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InvisibleTFI
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Flaws in the theory of evolution
    #23840933 - 11/17/16 08:42 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Not here to try and convert anyone but i have a few questions about the evolution of man. I personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but thats me. Now me questions lol

1. if we are so evolved and our relatives are monkeys, why did man loose his fur and strength in hands and feet?

2. If we evolved from animals why can man not survive the seasons without building something for shelter or clothing or fire?

3. Why is man the only species that cultivates food such as farming and ranching?


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OfflineSolivagant
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23840946 - 11/17/16 08:49 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

1. We did not evolve from monkeys.

2. Because humans were never meant to live in places that get that cold. And several animals also have to seek shelter.

3. It's not.


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Offlinenumnum59
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23840950 - 11/17/16 08:52 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

1)a. possibly to help keep our evolved brains from overheating
B. As an evolutionary way to shed the fleas and ticks and such, without fur its harder for them to hide
C. As a sexual evolution much in the way a peacock has its feathers, furless humans could show off healthy skin. Thus being more sexually desireable

2) i think we could survive or the bare minimum, i just think this statement could be construed as more of a comfort thing.

3) because we had to learn cultivation of food to sustain our populations and also to move away from a nomadic lifestyle. Our brains are evolved enough to use tools and better ourselves in many ways


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23840962 - 11/17/16 08:59 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

1.  Man lost his fur to keep his brain from overheating.  The need to keep a cool head is what made us the naked ape.  We do not know for sure why we lost our primate strength, but it is theorized that since the human brain has much higher energy requirements, our muscles had to lose out in our development.

2.  As the poster above said, humans evolved in a more or less equatorial/tropical environment.  The temperature was in an ideal range all year long.  Northern tribes in Europe, for example, developed a cultural evolution in habitat technology to remain alive in colder climes after migrating there for whatever reason.

3.  Man in his natural state does not cultivate food or engage in farming of any kind.  When agriculture appeared in the Fertile Crescent ~10,000 ya, it was a cultural change, not a biological one.  We do not know why agriculture formed in the way that it did, because it is a much more difficult way to make a living than foraging.  Some think it was population pressure, some think it was an ideological revolution -- we simply don't know.  But ultimately the answer to your question is that we engage in it, in part, because we are the only species with the brains and the opposable thumbs to do so.  How it began remains a mystery.


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OfflineSolivagant
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23840966 - 11/17/16 09:00 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

We're not the only species that farms.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Solivagant]
    #23840972 - 11/17/16 09:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

No other species farms on anywhere near the level we do.  That other species may farm is academic.


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OfflineSolivagant
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23840983 - 11/17/16 09:05 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

No, it's not. And who cares about "on the level we do." Just because we do it bigger doesn't mean we should treat it like something unique to us. Ants farm fungus and feed millions off it. Sounds like a pretty high level to me.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Solivagant]
    #23841002 - 11/17/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

What relevance does ant farming have?  Human farming happens for totally different reasons, other than the obvious one to feed people.  Moreover, human farming happens for cultural reasons, not sociobiological ones.


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OfflineSolivagant
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #23841018 - 11/17/16 09:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's relevant because the op acted like humans are the only species that's farms and that that's a flaw in the theory of evolution. To go on without acknowledging that we are far from the only creatures to farm would be silly. And I don't see what "reasoning" has to do with his question. The motives to farm have nothing to do with the question "why are we the only ones to farm?" When we in fact are not.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Solivagant] * 2
    #23841031 - 11/17/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

That's a good answer. :thumbup:

I see where you are coming from now.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23841065 - 11/17/16 09:37 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Not here to try and convert anyone but i have a few questions about the evolution of man. I personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but thats me. Now me questions lol

1. if we are so evolved and our relatives are monkeys, why did man loose his fur and strength in hands and feet?

2. If we evolved from animals why can man not survive the seasons without building something for shelter or clothing or fire?

3. Why is man the only species that cultivates food such as farming and ranching?





1. Are you aware that many Christians believe in the theory of evolution? Look up the founder of the Human Genome Project. Thus your preface has no bearing.

2. Questions are not flaws. All they do is reveal your ignorance on the subject. (Loose? Really?)

3. Why not either actually study the subject, if it is important to you, and/or go to a biology website rather than a philosophy forum for better insight into the mechanisms of evolution? I don't go to a gardening forum when I have a problem with my automobile engine.


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Solivagant]
    #23841076 - 11/17/16 09:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ok good answers.

Solivgant: the reason i bring up farming is because we substain our population off farms and ranching all of our meat and fruits veggies come from farm/ranches. When was the last time anyone saw a group of animals irrigating land to substain their population growth? And why does man seek to further his population compared to animals who just seek to basically live or do what animals do

About why we lost our hair and strength is always a wild answer but none have come close to me. If man had hair and was like a monkey to an extent wouldnt we have kept that for winter survival? Kept our tails for balance? Evolution to me would me that man gets better not worse, why would we lose our hair to only farm cotton for clothes destroying miles upon miles of natural land only to build clothes. How many trees has man killed in order to build shelter? Animals basically hunker down and survive the cold fronts and storms as where we run and seek our home that we built.. If you really watch nature everything recycles and plays a major role in which nature can recycle and continue.. Man has no place in that recycle system.. We build and destroy


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23841084 - 11/17/16 09:44 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Orgoneconclusion: like many liberals you didnt answer the question lol


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23841107 - 11/17/16 09:57 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Apparently you have no idea how to debate. Attacking the person is a standard ploy of the ignorant and has no place in philosophical discussion.

