealth. There's a huge difference if the "money" is just sitting there, and if the money is being spent, it changes the value of the "unprecedented wealth" very quickly and dramatically.

BTW, I'm no voice for defending the actions of the elite, but you are!  Who do you think is the biggest advocate of globalization?  The Elite!!

Who do you think is the biggest advocate of illegal and legal immigration into the US labor market?  Yes, once again the Elite!!

You're so full of shit is amazing, your views support everything your against. :facepalm:  You support the destruction of the middle class, you support weak wages, you support high profit margins for big companies and then complain about things not being fair.  You can't have it both ways, you can't advocate for the destruction of jobs and wages, and then say market forces don't apply.


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24006613 - 01/13/17 09:15 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Millzy the real mvp :thumbup:




The MVP of economic ignorance.

BTW, this is for you and Fal, what is Bernie's view on globalization and economic tariffs?  :rofl2:

That's right, Bernie is a huge advocate for tariffs to help the working class in the US.  Do you guys also support Bernie on this policy?  If so, you're in direct DISAGREEMENT with the argument Millzy is attempting to make, why don't you guys point that out to him? 

Instead, you guys cheer lead something you're really against because his rant is filled with a bunch of liberal economic dribble. :facepalm:


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #24006631 - 01/13/17 09:26 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
a trade war would hurt both countries. and mass deportation wouldn't improve conditions for legal workers who would supposedly fill those jobs.




"a trade war would hurt both countries"

How would US workers making products for US citizens hurt the US, I don't think you know what you're even talking about.






It would raise the price of goods, create scarcity and environmental damage.  It benefits the few at the expense of the nation as a whole.  I work in a factory.  We would immediately shut down without global trade.  The US doesn't have resource to keep us running, we have to import them.  Also, the US doesn't have the consumer base to buy all our products.

Trade and immigration are scapegoats for real economic and environmental constraints.




"It would raise the price of the goods"

I agree, but it would also provide more much jobs and create higher wages, remember the economic prosperity before globalization?  The 1950's, 60's, 70's and 80's were very good decades for the working class.

"create scarcity"

There wasn't any "scarcity" during those decades, producers made sure of that fact.

"It benefits the few at the expense of the nation as a whole"

Bringing back the millions of jobs benefits ALL US workers and no expense other than the very rich, whose side are you on?  You do realize they shipped the jobs out of the US to get the very few rich?  They didn't do it for the working class.

"shut down without global trade"

No one is advocating for no global trade, there is still trade with economic tariffs.  People like Trump want FAIR trade, having a almost $1 trillion trade deficit per year is NOT free trade.

Having manipulated currencies in this global trade isn't free trade, the game is rigged and there is NOTHING free or fair about it.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 45 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #24006879 - 01/13/17 11:20 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Millzy the real mvp :thumbup:




The MVP of economic ignorance.

BTW, this is for you and Fal, what is Bernie's view on globalization and economic tariffs?  :rofl2:

That's right, Bernie is a huge advocate for tariffs to help the working class in the US.  Do you guys also support Bernie on this policy?  If so, you're in direct DISAGREEMENT with the argument Millzy is attempting to make, why don't you guys point that out to him? 

Instead, you guys cheer lead something you're really against because his rant is filled with a bunch of liberal economic dribble. :facepalm:




You're just annoyed that, once again, everyone is in agreement but you. No need to lash out, though.

But for the record, I thought Bernie's stance on tariffs were a pipe dream. Unreasonable at best. Contrary to what you may think, there were a lot of things I disagreed with Bernie on. I chose to support him because he's a step in the right direction.


--------------------


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24007099 - 01/13/17 12:48 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Bernie and people like him create worse class tension by attacking the '1%' . Business is the enemy to leftists. Its so backward

They think the government created the middle class


Economics is obviously made out of emergent forces and patterns based on our resources, production, people's shopping tendencies, prices. When you try to control it, its like when people try to control complex aspects of the biosphere and cause long term effects.

I'd have really valued my job more if t government did mandate overtime, so I couldn't work extra if I wanted to. It always makes such good choices for workers.


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica Flag
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #24007114 - 01/13/17 12:53 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Unions created the middle class.


--------------------


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24007131 - 01/13/17 01:06 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Unions fit fine into the capitalistic framework.

