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InvisibleRahz
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An idea on God
    #23842972 - 11/17/16 06:36 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Humans are the only animals to conceive of God. Or are we? God is an inference, and that quality might make humans unique but the circumstances that give rise to the inference may not be as unique. God might be found in the natural genetic bias of one's own species. Whether we're talking about a nest of ants or den of wolves, that bias represents the concept of something greater than one's self. The actions of a local population tend toward cooperation. But the inference of God is not logically self evident in the same way a "hive" is really just a bunch of bees. Anthropomorphing the experience with the bigger brains we have tends to affirm things we find important about ourselves and our social behavior. There is a tangible pull toward positive interactions and social cohesion, and the imagination provides the image which spins into worship and religious authority as well as law and order on several levels of societal function. These are things humans do that some other animals also do to some degree and/or might tend to do if given more intelligence. They can't create images of themselves though and therefore don't seem to believe in God. Only humans can believe in God because we're capable of doing it.

Whether or not it's true is a different matter but as the saying goes, anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

Another old saying, we're too smart for our own good and not as smart as we think we are.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23843027 - 11/17/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

God is a Korat I gave some fish to tonight.  What a pretty God indeed she purred.  God is a perty Korat with all of that.

Oh wait, your God.  I don't think I give a crap about your God.

So sorry!


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23843040 - 11/17/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

After spending a lot of time watching animals I think it's like this.

Life is naturally right next to God. Only by delusion and arrogance can you remove yourself from God's presence. Humans are capable of more of this than any creature on account of our massive brains.

Thus, humans actually know the least about God.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23843058 - 11/17/16 06:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

many Different things are meant by the word 'god'

seems to me the most important distinction is between a personal god

and an impersonal nondualisitc notion of beingness 'behind' manifestation.

I would define the idea of a personal god as what is found in the bible koran etc.
ie. he listens to prayer, is good, is all powerful, and seems accompanied by the idea that he cares about you, and that you have something permanent called a soul. Strangly the more one actually makes the effort to define it the more improbable it becomes to a rational person! Belief seems to be helped by vagueness in this case.

As regards the idea of 'being' I'm not sure what purpose it might serve to have ridgid beliefs about it, that one puts forth.

However as we all know people seem to have an achillies heel for irrational behavior, superstition, fanaticism, predjudice - so religious belief is not really surprising.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23843074 - 11/17/16 06:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think the idea of God is a vertical cultural orientation that came in with civilization, and is not to be found outside of it.  Hunter-gatherers and small-scale agriculturalists did not believe in deities, and had a very animistic way of looking at a world in which an immanent spirituality existed for them as an everyday (but potentially vivid) phenomenon.  In that vein, I feel that animals would not be in a position to posit any gods even if they could, as this horizontal, immanent "divinity" would be the natural outlet of their spiritual constellation.

By "vertical" I mean the religious and theistic sacred authority structures attendant to hierarchical civilization.  By "horizontal" I mean the lack of that, immanence, and an egalitarian framework.

None of this means that God does or does not exist.  In horizontal cultures the notion of God doesn't even come up.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: An idea on God [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23843102 - 11/17/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If you were to dream tonight, and you dreamed of yourself being in this dream, on a beach.
Both the outside world(beach) and the person who you're dreaming yourself to be(inside world) are happening at the same time.
To the perspective of your 'dream' self, you see an apparently outside world(beach) compared to your inner world.
However both the beach and the 'dream' self are creations of your sleeping mind laying in your bed.
The awareness in that dream was neither the beach nor the dreamed self, yet it was there.

Now, here, you are awake.
You see an apparently outside world and a separate self who is not part of that world.
But you are only the awareness of both of these, just as in the dream.

God, Awareness, Consciousness, I, Beingness, Now, all the same thing.


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Tmethyl]
    #23843150 - 11/17/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

good explaination Tmethyl

but I suspect attachment to this concept, ie. turning it into a belief, is another pitfall or sandtrap.

When one is happy it is not necessary to form a belief about it, as soon as a belief is formed, and even worse as soon as it is regularly repeated the spontaneity goes out of it.

Same with experiencing peace or silence, as soon as a big deal is made of it it vanishes, does it not?