I would wager heavily that you have failed to read the very simple rules of the forum and the Fallacies sticky thread. That would be a good beginning.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23841155 - 11/17/16 10:16 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Ok good answers.

Solivgant: the reason i bring up farming is because we substain our population off farms and ranching all of our meat and fruits veggies come from farm/ranches. When was the last time anyone saw a group of animals irrigating land to substain their population growth? And why does man seek to further his population compared to animals who just seek to basically live or do what animals do

About why we lost our hair and strength is always a wild answer but none have come close to me. If man had hair and was like a monkey to an extent wouldnt we have kept that for winter survival? Kept our tails for balance? Evolution to me would me that man gets better not worse, why would we lose our hair to only farm cotton for clothes destroying miles upon miles of natural land only to build clothes. How many trees has man killed in order to build shelter? Animals basically hunker down and survive the cold fronts and storms as where we run and seek our home that we built.. If you really watch nature everything recycles and plays a major role in which nature can recycle and continue.. Man has no place in that recycle system.. We build and destroy




Did you even read my post?  We evolved in a tropical/subtropical habitat, so that the loss of fur would not have adversely affected our ability to make a living.  Other considerations became necessary as we migrated.  There is no winter in the tropics. :facepalm:

Also, all animals seek to augment their populations.  That is the entire essence of survival.  Passing on genes.  Every single species in the world, from microorganisms to three-toed sloths, is engaged in that activity.

This point will probably be very much lost on you, but civilization occurs for cultural reasons in the end -- we have not changed biologically in over 100,000 years, but civilization as we know it is 8-10,000 years old.  Man does not farm naturally.  A subtle point, so please think about it before you dismiss it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23841189 - 11/17/16 10:26 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Having an agenda is a far cry from seeking the truth. That much was obvious from the beginning of this thread.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23841210 - 11/17/16 10:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Very true.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum] * 3
    #23841265 - 11/17/16 10:56 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"I don't want to convert anyone, but I will mention something personal that has nothing to do with evolution."

Intellectual dishonesty at its lowest. :thumbdown:


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23841293 - 11/17/16 11:04 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Divided: i understand theirs no winter in tropics but that dosent explain why man would lose necassary items for survival. The point im trying to light up and nobody has seemed to come across (friends and you guys) is that if were evolving why did we lose our ability to survive the weather? To me (not trying to push my agenda or make you feel stupid by any means) it makes no since why we would lose parts of our body that would be essential for survial only to farm and grow something (clothing material) that we already had., that to me seems like evolution going backwards, were the only species that wears clothes and builds things.

Orgoneconclusion: yet to answer lol but i see where your coming from, forgive my stupidity


The way i look at it is (and keep in mind im a simpleton who still follows the teachings of a book passed down threw time) that it makes absolutely zero sense to get further from nature as we have, if were evolving why did we drop all the essentials needed for basic survival, why do we build homes and cities? If man was from nature why are we so destructive towards nature? Everything and i mean everything man touches goes to shit.. We build cars and decided to drill for oil to run said car instead of keeping horses around. We cut down living legends only to produce paper and homes. We farm the land because its hard to follow a pack of animals or find enough fruit to substain for 20 years in a single area. To me personally if we came from chimps we should follow the chimps but man simply cannot live in the wild without making tools or building something. Why would we evolve to lose that?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 2
    #23841349 - 11/17/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You still have not listed a single flaw.

Have you taken even a basic course in evolution? Do you even know what it means?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23841364 - 11/17/16 11:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There are answers for all of these questions, some of which have already been given.  On the fur issue, I replied above:

Quote:

1.  Man lost his fur to keep his brain from overheating.  The need to keep a cool head is what made us the naked ape.  We do not know for sure why we lost our primate strength, but it is theorized that since the human brain has much higher energy requirements, our muscles had to lose out in our development.




Is that not a sufficient answer? 

We also started to farm well after we evolved into our current form, which I also covered.  To answer your question adequately would take an anthropological treatise that is far from the scope of this thread.

But that's enough polite banter from me, I'm with OC in the sense that I don't think you really want answers.  You've gotten a few and ignored them.  Whatever.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23841388 - 11/17/16 11:31 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

TFI your confusion is due to different meanings of the word 'evolution' and your not knowing there are different meanings.

Yes colloquially evolution may mean perfection, as in: "Look how my drawing, or novel, or hook shot evolved until I got it just right".

But biologically it has a different meaning, having to do with adaptation, reproductive fitness in a particular time and place, and so on. It is understandable by a layman willing to invest a little time, but a little too complex to expect anyone on this message board to give a science lesson. The info is readily available, even on youtube no reading necessary, also consider that genetic evidence, in court saves folks incorrectly convicted, from death.