The workers wanted more of the money bing made because so much was being made.


--------------------


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InvisibleBig Bear
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Registered: 06/11/14
Posts: 5,415
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #24007157 - 01/13/17 01:19 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Unions created the middle class.



Whether or not you agree with the above hypothesis (I do), one thing cannot be disputed. 

There was a direct correlation between the growth in unions and the growth of the middle class from world war two until the 1980s.  The union busting began under Reaganomics and many jobs went over seas. This isn't a crazy opinion, this is a known fact. 

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I'd have really valued my job more if t government did mandate overtime, so I couldn't work extra if I wanted to. It always makes such good choices for workers.



Comments like this are really short sighted and reveal why you chose the user name you did. 

Overtime laws, minimum wage, and weekends aren't some crazy thing invented by the government to keep you down.  These laws were put in place by the working class, because of really fucked up conditions.  In Chicago meatpacking plants during the 1850s, Eastern European immigrants were forced to work every day without breaks for years on end until they died.  Workers had no mandatory safety regulations and would fall in to vats of boiling water.  The foreman would fish out the skeletons after the meat had all boiled off the bones, and the product would be canned, sold, and distributed to consumers around the country. 

Likewise, in the early 1900s electrical lineman used to have a 50% on the job mortality rate. Now it's well below .5% a year that get killed. 

I'm not sure where the american people got the lie in their head that unchecked capitalism is such a grand success story.  A simple look at history reveals very fucking clearly what happens when there is no regulation. 

Also, it's pretty ironic that in all these cities that are raising the minimum wage laws, there has been next to no provable negative impact whatsoever on the economy.  Here's a new and interesting piece of evidence from Berkley about the effects of raising the minimum wage in one of the poorest parts of California.

http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/01/11/research-zeroing-in-on-fresno-shows-15-california-minimum-wage-has-big-impact-on-pay-none-on-jobs/

Not sure what the primary debate is as i haven't kept up with the thread, but if it's to get rid of overtime then fuck no we shouldn't get rid of it.  That's a really fucking dumb idea.


Edited by Big Bear (01/13/17 01:20 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #24007487 - 01/13/17 03:09 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
markets are man-made: the economy is not subject to natural laws, or "blind, unbroken regularities" as hume puts it. the term 'market' entails rules, starting with whatever rules we make for transactions. whatever follows from those rules and subtleties we bake into the system is ultimately our doing. and if we ultimately control our economy, then we can surely make it a more inclusive and just one, not only because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's practical. as mentioned above, societies that are as lopsided as ours tend to be prone to collapse.



This is such nonsense, where do we get natural resources?  Nature, and sometimes those resources are limited.  There is not unlimited resources therefore the economics of man are subject to "natural laws".



I put the context back into millzy's post so that you can clearly see he wasn't making the argument that resources are unlimited.  He was making the argument that markets are subject to man made rules.  Please, PRETTY PLEASE stop with the straw man arguments.  If you can't argue with what a person says, don't make up a stupid argument for them.  It's getting old calling you out on that.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
we have unprecedented wealth. the money is there



This is where your ignorance is showing, money in a bank account is NOT wealth, it's perceived wealth. There's a huge difference if the "money" is just sitting there, and if the money is being spent, it changes the value of the "unprecedented wealth" very quickly and dramatically.



Before calling people ignorant I suggest:
1. You look up the definition of wealth (it includes money)
2. You understand how money being spent changes the value of wealth.  It INCREASES wealth, helping millzy's argument that we have unprecedented wealth.

Quote:

qman said:
BTW, I'm no voice for defending the actions of the elite, but you are!  Who do you think is the biggest advocate of globalization?  The Elite!!

You're so full of shit is amazing, your views support everything your against. :facepalm:

BTW, this is for you and Fal, what is Bernie's view on globalization and economic tariffs?  :rofl2:

That's right, Bernie is a huge advocate for tariffs to help the working class in the US.  Do you guys also support Bernie on this policy?  If so, you're in direct DISAGREEMENT with the argument Millzy is attempting to make, why don't you guys point that out to him?



I've actually said many times that tariffs are bad unless corporations choose not to share all the extra money they get from free trade with their workers.  If they do, I'm all for free trade.

