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InvisibleTFI
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Socialism vs democracy
    #23844860 - 11/18/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government as opposed to democracy.

how do you feel?

I personally am a conservative republican where i believe that less government and less regulation means you get to live your life as you see fit


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 2
    #23844875 - 11/18/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
I personally am a conservative republican where i believe that less government and less regulation means you get to live your life as you see fit




The conservatives are more against entheogenic activity and the free use of substances than the liberals are.  So that notion falls by the wayside.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23844887 - 11/18/16 10:48 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well i suppose by definition i am a liberal. Why is it conceived backwards then? Never understood that lol.


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InvisibleBig Bear
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 3
    #23844940 - 11/18/16 11:07 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Why do the two things have to be mutually exclusive? The real question should be capitalism vs socialism.  We currently exist in a not very democratic capitalist country in the us of a.  Socialism and capitalism have to do with labor, product, and economic allocation.

There has never been a 100% democratic socialist country in our worlds history yet.  We can't consider the ussr as a true socialist country because there was sill classism.  You had the ruling class (communist party) and then everyone else. 

True socialism is when the labor controls the economy, which certainly wasn't the case in the Soviet Union. Socialism is defined technically as:

Quote:

a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.




Which wasn't the case in the ussr. 

My problem with right wingers in general is ill informed rhetoric.  Socialism and Capitalism are economic ideas.  Democracy and Fascism are mutually exclusive.  Democracy and socialism are not.  Educate yourself.  Don't regurgitate ignorant right wing rhetoric


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Big Bear]
    #23845040 - 11/18/16 11:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So democracy vs communism


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Big Bear]
    #23845070 - 11/18/16 11:52 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, Big Bear, nice catch there.  Socialism and democracy are fully compatible.  In the U.S., we live in a federal republic with strong democratic traditions and a probably insufficiently regulated free-market capitalist economy which is about to become less regulated.  France, on the other hand, is basically a welfare state.  The European countries have a more (although not extremely) robust socialist element to their systems.  They have their problems, but people are much better cared for in Western Europe than in the U.S., and due to more liberal social and fiscal policies, some studies have shown that the extra free time and other benefits there lead to increased happiness and well-being.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI]
    #23846270 - 11/18/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think you need both for either to work personally


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Ezuma]
    #23846313 - 11/18/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 2
    #23847006 - 11/18/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
So democracy vs communism



No.  Capitalism vs communism.  As others noted, you can have communism and democracy.  Just as you can have capitalism and fascism.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23847875 - 11/19/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

TFI said:
So democracy vs communism



No.  Capitalism vs communism.  As others noted, you can have communism and democracy.  Just as you can have capitalism and fascism.




As well as fascism and socialism


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InvisibleBig Bear
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23847987 - 11/19/16 10:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Well we've already seen a fascist socialist state
We've seen democratic capitalist states
We've seen fascist capitalist states

we have yet to see a truly democratic socialist state though.  All the other systems are prone to failure, so I think there is plenty of room for discussion about the concept.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Big Bear]
    #23848096 - 11/19/16 10:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Big Bear said:


we have yet to see a truly democratic socialist state though.  All the other systems are prone to failure, so I think there is plenty of room for discussion about the concept.




I think you should do some research on Greece and Venezuela, two fine examples of democratic socialism that the Bernice wanted to bring here

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/04/greeces-economic-crisis-goes-on-odyssey-without-end

http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/20/news/economy/venezuela-world-worst-economy/


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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InvisibleBig Bear
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: hostileuniverse] * 5
    #23848156 - 11/19/16 10:46 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

:facepalm:

I don't spend time fighting trumpers any more...but you are objectively wrong about a few things.

1.  Venezuela is not a "democratic" socialist state
http://www.inquisitr.com/3125414/dont-blame-socialism-for-collapse-in-venezuela-blame-its-dictator/

2. Greece's financial crisis wasn't caused by their social programs.  Someone else online wrote it out already so I'll just copy pasta a pretty thorough and fact based writeup.

Quote:

1. In 2010 and 2011, mainly German and French banks in pursuit of high profits made massive loans to Greek firms. When the banks recognized that this was a high risk, they were bailed out (not Greece) by transferring the debt from the banks to the public institutions like the European Central Bank and the IMF.  Now the ECB and the IMF are trying to force the Greek government to cut pensions, education, salaries, and health care to pay for the bail out of the banks.

These funds were transferred from banks, the ECB, and the IMF to pay back banks, the ECB  and the IMF.  Few funds were used to assist the Greek people. That is loans are being used to refinance the debt. They are recycled back to Germany, France  and other nations’ banks.  (Macropolis)

2.  The German nation owes almost as much money to the Greek people as Greece owes to Germany and the European Central Bank combined.