Who knows if you find yourself taking the time to understand how it works you just might actually find it interesting and enjoyable.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23841534 - 11/17/16 12:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Good clarification. :thumbup:

If a creature is alive today it has evolved perfectly, meaning that it adapted to its environment.


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Offlinenumnum59
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23841601 - 11/17/16 12:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Good clarification. :thumbup:

If a creature is alive today it has evolved perfectly, meaning that it adapted to its environment.




an example of this is that our DNA sequence for how we metabolize sugar is the exact same as trees, plants, mushrooms, monkeys (everything in the world). because why would you do it differently if it works so well.


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Offlinenumnum59
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: numnum59]
    #23841608 - 11/17/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

also to OP look at how humans domesticated dogs from wolves. all dogs to date from German shepherds to apple head Chihuahuas came from the same ancestor, wolves. this is artificial selection. we picked the traits we liked and the dogs evolved that way.


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23841618 - 11/17/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well the basis of my questions were like asking if god is real or not? Nobody has a solid answer, nobody really knows. I didnt wanna start a fight or im right your wrong type of deal. I read each reply and simply replied with another question. Like whys my motor broke? Well your spark plugs dont work. Why? Why why? Why! Lmao all of you have givin me things to think about which is what i wanted. I didnt mean to ignore answers as i simply cannot answer some, clearly lmao.

I guess i tend to look into the future of things and see how is it going to continue? everything in nature plays a specifc roll in how tomorrows generation will survive, except man lol we dominate the world and harvest nature to our benfits. I suppose that we evolved into the humans we are today by using our surroundings. That makes sense. What dosent make sense to me is we build. We built these huge cities and run them off fossil fuel. Instead of having a huge grouping of humans in the wild. Everything we use to survive is built by man, the second things break or if we lose our winter clothes we are fucked, better hope the storm passes quick lol. animals dont have to. And if we came from animals why did we lose all that stuff only to destroy the world around us? But you guys have peaked my intrest and ima go try to understand how and where we evolved from.

Im literally laughing at the notion we lost our fur due to overheating but im sure yall are laughing at me for thinking jesus is our lord and savior. Lifes like a mirror, sometimes you see yourself sometimes you see the surroundings behind you. I think im looking at myself here so ima go read lmao


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23841631 - 11/17/16 12:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ok see now i see im wrong on what im trying to pick at. But thats cause every idoit like me takes things for.

What would you call it tho? Mankinds beginning? Cause what i know about evolution is very nill, what they tought me was evolution. Came from monkeys. Evolved into what we are today.. Picking on evolution isnt what im tryin to get at i suppose, hell i guess im not sure what to call it lmao


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23841668 - 11/17/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"well the basis of my questions were like asking if god is real or not?"

depends on how you define God and secondly on what the definition means to you
and thirdly what consequences the answer you decide upon has for you in your life.

Note you have not defined the word 'real' either. Hence my answer hints at how one might  direct their thought process to sort it out - as No one here is your God and can give you the answer, that even "god' apparently is not giving you.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23841672 - 11/17/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

To briefly answer your question about why modern civilization is such a cluster-fuck of toxic cities and mind-numbing exploitation of what remains of the natural world, let me say that:

Populations grew at a small but nonzero rate at certain places during the late Paleolithic and early Neolithic, and in some places population pressure came to a point that foraging was no longer sufficient to sustain the population.  (That's one theory).  What that meant was that crops had to be grown and cared for.  What this also meant was that irrigation became necessary.  And what that meant was that some chief or leader had to be elected to administer the irrigation procedures, and possibly other matters.  Over time this grew more complex.  Animal husbandry became common, religions formed, specialization in artisan, priest and warrior classes (etc.) became the norm, and history unfolded.  What you see around you today is the result so far of the complexification of this process.  Things today are very complicated, but with a little imagination it's not too hard to see how everything evolved culturally from the initial conditions I've mentioned.

Here is an interesting quote from Marvin Harris: "...for the first time there appeared on earth kings, dictators, high priests, emperors, prime ministers, presidents, governors, mayors, generals, admirals, police chiefs, judges, lawyers, and jailers, along with dungeons, jails, penitentiaries, and concentration camps. Under the tutelage of the state, human beings learned for the first time how to bow, grovel, kneel, and kowtow. In many ways the rise of the state was the descent of the world from freedom to slavery."


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23841676 - 11/17/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I never seen a monkey having a human baby.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23841679 - 11/17/16 12:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"Im literally laughing at the notion we lost our fur due to overheating"

fur was not just lost, it goes along with sweating for cooling, we are only mammal that can do this -- do a web search on " hunter gatherer endurance hunting " for the in depth explaination.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23841704 - 11/17/16 01:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
do a web search on " hunter gatherer endurance hunting " for the in depth explaination.