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: An idea on God [Re: laughingdog]
    #23843386 - 11/17/16 08:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

All beliefs arise and fall in awareness. There is nowhere to turn.
"what you are looking for, is where you're looking from."


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Tmethyl]
    #23843414 - 11/17/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
....
"what you are looking for, is where you're looking from."




indeed


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: An idea on God [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23843518 - 11/17/16 09:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hunter-gatherers and small-scale agriculturalists did not believe in deities, and had a very animistic way of looking at a world in which an immanent spirituality existed for them as an everyday (but potentially vivid) phenomenon.  In that vein, I feel that animals would not be in a position to posit any gods even if they could, as this horizontal, immanent "divinity" would be the natural outlet of their spiritual constellation.





Perhaps, but in your example the difference between a spirit/deity and God is not substantial. They are both inferences that something exists that is unseen/unprovable. If civilization causes theism then it's just because there are more people with leisure time sitting around inferring things based on an imagination influenced by genetic biases, but it does make sense that there would be a template where material objects were attributed experienced qualities first and then a connection was made between them all, an interconnection which represented an omnipotent and singular spirit... that was very human like of course.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23843558 - 11/17/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hunter-gatherers and small-scale agriculturalists did not believe in deities, and had a very animistic way of looking at a world in which an immanent spirituality existed for them as an everyday (but potentially vivid) phenomenon.  In that vein, I feel that animals would not be in a position to posit any gods even if they could, as this horizontal, immanent "divinity" would be the natural outlet of their spiritual constellation.





Perhaps, but in your example the difference between a spirit/deity and God is not substantial. They are both inferences that something exists that is unseen/unprovable. If civilization causes theism then it's just because there are more people with leisure time sitting around inferring things based on an imagination influenced by genetic biases, but it does make sense that there would be a template where material objects were attributed experienced qualities first and then a connection was made between them all, an interconnection which represented an omnipotent and singular spirit... that was very human like of course.




Yes, that is an interesting clarification of your original post, and seems true.  There was a fluidity between horizontal and vertical cultures, and what changed was the expression of spirituality, but not necessarily the fundamental character of it.  I think the morphology between the two configurations is anthropologically more complex than simply having more leisure time, but basically the same set of instincts, for lack of a better word, is involved in both.  How animals factor into the equation I'm really not quite sure.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: An idea on God [Re: viktor]
    #23843607 - 11/17/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
After spending a lot of time watching animals I think it's like this.

Life is naturally right next to God. Only by delusion and arrogance can you remove yourself from God's presence. Humans are capable of more of this than any creature on account of our massive brains.

Thus, humans actually know the least about God.




Agreed, but we may also be closer to God in a way. Tapping into that creativity. As we evolve, I think we grow more in tune with this creative process. New organs that allow us to experience new realms of consciousness which allow us to manifest this creative process more easily and apparently into our shared experience. In this way, we are closer to God than some animals. The internet is a good example.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: An idea on God [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23843884 - 11/18/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Good points. Maybe the roots of animism and modern religion are deeper in a place where thought and feeling are more synonymous. Being human creates the possibility of non-material entities and conjecture about the nature of reality. Humans can screw things up in ways other animals don't have the ability to.

It's difficult for me to imagine how a star might have a spirit or be a deity, or for that matter why I would want to pray 5 times a day in a specific direction, or get dunked in water for the lord, or believe in ghosts, vampires, angels or demons, or that rocks have spirits. Perhaps civilization is to blame for religion, but it seems to eventually lean atheism. Is it possible to return to a world without belief and what would it be like?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23844080 - 11/18/16 03:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

An Idea about God. There is no God. You have no evidence. And I have no evidence, because evidence of a ludicrous idea is impossible,  except that every scientific finding and supported theory goes against everything that God believers think. It's really getting pathetic that we have to keep doing this.

      But I was forced to listen to this shit for 16 years, and you would think I would be over it, but I'm not. When irrationality gets shoved in your face, you become  combative.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Tmethyl]
    #23844286 - 11/18/16 06:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
If you were to dream tonight, and you dreamed of yourself being in this dream, on a beach.
Both the outside world(beach) and the person who you're dreaming yourself to be(inside world) are happening at the same time.
To the perspective of your 'dream' self, you see an apparently outside world(beach) compared to your inner world.
However both the beach and the 'dream' self are creations of your sleeping mind laying in your bed.
The awareness in that dream was neither the beach nor the dreamed self, yet it was there.