But Greece can not collect from Germany. Germany has the political and economic power (and allies such as the U.S.) to enforce debt repayment by starving the Greek economy and forcing the Greek nation into a great depression. (Hallinan,  “Greece, Memory and Debt.”)

3. The current policies are imposing a depression on Greece.  Austerity policies have produced a decline in the Greek economy by over 25% since 2010.  John Maynard Keynes explained this effect of imposed austerity during a depression way back in the 1930s,  but the bankers and the governments they control choose to ignore this reality in part because it is not in their interest.

There are significant and complex economic issues here, but it is equally important to not allow narrow, technocratic,  bankers’ and  economists’ insiders views to  go unchallenged.  The problem is not that they are technocrats, but that their numeracy (number crunching) disguises a particular set of political assumptions that enriches and protects the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.

The domination of discussion in the media and in academia by a narrow and limited view of economics allows the neoliberal (pro- finance capital) assumptions to determine policy.  To understand this process of wealth extraction, we need to recognize how debt has been transferred from banks to nominally “public” institutions such as the IMF and the European Central Bank.

The bankers’  assumptions produce policy choices that make the rich richer and the poor poorer.  They are not the product of a science of economics  but of the well-financed pursuit of self interest and the promotion of profit by the financial oligarchy.

To begin to comprehend an alternative, you need to understand, along with Greek Finance Minister  Yanis Varoufakis,  that this is not a Greek crisis, it is a Eurozone crisis that is currently having its most devastating effects on the people of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy, and immigrant minorities in France,  among others.  See his explanation here.

The crisis is severe. These countries, and particularly young people, are going through a  depression, similar in scope and magnitude to of the Great Depression of the 1930’s which brought fascism to power in Germany, Italy and Spain.

The austerity demands of European bankers and politicians have shattered the economy of Greece,  producing  layoffs, wage and pension reductions, and huge cutbacks in health care. Some 44 percent of the Greek people are now living below the poverty line.

Pensions for retirees is currently one of the major sticking points preventing a compromise between Greece and the Eurozone bankers.

The Financial Times reports, “main pensions have been slashed 44 to 48 percent since 2010, reducing the average pension to 700 euros a month … About 45 percent of Greek pensioners receive less than 665 euros monthly — below the official poverty threshold.”  This is about $745 dollars per month.  (Mark Weisbrot)

Many pensioners and their families  have already been reduced to poverty, and currently  the European Central Bank  and the IMF  insist on yet further cuts in pensions. For honest recording of the many and changing data points, I recommend the Center for Economic Policy and Research.

The crisis was initially created by the general crisis of capitalism in  2008/2009. 

During this period, Europeans, especially in Greece, Spain and Italy, suffered a recession similar to our own, including use of tax dollars to save major banks.  The looting of the U.S. economy crashed the world economy and caused the massive cutbacks Greeks and others continue to suffer. The situation is not improving.

In Europe, as in the U.S., the banks were bailed out at public expense while the working people were required to pay the bailout costs.  Bankers raised their profits by imposing policies of severe loan paybacks as a part of the program known as austerity.  Austerity policies are ruining the Greek economy —  and you and I should care, in part because similar policies and programs  are at work in the U.S. and are advocated by most of the Republican candidates for President.

Bankers imposed their plan for austerity through their influence on government power, and quasi-governmental institutions such as the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the European  Union Central  Bank.  In the poorer countries of Europe, the imposition of austerity has made the economic situation worse year by year while maintaining a very profitable system for finance capital and capitalists.  This is class war of the rich against the poor and impoverished. 

Why is this devastation austerity policy being imposed?  Austerity is imposed by coordinated economic power because, in the short term, it serves the interests of finance oligarchs in Europe and the U.S.  If we misunderstand the nature of the crisis being imposed upon the people of Greece, Spain, etc,  then we are likely to misunderstand the crisis being imposed upon working people and pensioners and college students ( among others) here in  the U.S.

Under the current system of political economic advantage and ideological domination in the European Union, the working people, the 99%, cannot win.  They are being forced into increasing desperation, at times with the support of working people in Germany, for example,  who support their government’s harsh economic extractions from Greece due to nationalists’ myth making rather than an analysis of  economic reality.  See the excellent essay on Greece: Memory and Debt

A government responding to the needs of the 99% of its own people, as has the Syriza government of Greece, would need to seek alternatives to the continuing economic despoliation.  If a democratic government is elected in Spain this fall, they will face similar demands from the bankers and creditors.

The European Monetary Union is not going to change, because the current system is very profitable for the financial oligarchy.