Or just watch this:



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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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Offlinenothing exists
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23841730 - 11/17/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

the fundamental flaw in evolution comes from its basis in geologic gradualism.  gradualism is the mainstream theory of geologic formations and changes.  catastrophism is the actual observed reality.

when you start putting the pieces together, it becomes obvious that there was a great civilization here for many thousands of years that was wiped out by a catastrophe. the unlucky survivors took shelter in caves and relearned to be earthlings on a new surface. from those traumatized few, we have emerged.

biological diversity is waning, not increasing. the natural state of the universe is from order to disorder unless acted on by outside forces. evolution is a failed attempt to refute this basic truth.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: nothing exists]
    #23841759 - 11/17/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I eagerly await your Nobel Prize for deconstructing the theory of evolution , or at the very least, your published white paper in a reputable journal. :waits:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23841779 - 11/17/16 01:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"well the basis of my questions were like asking if god is real or not?"

“That makes sense. What dosent make sense to me is … only to destroy the world around us? “

both your questioning about God or religion and about evolution seems to relate to the question of why is the world and mankind so difficult or messed up.

It might surprise you that while most religions attempt to supply some sort of answer,  (such as “original sin” - or the idea that “bad” people deserve punishment in hell), and prescribe moral behavior as a way to salvation in the afterlife; Buddhism takes as it’s starting point , that we all do indeed suffer, in both obvious and more subtle ways, but proceeds to analyze: how we process our experiences internally, and how this directly affects how much we suffer in each moment.

This different approach allows the individual to experiment and experience answers from their own mind and body (physiology and psychology). As a result it may be more interesting, than being given ‘answers’.

That how we process our experiences internally,  is actually available to our personal investigation, is perhaps a true miracle. And that we can change how we attend to experience, is another.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23842158 - 11/17/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
(... various obliquely related questions answered inline below ...)



1. if we are so evolved and our relatives are monkeys, why did man loose his fur and strength in hands and feet? - evolution involves survival from mutation in a competitive environment. Mutations that express a variety of fur and hair and even scales are very common among mammals - just do a little research on this and you will find it fascinating

2. If we evolved from animals why can man not survive the seasons without building something for shelter or clothing or fire? -Many animals create a den or shells and do not even try to live without their den's or shell. Our homes and clothing are more artful correlates of that - just do a little research on this and you will find it fascinating

3. Why is man the only species that cultivates food such as farming and ranching? - many animals grow crops of fungus to eat or harvest and process bounty from the wild, or herd other animals (like ants herding aphids) - just do a little research on this and you will find it fascinating

if nothing else use Google and ask such questions, one by one, and you will be the wiser for it.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23842379 - 11/17/16 04:09 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'm getting more hair as I get older, does that mean I am devolving?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23842550 - 11/17/16 04:51 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Not here to try and convert anyone but i have a few questions about the evolution of man. I personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but thats me. Now me questions lol

1. if we are so evolved and our relatives are monkeys, why did man loose his fur and strength in hands and feet?

2. If we evolved from animals why can man not survive the seasons without building something for shelter or clothing or fire?

3. Why is man the only species that cultivates food such as farming and ranching?




1. Hominids adapted to not living in jungle trees.

2. We adapted to a lifestyle of technology though people like Bear Grylls are a fine example of humans being able to survive in the wild.

Additionally animals have different physiologies e.g. a polar bear can survive better in the Arctic than a camel.

3. We are not the only animals that cultivate food or perform activities such as farming.
Symbiotic relationships in nature can give rise to farming and cultivation as is seen between the relationship of ant species and aphids in a natural phenomenon called Aphid-Herding.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23842638 - 11/17/16 05:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I eagerly await your Nobel Prize for deconstructing the theory of evolution , or at the very least, your published white paper in a reputable journal. :waits:



it is obvious that people are losing interest in your faked up science religion. no reputable journal has credibility. and neither do their supporters. your club has been inbred to the point of disability. my condolences on your loss.

Quote:

The reason for the mass retraction is mind-blowing: A “peer review and citation ring” was apparently rigging the review process to get articles published.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/10/scholarly-journal-retracts-60-articles-smashes-peer-review-ring/?tid=a_inl


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23842658 - 11/17/16 05:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Get with it gramps, peer review and science are out. Wild speculation is in. you are what's known as a dinosaur.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: nothing exists]
    #23842667 - 11/17/16 05:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Even if it's true that a population of individuals illegitimately reviewed publications it doesn't mean all science in the world is wrong.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: nothing exists] * 1
    #23842713 - 11/17/16 05:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

it is obvious that people are losing interest in your faked up science religion




Now transmit this message to us without using a technological device created through using the scientific method.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #23842719 - 11/17/16 05:32 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crazy_Horse said:
Get with it gramps, peer review and science are out. Wild speculation is in. you are what's known as a
dinosaur.






Don't make me go all "gray" on y'all!


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23842749 - 11/17/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

it is obvious that people are losing interest in your faked up science religion




Now transmit this message to us without using a technological device created through using the scientific method.





