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OfflineHedonist
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Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders.
    #23844671 - 11/18/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So I can be a bit a bit alt right, but you don't need to be right wing to see the lunacy of open borders.

If you are pro open borders, I am curious why.
How will it benefit you, and the world around you?

Why is open borders better, than a world where everyone has some territory to sustain them.


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hedonist]
    #23844684 - 11/18/16 09:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

In the future I can see the whole world as one unit. The places with a certain competitive advantage to make something would specialize and the world would be an efficient machine

not gonna happen anytime soon though


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"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: The Mycologist] * 5
    #23844716 - 11/18/16 09:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Borders are imaginary lines.
Earth is one planet.
Nobody actually owns anything, all will remain here when you or your organization is gone.
Borders are a remaining part of human greed and infantile thinking.


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¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Tmethyl]
    #23844733 - 11/18/16 09:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Many of the celebrity proponents of open borders live in secure communities. George Clooney was really big on immigration until the African and Syrian refugees started camping out near his Italian villa. Rather than welcoming them in, he sold the villa and moved far from any refugees.

Those here who favor such would not be pleased to wake up in the middle of the night with a stranger in their house, and house walls are just another artificial border.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hedonist]
    #23844899 - 11/18/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hedonist said:
Why is open borders better, than a world where everyone has some territory to sustain them.




That seems like a false dichotomy. Are you asking for a justification of opening national borders or eliminating personal property, or something else?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hedonist]
    #23845830 - 11/18/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hedonist said:
So I can be a bit a bit alt right, but you don't need to be right wing to see the lunacy of open borders.

If you are pro open borders, I am curious why.
How will it benefit you, and the world around you?

Why is open borders better, than a world where everyone has some territory to sustain them.




The bodies of animals have skins for a reason,
plant cells have walls,
animal cells have membranes

houses have walls
food bowls don't have holes in the bottom

the earth has tectonic plates
water has surface tension

and are those arguing in favor of no boundaries going around nude?

do men want other men to respect their daughter's boundaries?

the idea of "no borders" - it's all just more conceptual baloney


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: laughingdog] * 3
    #23846001 - 11/18/16 05:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

actually i think borders are the concepts in this case moreso than 'no borders'

animals have give no thoughts of borders when they migrate

i am for the position of free migration worldwide, as that makes sense to me. many people opposed to such a notion are themselves descendants of immigrants in their countries - even the Natives migrated there at one point!

the argument against no borders stems from the issue of governance. i think if we can 'evolve' enough as a species, we will go beyond needing such systems in place. who knows when that will be.

and being for 'no borders' doesn't mean being against personal property or walls on houses, just that people should be able to travel and live anywhere on mother earth without paperwork, visas, etc. it may be a bit of a pipe dream at this point, but i cannot deny how much sense it makes to me :smile:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: deff] * 2
    #23846109 - 11/18/16 05:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
actually i think borders are the concepts in this case moreso than 'no borders'

animals have give no thoughts of borders when they migrate

i am for the position of free migration worldwide, as that makes sense to me. many people opposed to such a notion are themselves descendants of immigrants in their countries - even the Natives migrated there at one point!

the argument against no borders stems from the issue of governance. i think if we can 'evolve' enough as a species, .... just that people should be able to travel and live anywhere on mother earth without paperwork, visas, etc. it may be a bit of a pipe dream at this point,...




nice ideas but so idealistic as to be pure fantasy...

mostly in life we are protected by chance
it just happens you don't live next door to a hell's angles gang, mafia head quarters, a crack house etc and many other highly undesirable situations - the world is full of such nefarious stuff - so partly you are protected by chance and partly by the stuff you claim to dislike: passports, police, zoning laws, water quality laws, pollution laws etc etc

"animals have give no thoughts of borders when they migrate"

exactly! ... when not migrating they kill each other over territory, and mark territory with piss

and even a roving wolf pack has a very clear hierarchy, which is stricktly enforced

no boundries is a nice temporary situation within a context that does have boundries,
such as the famous Woodstock festival - but modern civilization could not function long without lots of structure, imo