There are alternatives.  Leading economists recognize the failure of the austerity approach and have proposed alternatives, but the banking sector will not consider reform.  See “A Modest Proposal” A significant number of mainstream economists have proposed reasonable if moderate alternatives ( Joseph Stiglitz, Thomas Piketty, and others: “Economists Demand End to Greek Austerity”). A Greek exit from the Eurozone may be the best of several bad options.  They could leave the 19-member Eurozone (European Monetary Union) but remain in the 28-nation European Union.  As an example, Great Britain is in the European Union but not in the European Monetary Union known as the Eurozone.

Another alternative supported by a left wing in Syriza would be for Greece to follow the example of Iceland and nationalize the  banks rather than bail them out with further bank and  IMF loans that must be repaid by further cutting of pensions, schools, health care and social services.  Certainly, a new policy direction  is needed.

So, what do we do as a left in the U.S.?

First, we need to comprehend the reality of the oligarchy using the governments to impose austerity in Europe and in the U.S.  To do this, we need to turn to alternative media and economic institutions, since the oligarchy funds and promotes its views and claims a consensus on the  “Greek crisis.”  I recommend the several papers at the Center for Economic Policy and Research site.

The bankers and the governments that they control argue that Greece is just being irresponsible.  This blaming the victim is the same argument that U.S. finance used to blame the poor and people of color  home owners in the U.S. for the real estate crisis that the banks caused in 2008/2009.  The oligarchy has a significant infrastructure and well endowed economists to promote their neoliberal economic viewpoints.

Study and analysis and acts of solidarity beyond the dominant paradigms will help us to develop policies and practices  for the needed  battle in our own society against corporate greed and the neoliberal finance oligarchy. These forces control a growing number of state governments, including Kansas, Wisconsin, Ohio, Louisiana, Texas and most of the South.  The corporate forces provide the resources for the Republican Party victories in the U.S. Congress, which consistently promotes austerity policies at the federal level as well as providing the economic and media advisors of most of the Republican candidates for the U.S. presidency. 

We need to break the stranglehold on what passes for economic thinking here in the U.S. as well as in Europe.




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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Big Bear]
    #23848254 - 11/19/16 11:20 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/venezuela-is-democratic-socialism-in-action/article/2591630

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/19/is-greece-a-case-of-failed-socialism/

You should educate yourself to the facts about these two countries and their socialism

***no argument needed if you are brave enough to read


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: hostileuniverse] * 4
    #23848320 - 11/19/16 11:49 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i don't think it's a matter of having an entirely socialist society, but rather socializing certain elements of society for society's benefit. for example, having equal access to higher education and healthcare benefits everyone. nobody should be yoked with crippling debt for attending college and/or being sick, and the notion that either of these things necessarily function better as privatized sectors of industry is just rhetoric passed down from elites who benefit from those sectors' privatization.

as far as the size of government goes, i think it really depends on where you're talking about. densely populated areas require an extremely sophisticated bureaucracy. rural areas, not so much. treating each idea (big vs. small government) as mutually exclusive is faulty reasoning in my view, because we clearly have both in play. counties are our most basic political unit, and they allow us to tailor our government to suit our needs, which is why we have less government in rural areas and more government in urban areas. so again, towing this tired line of rhetoric about big and small government is really just repeating bullshit that people say to keep their jobs and enrich themselves along the way.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (11/19/16 11:51 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23852090 - 11/20/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government as opposed to democracy.

how do you feel?

I personally am a conservative republican where i believe that less government and less regulation means you get to live your life as you see fit




I think you've been sucked in by Fox.

Democratic socialism is the progressive movement people like Bernie Sanders promote, not socialism or communism.

If you vote conservative republican you're voting for a larger government as is seen right now with bills to make women pay for funerals if they have a miscarriage or their child dies during birth/still birth etc.

That and more interventions overseas, less healthcare, less fossil fuel regulations, less taxes for the richest of the richest corporations/large businesses and a big fuck you to working middle class families.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: sudly]
    #23852113 - 11/20/16 05:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

A more appropriate term would be "Far Left Democrat"

Or "Radical Democrat"


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Great Scott] * 2
    #23852183 - 11/20/16 05:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

What's far left about universal health care or working wages?

There are plenty of other developed countries like those in Scandinavia who provide their citizens with a right to health care.
Even though the US is one of the most affluent nations in the world they are still incapable of providing basic needs for their people.

They have the resources but not the political will or leadership to achieve more than corporate lobbying from Democratic AND Republican representatives like Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Great Scott]
    #23852194 - 11/20/16 05:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

For whatever reason in Europe they call it social democracy, and the Bernie movement was called democratic socialism.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: sudly]
    #23852214 - 11/20/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Free Healthcare is not a fundamental right. It's a charitable gift.


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