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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23842968 - 11/17/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

some of you have degrees or are studying for one, and sure, you want to think you have it all or mostly figured out... you dont, your piece of paper and misguided explorations are worthless, and if you think you learned something because you do stuff and have a job and make a thing then good for you, because the reality is you are a tool of your own oppression, mixing truth and lies to further the confusion that agitates man into emotional reaction, justifying their devious, corrupt protocol, institutionalizing anger in the form of an unasked question, an answer avoided.

if you are a productive part of this society, you are part of the problems you have with it. if you think society in general is alright, then you are an ignore-ant, blissfully bouncing along doing your part in curating the museum of suffering.

science journals are the speartip of religious science, not so gently shaping the narrative, not so secretly tamping down incongruent thought, specializing to avoid the big picture, because overall it looks pretty ragged.

as for the "typing on a computer" monkey squawk, applied science is a different subject. the problem comes when engineers try to apply data from fraudulent or incompetent scientists, they cannot reproduce the results. this happens frequently. so then what about science that cannot be lab reproduced, like solar system formation forces? well, you just take their word for it, you have belief in the messenger, therefore, a religion. especially when that person is held up as an unassailable authority.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: nothing exists]
    #23843114 - 11/17/16 07:09 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

in any population of a specific species you should expect to observe a wide range of expression of features such as hair color, texture, thickness, extent or sparseness, tooth size and alignment, muscle development, skin texture and color, eye size, color or capability, as well as brain functions.

Quote:

Search Results: "percent difference between human and chimp dna"
The recent sequencing of the gorilla, chimpanzee and bonobo genomes confirms that supposition and provides a clearer view of how we are connected: chimps and bonobos in particular take pride of place as our nearest living relatives, sharing approximately 99 percent of our DNA, with gorillas trailing at 98 percent




this is not too surprising, as many humans do look a lot like chimps except for the big toe, word articulation capability, and overall hair distribution.

for intelligence I look for the ability to latch on to concepts, and to let go of them easily - to consider relevant things as conditions change. Just like the prehensile tail and opposing thumb, a prehensile mind lets you swing through concepts as needed.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23843126 - 11/17/16 07:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)




Sorry i had to get a troll punch in


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: numnum59] * 1
    #23843207 - 11/17/16 07:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

funny
when the OP is gone,
who actually had some openness
New believers appear like mushrooms after a rain ...

Who have a double standard or are confused on a deeper level, about what constitutes an explaination.
Supposedly religion explains and provides answers to all important questions, but all it really does is say: " God did it all, so stop asking".
Then the religious folks swallow this illogical  story, seemingly because it allows them to feel secure. It partly helps them feel securer, because all their friends say the same thing. It is like: as if dogs had hands and they were petting each other all the time. So soothing.

So they convince themselves everything has been explained perfectly, and that therefore any contrary evidence must be wrong. It is really a fanatical or arthritic mindset, but passes as normal, in everyday society. Until another religious war breaks out, and all the outsiders can see how silly they are.

So it is because they assume incorrectly not only that everything has been explained, but that their particular brand of religion has THE ONLY RIGHT explanation that they feel they can accurately judge even those things they don’t understand.

This immense arrogance and self righteousness, (to which they are of course totally blind), is what frequently allows them to murder, and torture, (as in the inquisition & closer to home the Salem witch trials - for example).

Not until the time comes to be cured of a genetic disease, or get off of a death row sentence because of DNA evidence, is there much chance for most of them to understand the power of any mind that choses reason over belief.

YMMV


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23843251 - 11/17/16 07:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

This may be a better way of self expression than religion.

The Southern Thunderdome of America in Delaware where the annual CZW Tournament of Death takes place in an act of respectable violence.
It kicks off from 19:00 on.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: nothing exists]
    #23843306 - 11/17/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nothing exists said:
some of you have degrees or are studying for one, and sure, you want to think you have it all or mostly figured out... you dont, your piece of paper and misguided explorations are worthless, and if you think you learned something because you do stuff and have a job and make a thing then good for you, because the reality is you are a tool of your own oppression, mixing truth and lies to further the confusion that agitates man into emotional reaction, justifying their devious, corrupt protocol, institutionalizing anger in the form of an unasked question, an answer avoided.

if you are a productive part of this society, you are part of the problems you have with it. if you think society in general is alright, then you are an ignore-ant, blissfully bouncing along doing your part in curating the museum of suffering.

science journals are the speartip of religious science, not so gently shaping the narrative, not so secretly tamping down incongruent thought, specializing to avoid the big picture, because overall it looks pretty ragged.

as for the "typing on a computer" monkey squawk, applied science is a different subject. the problem comes when engineers try to apply data from fraudulent or incompetent scientists, they cannot reproduce the results. this happens frequently. so then what about science that cannot be lab reproduced, like solar system formation forces? well, you just take their word for it, you have belief in the messenger, therefore, a religion. especially when that person is held up as an unassailable authority.




A word salad with no substance.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23844283 - 11/18/16 06:41 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

What if op was god testing our faith in him? 0_0


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23844343 - 11/18/16 07:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
1.  Man lost his fur to keep his brain from overheating.  The need to keep a cool head is what made us the naked ape.  We do not know for sure why we lost our primate strength, but it is theorized that since the human brain has much higher energy requirements, our muscles had to lose out in our development.

2.  As the poster above said, humans evolved in a more or less equatorial/tropical environment.  The temperature was in an ideal range all year long.  Northern tribes in Europe, for example, developed a cultural evolution in habitat technology to remain alive in colder climes after migrating there for whatever reason.