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: laughingdog] * 3
    #23846167 - 11/18/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well i should clarify - it is possible to have borders and still allow free migration, such as is the case with state borders in the US. individual states can maintain differences in laws and such, and yet people are free to move to any state they choose. on a world-wide level this would likely require some form of international government, which raises some red flags because the people pushing for power of such a one world government are usually selfish in their motives i think. that said, there is nothing inherently negative about a worldwide form of governance that still allows individual countries to sub-govern, much like the EU does (not saying the EU is ideal, but as a model of what is possible).

i should clarify though that i see such a situation as an ideal, as a vision for a golden age of humanity. i understand that there are reasons why it won't manifest at this time, but i do feel it will emerge eventually for humanity, not sure when. i think if there are advanced extraterrestrial civilizations, more advanced than humanity currently, they would not have such geographical restrictions as nation states that we do. :smile:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23846225 - 11/18/16 06:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Many of the celebrity proponents of open borders live in secure communities. George Clooney was really big on immigration until the African and Syrian refugees started camping out near his Italian villa. Rather than welcoming them in, he sold the villa and moved far from any refugees.

Those here who favor such would not be pleased to wake up in the middle of the night with a stranger in their house, and house walls are just another artificial border.




Maybe your house walls are artificial, mine were made by men, for men.



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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: deff] * 2
    #23846547 - 11/18/16 08:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

(migrating) animals have give no thoughts of borders when they migrate





Put your hand in a hornets nest or a viper's den. Animals do indeed have borders.

Large predators mark their territory with urine or musk.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #23846672 - 11/18/16 09:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think this argument is a waste of time because OP never defined what he meant by "open borders."


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full blown human


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Tmethyl] * 2
    #23846743 - 11/18/16 09:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Borders are imaginary lines.
Earth is one planet.
Nobody actually owns anything, all will remain here when you or your organization is gone.
Borders are a remaining part of human greed and infantile thinking.




Sweden opened their borders, look what happened

Quote:

Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa. 




Infantile thinking is ignoring these facts and thinking this is ok.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hobozen] * 4
    #23846767 - 11/18/16 09:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Better to be raped than be labelled a bigot. :crazy:

Can we bring back the Vikings?


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Tmethyl] * 1
    #23847068 - 11/18/16 10:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Borders are imaginary lines.
Earth is one planet.
Nobody actually owns anything, all will remain here when you or your organization is gone.
Borders are a remaining part of human greed and infantile thinking.



Walloped it.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23847109 - 11/18/16 10:50 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Do you lock your car or house doors?


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #23847386 - 11/19/16 01:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Nothing wrong with personal property(or personal space). Doesn't mean you need to own, or claim you own more than your own personal needs require.
Shouldn't really be a debate.. bee's have a hive that they claim their own, people can have a place to claim their own, however a fictitious organization(government) should not claim to own portions of the planet.


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¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Tmethyl] * 1
    #23847405 - 11/19/16 02:14 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Very arbitrary "rules" you just made up there.


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23847419 - 11/19/16 02:31 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Wouldn't call it a rule, just the way living creatures live. Bee's use a hive, birds use a nest, humans tend to also build structures to live in.
Only humans draw imaginary lines(around area they don't personally reside) and claim they own the space contained within.


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¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Tmethyl] * 2
    #23847663 - 11/19/16 07:59 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

you know in toronto we sometimes don't lock the doors.

all ages of every race and creed circulate on the street and sidewalk right in front of our place (there is a store downstairs and we live above it)

we once had a strange guy enter late at night, while we were in bed watching netflix, and yell out if "is this a night club?!"

I try to lock doors.

nothing bad has happened when I forget which is half the time.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineHedonist
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23848432 - 11/19/16 12:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ok well I think borders are natural. The problem with the left is it's anthropocentric, believing that culture completely divides us from nature. Every organism needs a habitat a territory on which to sustain itself. No Borders means everyone floods the good places until there is not enough to go around.  We are dependant on resources and land.  Many of you seem to have forgotten that.
Marxist ideology in general presents an artificial way of living.

I don't know what the best system is yet.  But it should surly take human nature into account, and use it to create the best result possible.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23849543 - 11/19/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Better to be raped than be labelled a bigot. :crazy:

Can we bring back the Vikings?