Now, here, you are awake.
You see an apparently outside world and a separate self who is not part of that world.
But you are only the awareness of both of these, just as in the dream.

God, Awareness, Consciousness, I, Beingness, Now, all the same thing.






--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23844301 - 11/18/16 06:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
An Idea about God. There is no God. You have no evidence. And I have no evidence, because evidence of a ludicrous idea is impossible,  except that every scientific finding and supported theory goes against everything that God believers think. It's really getting pathetic that we have to keep doing this.

      But I was forced to listen to this shit for 16 years, and you would think I would be over it, but I'm not. When irrationality gets shoved in your face, you become  combative.




:lol: Well you didn't read the OP or you're butt hurt about it, or both.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23844329 - 11/18/16 07:00 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Hunter-gatherers and small-scale agriculturalists did not believe in deities, and had a very animistic way of looking at a world in which an immanent spirituality existed for them as an everyday (but potentially vivid) phenomenon.  In that vein, I feel that animals would not be in a position to posit any gods even if they could, as this horizontal, immanent "divinity" would be the natural outlet of their spiritual constellation.





Perhaps, but in your example the difference between a spirit/deity and God is not substantial. They are both inferences that something exists that is unseen/unprovable. If civilization causes theism then it's just because there are more people with leisure time sitting around inferring things based on an imagination influenced by genetic biases, but it does make sense that there would be a template where material objects were attributed experienced qualities first and then a connection was made between them all, an interconnection which represented an omnipotent and singular spirit... that was very human like of course.




This stuff is so BASIC.  It's always about power, control, or money.  The Catholic Church who touts being in routine communication with God has all three, in spades. The Church yields its power over those who chose to worship "their" (ha ha like they had any choice in the selection) God every sunday or whatever day is chosen.  God is a construct to make people scared, or behave, to obey, to do so out of both fear obligation and some sense that there is this magic God out there waiting to send them to a Hell if they don't.

The rest of any analysis on this subject is unnecessary.  Once one is brainwashed there is no way to change that.  Reprogramming doesn't work when one is told God is real for years and years.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Rahz]
    #23844525 - 11/18/16 08:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Good points. Maybe the roots of animism and modern religion are deeper in a place where thought and feeling are more synonymous. Being human creates the possibility of non-material entities and conjecture about the nature of reality. Humans can screw things up in ways other animals don't have the ability to.




Yes, I think that's right.

Quote:

It's difficult for me to imagine how a star might have a spirit or be a deity, or for that matter why I would want to pray 5 times a day in a specific direction, or get dunked in water for the lord, or believe in ghosts, vampires, angels or demons, or that rocks have spirits. Perhaps civilization is to blame for religion, but it seems to eventually lean atheism.




Yeah, I'm not religious, either, so I have a hard time relating to a lot of that as well.  But if that's what people want to do, of course I'm not going to suggest anyone stop them.  Things are leaning atheist in many of the important circles now, but that may be some sort of folly as well, I'm not really sure. :shrug:

Quote:

Is it possible to return to a world without belief and what would it be like?




I think an awful lot of people have given this an awful lot of thought, and of course nobody knows.  There are many futurist/scifi writers who go into such things.  Maybe we'll find out and maybe we won't; the future will probably take shape in a way that nobody predicted.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: An idea on God [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23844753 - 11/18/16 10:00 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
An Idea about God. There is no God. You have no evidence. And I have no evidence, because evidence of a ludicrous idea is impossible,  except that every scientific finding and supported theory goes against everything that God believers think. It's really getting pathetic that we have to keep doing this.

      But I was forced to listen to this shit for 16 years, and you would think I would be over it, but I'm not. When irrationality gets shoved in your face, you become  combative.





How do you explain the bible? Or any religious text for that matter.. How come majority of people can see and feel the difference between good and evil?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: An idea on God [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23844843 - 11/18/16 10:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
The rest of any analysis on this subject is unnecessary.




Alex disagrees.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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