3.  Man in his natural state does not cultivate food or engage in farming of any kind.  When agriculture appeared in the Fertile Crescent ~10,000 ya, it was a cultural change, not a biological one.  We do not know why agriculture formed in the way that it did, because it is a much more difficult way to make a living than foraging.  Some think it was population pressure, some think it was an ideological revolution -- we simply don't know.  But ultimately the answer to your question is that we engage in it, in part, because we are the only species with the brains and the opposable thumbs to do so.  How it began remains a mystery.




"There you go, man, keep as cool as you can."?



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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: numnum59]
    #23844373 - 11/18/16 07:26 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Haha man this is great reading. After some reading and watching i can see that evolution or adaptation basically the same thing are not what i was picking at but perhaps the theory created by darwin. The idea that whales came from a leopard looking creature was far fetched to me, many many different answers that i couldnt link to eachother.

I wanna know who figured out how to tell the age of rocks.  one site said we have been here 56,000,000 years another stated 2.3 billions years and another said life didnt form till 100,000,000 millions years go...

How the fuck do they know? Someone just built a device that can read the age of anything? i get that looking at the side of a mountain and seeing the different layers of settlement can tell age like the rings on a tree maybe? But 2.3 billions years? Really?

If you go back a simple 1000 years we were killing eachother with sticks and stones and now we have a scope that can zero a target going 50+ mph at 300 yards in under 3 seconds lmao. Nuclear weapons that can wipe out the planet. I find it hard to believe that were that old when our history happend so fast.

Sudly: i love that you bring bear grills into it. Very very few people can live like bear grills. Its estimated that if a emp was to hit our main power grid (chicago area) that half of the population of the united states would be dead by next year. I know for a fact growing up hunting and fishing that 95% of people around my city would die withing a month. You would be suprised how much people dont know anout basic survival yet everyone can sit their and say ahh thats not so hard haha. I have literally watched my friends come with me in a hunting trip, kill something. Squirrel, deer, pigs, birds, even fish. And ruin what they killed trying to skin it, literally couldnt eat cause thy butchered it so bad. How many people living in th city can go kill and properly skin a animal?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23844406 - 11/18/16 07:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Carbon dating. Knowing the half life of carbon and being able to read it or some shit like that


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: numnum59]
    #23844538 - 11/18/16 08:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

google


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23844560 - 11/18/16 08:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Do they have schools in your country?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #23844728 - 11/18/16 09:48 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Lol i wonder how we survived without google


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23845670 - 11/18/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

why do people argue about what they don't understand?

answer

1) because they don't understand it.
and
2) because they think they do

they don't argue with Enistein,'s "theory" of relativity
because they know they don't understand it
but they do argue with Darwins "theory"
because they think they do

No one even knows precisely what life is conceptually.
But we do know that
inside the cell are molecular machines
not mysterious squishy protoplasm energized by a mysterious life force
but nanoscale machines getting energy from biochemical reactions that are understood by very high IQ, highly educated people





and there are many more such amazing videos.

So we do know enough to understand that  the physical body is literally a machine, and we do know enough to alter DNA now and cure a few genetic diseases, and shortly many more will be cured. There is no doubt that the body is a machine, and as such subject to cause and effect both in regards to it's origin and inevitable death. With the advent of cloning and now CRISPR a biological revolution is about to begin that will alter life as much as the computer has done in the last 30 years, or more so. It is under reported because news media prefers: war, murder, politics, and other such stupidity. And the media knows most people like to exercise their preexisting opinions rather than make the effort to learn something new.

Science news sites such as

https://www.sciencedaily.com/breaking/

may help one keep up with the dramatic changes, that will continue to accelerate.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23845715 - 11/18/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Don't forget about the invention of genetically modified glow in the dark jellyfish sheep back in 2013.


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Edited by sudly (11/18/16 04:14 PM)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23846063 - 11/18/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the physical body is literally a machine




No it isn't.

It is an organism; or as Alan Watts put it, an organismenvironment


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: zzripz]
    #23846214 - 11/18/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

the physical body is literally a machine




No it isn't.

It is an organism; or as Alan Watts put it, an organismenvironment




yes you are right, there are different levels.
and at one level
all stuff is atoms (and quarks etc)
then at a 'deeper' level
matter and energy are one

but at the every day level a car is a machine.
sure if it's functioning you can say: "it's an organism and part of the industrial/petrolium complex" or some such idea...
but we take it to a mechanic to fix metal parts

what is surprising is the recent discovery
that at a certain level,
at the nanoscale level
the physical life of the body is not just some sort of mysterious gooy liquid,
but rather clearly defined molecular machinery as the videos show.
Many other such discoveries, besides the cellular discoveries, show how viruses and DNA work, and once agin we see that is more 'digital' than 'analog'.

As you already know, although biology may have started out as a 'soft' science, it has become a science of measurements, and is no longer like alchemy, astrology or Jungian analysis conjuring up vague forces and other intangibles.