Quote:

qman said:
You support the destruction of the middle class, you support weak wages, you support high profit margins for big companies



PLEASE stop the straw man arguments!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #24007496 - 01/13/17 03:12 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Bernie and people like him create worse class tension by attacking the '1%' . Business is the enemy to leftists. Its so backward



You've expressed many times that you're ok with wealth inequality, and letting corporations keep all the profits their workers earn.  Not everyone agrees.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I'd have really valued my job more if t government did mandate overtime, so I couldn't work extra if I wanted to. It always makes such good choices for workers.



Your name is very appropriate.  :thumbup:

Edit:  Big Bear already said that - too funny!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Big Bear]
    #24007521 - 01/13/17 03:20 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Big Bear said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Unions created the middle class.



Whether or not you agree with the above hypothesis (I do), one thing cannot be disputed.

There was a direct correlation between the growth in unions and the growth of the middle class from world war two until the 1980s.  The union busting began under Reaganomics and many jobs went over seas. This isn't a crazy opinion, this is a known fact.



Here's the evidence to back that up again (for special people like specialpeopleclub):



Quote:

Big Bear said:
Overtime laws, minimum wage, and weekends aren't some crazy thing invented by the government to keep you down.  These laws were put in place by the working class, because of really fucked up conditions.  In Chicago meatpacking plants during the 1850s, Eastern European immigrants were forced to work every day without breaks for years on end until they died.  Workers had no mandatory safety regulations and would fall in to vats of boiling water.  The foreman would fish out the skeletons after the meat had all boiled off the bones, and the product would be canned, sold, and distributed to consumers around the country. 

Likewise, in the early 1900s electrical lineman used to have a 50% on the job mortality rate. Now it's well below .5% a year that get killed. 

I'm not sure where the american people got the lie in their head that unchecked capitalism is such a grand success story.  A simple look at history reveals very fucking clearly what happens when there is no regulation. 

Also, it's pretty ironic that in all these cities that are raising the minimum wage laws, there has been next to no provable negative impact whatsoever on the economy.  Here's a new and interesting piece of evidence from Berkley about the effects of raising the minimum wage in one of the poorest parts of California.

http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/01/11/research-zeroing-in-on-fresno-shows-15-california-minimum-wage-has-big-impact-on-pay-none-on-jobs/

Not sure what the primary debate is as i haven't kept up with the thread, but if it's to get rid of overtime then fuck no we shouldn't get rid of it.  That's a really fucking dumb idea.



:raisemyglass:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24007833 - 01/13/17 05:20 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Millzy the real mvp :thumbup:




The MVP of economic ignorance.

BTW, this is for you and Fal, what is Bernie's view on globalization and economic tariffs?  :rofl2:

That's right, Bernie is a huge advocate for tariffs to help the working class in the US.  Do you guys also support Bernie on this policy?  If so, you're in direct DISAGREEMENT with the argument Millzy is attempting to make, why don't you guys point that out to him? 

Instead, you guys cheer lead something you're really against because his rant is filled with a bunch of liberal economic dribble. :facepalm:




You're just annoyed that, once again, everyone is in agreement but you. No need to lash out, though.

But for the record, I thought Bernie's stance on tariffs were a pipe dream. Unreasonable at best. Contrary to what you may think, there were a lot of things I disagreed with Bernie on. I chose to support him because he's a step in the right direction.




"I thought Bernie's stance on tariffs were a pipe dream"

Why?  Because he could never accomplish that economic goal or are you truly against the policy?


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24007865 - 01/13/17 05:36 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
markets are man-made: the economy is not subject to natural laws, or "blind, unbroken regularities" as hume puts it. the term 'market' entails rules, starting with whatever rules we make for transactions. whatever follows from those rules and subtleties we bake into the system is ultimately our doing. and if we ultimately control our economy, then we can surely make it a more inclusive and just one, not only because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's practical. as mentioned above, societies that are as lopsided as ours tend to be prone to collapse.



This is such nonsense, where do we get natural resources?  Nature, and sometimes those resources are limited.  There is not unlimited resources therefore the economics of man are subject to "natural laws".