Fran Tarkenton is too old.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hedonist]
    #23849678 - 11/19/16 07:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There's a river across most of the US and Mexican border and building an actual wall would be logistically impractical and fragrantly expensive.


The best Trump has offered is two barb wire fences in some apparent crossing hot spots.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (11/19/16 07:27 PM)


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Invisiblephio


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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hedonist]
    #23849728 - 11/19/16 07:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Borders exist for a reason and are natural.
Take a look at all of creation at the macro and micro scale and name one case in which there isn't a 'border'.

The data packets you are using to communicate over the internet right now have borders.
It helps you distinguish between data frames so everything isn't a jumbled mess.

Your body has a physical border (biggest organ you have: skin) to protect it from undesired and outside forces.

Cells have borders. Your brain has a blood barrier to prevent harmful things from entering a very unprotected zone of your body.

Why would a country have a border and why should it be protected?
Because different countries have different laws, customs, and cultures.
In order to preserve and respect them as liberals claim they want to do, you have to have a clear line as to what is what at the point of intersection between two different and sometimes conflicting places.

For example, your brain and your eyes function on a completely different biological basis than the rest of your body. So, they have very strict and militarized borders separating them so both sides stay safe and preserved.. At points of exchange, you establish and agree upon mutually beneficial rules that both parties agree upon.

This scales up and down to almost everything in the known universe.


It should be clear to any human being with half a brain as to why borders exist.
The only people who seem to be confused about it are those who haven't learned or faced any real world consequences from not having any. As such, being against borders is a position of ignorance and in some cases its willful.


Example case :
If we took you from (safe bubble head city) and put you on the border of mexico where drug lords and gangs from another country frequent and you get robbed at gun point and have your wife/daughter raped while a coked up drug runner cuts your wife's ear off for a souvenir and shots you in the leg on the way out, I'm sure you wouldn't be an idiot who doesn't lock their doors at night and is a proponent of open borders.

This is a reality for some people in this country. To say 'who cares' or 'fuck those' people is unAmerican.

But, some ignorant person off in paradise city far removed from such realities who has no compassion for their fellow country man would probably say something vile like : Well, that doesn't happen 'often' or 'ever' where i'm at so screw the Americans whose lives are ruined by a policy... and this is why a certain party lost the election. As there are tons of people who are not living in the lap of luxury in this country who face harsh realities... And i guess they returned the favor and said 'fuck you' back.

Harmful things exist in this world. People make mistakes.
Borders allow a person to be aware that they are crossing from x to y and that there are potential consequences for doing so. This gives the 'border' crosser an opportunity to correct and avoid consequences and that allows the other person to feel safe/secure and conduct their life with grace knowing that another human being has advanced warning given to them before they violate the norms, customs, cultures, and laws of another place.


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Invisiblephio


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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: phio]
    #23849742 - 11/19/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

On more comment...
With the amount of information being made available to human beings via ever advancing technologies, maintaining positions centered on ignorance will have ever increasing consequences.

Borders are a fundamental concept that any adult should understand.
The fact that people aren't able to understand something so basic means that consequences are on the horizon and maybe when those consequences walk through your open/nonexistent door and harm you, the point will be driven home.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: phio] * 2
    #23849904 - 11/19/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If you don't have a border you don't have a country.  Humans are naturally tribal, that's never going away.

Look at what happened when the EU decided to open its borders for Africans and Middle Eastern migrants two years ago, it's turned into a complete social and economic disaster.


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Invisiblephio


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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: qman]
    #23850023 - 11/19/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
If you don't have a border you don't have a country.  Humans are naturally tribal, that's never going away.

Look at what happened when the EU decided to open its borders for Africans and Middle Eastern migrants two years ago, it's turned into a complete social and economic disaster.




Indeed. Interestingly, the women who are now seemingly the biggest victims of this tragedy were the most silent and supportive :

as good men spoke out against the potentials for disaster :


Now as bands of refugees roam the streets raping and pillaging, I wonder who they cry out to for justice and order.... Interesting given the heightened backdrop of women's rights...