It seems to me If we examine the ecology of groups of organisms, again the only reason we can make sense of it is because of discrete effects and factors.

That DNA at the heart of every cell uses a digital sort of code, seems amazing.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23846473 - 11/18/16 08:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Don't forget about the invention of genetically modified glow in the dark jellyfish sheep back in 2013.




I await the day geneticists invent a peanut butter and jelly fish. :yesnod:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23846588 - 11/18/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"peanut butter and jelly fish"

sounds fishy
would be squishy

but CRISPR is no joke (makes GMOs & clones look like chicken shit)
the world will be changed drastically

should we have the misfortune to live that long we will see it happen
no one imagined the change computers brought 30 years ago
it will not be regulated in China

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CRISPR


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23846630 - 11/18/16 08:51 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I want a tail and a third arm - and maybe a minor superpower.

:supersaiyan:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23847793 - 11/19/16 08:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I want a tail and a third arm - and maybe a minor superpower.

:supersaiyan:



I want that familiar super power without drugs


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23848991 - 11/19/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

it is clear to me your a physicalist. I am not.

the body at 'that level' seems to you like machinery, but it isn't machinery. it does not function like a machine at all:

Quote:

“Integrative Science”: The Death-Knell of Scientific Materialism?

‘“One of the most spectacular and substantial difference[s] between machines and living systems is that in the case of machines the source of the work is not related to any significant structural changes. The systemic forces of machines ... work only if the constituents of the machine are taken into motion by energy sources which are outer to these constituents. The inner states of the constituents of a machine remain practically constant.  The task of the constituents of a machine is to convert some kind of energy into work. In contrast, in the living systems the energy of the internal build-up, of the structure of the living matter is transformed into work. The energy of the food is not transformed into work, but to the maintenance and renewal of their internal structure and inner states. Therefore, the living systems are not power machines” (ibid., 64). The fundamental principle of biology acts against the changes which would set up in the system on the basis of the Le Chatelier-Braun principle (ibid., 59). The Bauer-principle recognizes the problem of the forces acting at the internal boundary surfaces as the central problem of biology....’




and as for your ideas about a brave new world of reductionism:
Quote:



Reductionism and complexity in molecular biology
The claim made by Francis Crick (1966) that “The ultimate aim of the modern movement in biology is to explain all biology in terms of physics and chemistry” epitomizes the reductionist mindset that has pervaded molecular biology for half a century. The theory is that because biological systems are composed solely of atoms and molecules, without the influence of 'alien' or 'spiritual' forces, it should be possible to explain them using the physicochemical properties of their individual components, down to the atomic level. The most extreme manifestation of the reductionist view is the belief that is held by some neuroscientists that consciousness and mental states can be reduced to chemical reactions that occur in the brain (Bickle, 2003; Van Regenmortel, 2004).

Reductionists analyse a larger system by breaking it down into pieces and determining the connections between the parts. They assume that the isolated molecules and their structure have sufficient explanatory power to provide an understanding of the whole system. As the value of methodo-logical reductionism has been particularly evident in molecular biology, it might seem odd that, in recent years, biologists have become increasingly critical of the idea that biological systems can be fully explained using physics and chemistry. Their situation is similar to that of an art student asking about the significance of Michelangelo's David and being told that it is just a piece of marble hewn into a statue in 1504. This is certainly true, but it evades pertinent questions about the anatomy of the statue, its creation at the beginning of the Florentine Renaissance, its significance in European art history, or even the scars on its left arm that were plastered after it was broken in three places during the anti-Medici revolt of 1527. In an analogous way, the biology, development, physiology, behaviour or fate of a human being cannot be adequately explained along reductionist lines that consider only chemical composition. Anti-reductionists therefore regard biology as an autonomous discipline that requires its own vocabulary and concepts that are not found in chemistry and physics. Both sides have discussed their standpoints at several recent international meetings (Bock & Goode, 1998; Van Regenmortel & Hull, 2002; Van Regenmortel, 2004) and the main disagreement between the protagonists is about what constitutes a good scientific explanation.




Quote:

Systems thinking
The fact that ecological sustainability is a property of a web of relationships means that in order to understand it properly, in order to become ecologically literate, we need to learn how to think in terms of relationships, in terms of interconnections, patterns, context. In science, this type of thinking is known as systemic thinking or "systems thinking." It is crucial for understanding ecology, because ecology – derived from the Greek word oikos ("household") – is the science of relationships among the various members of the Earth Household.

Systems thinking emerged from a series of interdisciplinary dialogues among biologists, psychologists, and ecologists, in the 1920s and '30s. In all these fields, scientists realized that a living system – organism, ecosystem, or social system – is an integrated whole whose properties cannot be reduced to those of smaller parts. The "systemic" properties are properties of the whole, which none of its parts have. So, systems thinking involves a shift of perspective from the parts to the whole. The early systems thinkers coined the phrase, "The whole is more than the sum of its parts."

What exactly does this mean? In what sense is the whole more than the sum of its parts? The answer is: relationships. All the essential properties of a living system depend on the relationships among the system's components. Systems thinking means thinking in terms of relationships. Understanding life requires a shift of focus from objects to relationships.