I put the context back into millzy's post so that you can clearly see he wasn't making the argument that resources are unlimited.  He was making the argument that markets are subject to man made rules.  Please, PRETTY PLEASE stop with the straw man arguments.  If you can't argue with what a person says, don't make up a stupid argument for them.  It's getting old calling you out on that.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
we have unprecedented wealth. the money is there



This is where your ignorance is showing, money in a bank account is NOT wealth, it's perceived wealth. There's a huge difference if the "money" is just sitting there, and if the money is being spent, it changes the value of the "unprecedented wealth" very quickly and dramatically.



Before calling people ignorant I suggest:
1. You look up the definition of wealth (it includes money)
2. You understand how money being spent changes the value of wealth.  It INCREASES wealth, helping millzy's argument that we have unprecedented wealth.

Quote:

qman said:
BTW, I'm no voice for defending the actions of the elite, but you are!  Who do you think is the biggest advocate of globalization?  The Elite!!

You're so full of shit is amazing, your views support everything your against. :facepalm:

BTW, this is for you and Fal, what is Bernie's view on globalization and economic tariffs?  :rofl2:

That's right, Bernie is a huge advocate for tariffs to help the working class in the US.  Do you guys also support Bernie on this policy?  If so, you're in direct DISAGREEMENT with the argument Millzy is attempting to make, why don't you guys point that out to him?



I've actually said many times that tariffs are bad unless corporations choose not to share all the extra money they get from free trade with their workers.  If they do, I'm all for free trade.

Quote:

qman said:
You support the destruction of the middle class, you support weak wages, you support high profit margins for big companies



PLEASE stop the straw man arguments!




He stated that markets are man made, I showed markets involving resources are NOT man made because of the supply and demand part of the equation.

"money being spent changes the value of wealth. It INCREASES wealth"

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  If too much money chases to few of goods, what happens?  Inflation, which ultimately destroys some of the purchasing power of the existing currency units and the debt held in that currency.

"tariffs are bad unless corporations choose not to share all the extra money they get from free trade with their workers"

I'm not sure this statement even makes sense, what are you trying to articulate here?


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #24007927 - 01/13/17 06:05 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

markets are man-made.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24007947 - 01/13/17 06:18 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
markets are man-made.




No shit, but market fundamentals are NOT, can you see the difference?  :flowstone:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 1
    #24007951 - 01/13/17 06:20 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I put the context back into millzy's post so that you can clearly see he wasn't making the argument that resources are unlimited.  He was making the argument that markets are subject to man made rules.



He stated that markets are man made, I showed markets involving resources are NOT man made because of the supply and demand part of the equation.



markets are man-made.



Akira is right.  And besides, millzy didn't make the argument that resources are unlimited.  That was a straw man.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
money being spent changes the value of wealth. It INCREASES wealth



Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  If too much money chases to few of goods, what happens?  Inflation, which ultimately destroys some of the purchasing power of the existing currency units and the debt held in that currency.



Just a moment ago, you argued that wealth isn't money.  Are you now arguing that wealth is ONLY money?  Sure, there might be some inflation (which the Federal Reserve would slow), but the goods created by money also increases wealth.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
tariffs are bad unless corporations choose not to share all the extra money they get from free trade with their workers



I'm not sure this statement even makes sense, what are you trying to articulate here?



I'm sure you agree that corporations would make more money without tariffs.  So they could use some of that extra money to pay their workers more.  If they did that, I'd support free trade.

But as you know, corporations have no interest in paying their workers fairly.  Instead, they'll find a location where they can pay workers the least.  This costs US jobs.  One way to counter that is with tariffs (so products made in foreign countries aren't priced lower than American products).  Not the best solution, but it beats losing jobs to cheaper locations abroad.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #24007952 - 01/13/17 06:20 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

no. market fundamentals is the market. no one else on this planet "MARKETS" or does trade.

it is a man-made invention.

Quote:

qman said:
Why?  Because he could never accomplish that economic goal or are you truly against the policy?



he?

Quote:

Bernie and people like him create worse class tension by attacking the '1%' . Business is the enemy to leftists. Its so backward



no. what's backward is the rich screwing everyone else by placing their tax burden on them.

and there should be class tension when there is class warfare being implemented.

PS: i'm not gonna go fetch the quote, but DieCommie's last comment was right.


Edited by akira_akuma (01/13/17 06:29 PM)


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