Overall, It seems that such fundamental understanding is wiped from the collective conscious on a cyclical basis so as to regulate people to relearning the hard lessons that were learned in previous cycle of human history ongoing for 1000s of years. I guess it regulates the pace of things.... Maybe its a feature not a bug.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: phio] * 1
    #23862054 - 11/23/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Why can't we rape indiscriminately here in the USA? :crankey:

Oh wait, I almost forgot about frat parties! :cookiemonster:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23862077 - 11/23/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

And affluent people.



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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23862617 - 11/24/16 05:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

so regular people need borders around everything since the consequences can sneak in at any weak spot in their homes and daily pathways.
but affluent people need double borders around them so that their servants are protected from consequences and so that they are protected from their servants.

it's like wearing two condoms at once to be be privileged.

after all, people who live in glass houses should not stow thrones.

------

on an obscurely related matter, if you are lucky enough to have boarders be sure to collect competitive rent.

------

also change your locks if the boarders change


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23862626 - 11/24/16 05:56 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Affluent people can buy power in good lawyers to get the best outcome with the least severity.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblebirdeatingspider
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hedonist]
    #23867252 - 11/25/16 08:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It seems to me the people who fight tooth and nail to enforce boundaries are at odds with an out of control life.  Where their property line ends they have closed off theirselves from the rest of the world, fortified by ego.

I do believe it is natural and important to have boundaries, but am not sure if a wall falls into either of those categories. 

Despite being religious about locking my doors, someone once smashed my windows to steal a head unit and cds- one of the most endearing qualities of human nature is charismatic drive.  Where there's a will there's a way.

Quote:

In a 2011 New Yorker article discussing how Portugal has fared since decriminalizing, the author spoke with a doctor who discussed the vans that patrol cities with chemical alternatives to the hard drugs that addicts are trying to wean themselves off of. The doctor reflected on the spectacle of people lining up at the van, still slaves of addiction, but defended the act: "Perhaps it is a national failing, but I prefer moderate hope and some likelihood of success to the dream of perfection and the promise of failure."



- https://m.mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening#.mvplIwQyr


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From all I may be, or have been before,
To mingle with the Universe, and feel
What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: Hedonist] * 1
    #23868994 - 11/26/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

America once faced a great fork in the road: isolationism  v.  globalism
isolation(ism), while a more difficult path on a governing entity, spurs internal growth, advancement, infrastructure improvements, and allows for a focus on a smaller percentage of political/economic issues, and a potential focus on public health.

isolationism does not allow for empire. 

globalism (empiricism) allows for rapid growth of wealth (for those who have the wealth or the means to attain the wealth).  it preys upon the weakest, the "others", and creates division/castes outside that of an already established, internal social hierarchy.

this can be related to a feeding regimen for a plant and the fauna associated with it (bacteria).  if isolationism is the standard feeding regimen of medium-to-long-term nutrient availability, globalism is the same regimen with molasses (or another simple sugar) added.  The simple sugars in molasses allow for mass, rapid booms/busts of bacteria in soil/roots.  Bacteria are able to reproduce more readily in the presence of easily digestable food.  As more bacteria are present, they consume more and reproduce more; compounding.  The bacteria eventually consume ALL readily available resources, and then die-off en masse, resulting in signficantly less bacteria in the soil/roots than before the molasses was applied.  With less bacteria, the plants are less able to take up nutrients, slowing the overall process of growth/thriving.


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channel your inner Larry David


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Offlinefinalexplosion
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Re: Can someone write an argument in favor of open borders. [Re: demiu5]
    #23870740 - 11/26/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Its factual that certain ideologies do not belong. The same can be said of certain cultures and or religious beliefs with barbaric actions towards people. If there is collusion amongst terrorists and those that support evil, it should be blocked at all costs. There is evidence documented of people celebrating 9/11. Its pretty fucked up that anybody could do that and celebrate such a tragic event in history. Open boarders contradicts strengthening a country. We all immigrated from somewhere. There is a means of entering a country legally. Every country should sift through the crap holes and pull out the best of the lot not every spineless wonder.


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The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.


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