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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: zzripz]
    #23849123 - 11/19/16 04:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

:noyoudidawet:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: zzripz]
    #23849253 - 11/19/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Transistors aren't constant yo, they gave gates for the electrons. 


Just as human cells have a plasma membrane for the movement of ions.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #23849734 - 11/19/16 07:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

system thinking is interesting

The weather cannot be modeled for more than a few days out as the possible interactions become infinite. So is the weather alive or a machine? Inside stars like the sun thermonuclear reactions take place, but the activity on the surface of the sun is not entirely understood or predictable. So are stars machines? Or are they spirits or alive, or just part of a bigger machine called a galaxy and like wise for the galaxy it's part of a cluster. We can wonder about this and not much seems at stake - one could have a discussion about what does it mean to say something is mechanical.

When it comes to "life" we may have more emotional baggage...

When it comes to life if we go to a different level from the really strange goings on in cells. We do find at another level many rather predictable behaviors. An interesting one is population fluctuations between many prey and predatory species such as rabbits and foxes. So here on a large scale one sees no free will at all - the fact that it is predictable seems to imply a mechanical nature.

Consider: Programed cell death, or Apoptosis,  "For example, the separation of fingers and toes in a developing human embryo occurs because cells between the digits undergo apoptosis."
First the body makes unnecessary parts, (webs between the fingers in this case) because an old evolutionary programing hasn't been so to speak 'updated' and then destroys those parts, an inefficient use of resources. There are many such examples, which lend weight to a mechanical view. The most obvious being the simple program all life has to: grow, reproduce, and die. It doesn't get much simpler.

Most species are parasites. Even parasites have parasites. And many creatures eat each other alive. The reality is quite different from the Walt Disney shows I saw as a kid, or (in my view) the New age fluff spouted by guys like Deepak Chopra. But of course he gets very rich telling people what they want to hear, namely that they are special and spiritual and not mechanical.

Meanwhile advertisers, slot machine designers, and their ilk do just fine using a mechanistic understanding of human behavior. Millions and millions watch TV and join the armed forces of all the nations, so we have a vast continuous frenzy of men killing men. It wouldn't seem to matter much what we call it. Mechanical or relational interconnected system, physical or an immaterial dream, it's all still pretty stupid. But hey some Gap clothing and an iphone and i be cool & free.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23849750 - 11/19/16 07:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Transistors aren't constant yo, they gave gates for the electrons. 


Just as human cells have a plasma membrane for the movement of ions.





Are those borders and border regulations at work serving to make for a functional system and harmonious system?

:nicesmile:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23849768 - 11/19/16 07:58 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Not here to try and convert anyone but i have a few questions about the evolution of man. I personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but thats me. Now me questions lol





Quote:

TFI said:
1. if we are so evolved and our relatives are monkeys, why did man loose his fur and strength in hands and feet?




Fur serves many purposes. One is the regulation of body temperature throughout the seasons. Man developed clothing and other forms technologies to solve this problem.
There are other causes i'm sure if you google it. Man created google so you can look this kind of stuff up. Strength in hands and feet are relative to function. We developed tools and technologies.

Quote:

TFI said:
2. If we evolved from animals why can man not survive the seasons without building something for shelter or clothing or fire?




Technology is an evolutionary tool that is able to be forged by man's evolved brain. You're missing the point.

Quote:

TFI said:
3. Why is man the only species that cultivates food such as farming and ranching?



Technology. You're missing the point.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: phio]
    #23849774 - 11/19/16 07:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Mind Walk is a good movie all about systems thinking.  Highly recommend it.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: phio]
    #23849793 - 11/19/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Different countries have different border regulations.

Different circuits have different pros and cons.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23849819 - 11/19/16 08:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Mind Walk is a good movie all about systems thinking.  Highly recommend it.



*Cheers. Will look into that.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23849824 - 11/19/16 08:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Different countries have different border regulations.

Different circuits have different pros and cons.



Indeed.. regulatory enforcements of border in the biological body can even be 'deadly' and for good reasons (pros/cons). They seemingly exist for good and functional reasons most often

:asianofapproval:


Edited by phio (11/19/16 08:26 PM)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23849830 - 11/19/16 08:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
system thinking is interesting

The weather cannot be modeled for more than a few days out as the possible interactions become infinite. So is the weather alive or a machine? Inside stars like the sun thermonuclear reactions take place, but the activity on the surface of the sun is not entirely understood or predictable. So are stars machines? Or are they spirits or alive, or just part of a bigger machine called a galaxy and like wise for the galaxy it's part of a cluster. We can wonder about this and not much seems at stake - one could have a discussion about what does it mean to say something is mechanical.

When it comes to "life" we may have more emotional baggage...

When it comes to life if we go to a different level from the really strange goings on in cells. We do find at another level many rather predictable behaviors. An interesting one is population fluctuations between many prey and predatory species such as rabbits and foxes. So here on a large scale one sees no free will at all - the fact that it is predictable seems to imply a mechanical nature.

Consider: Programed cell death, or Apoptosis,  "For example, the separation of fingers and toes in a developing human embryo occurs because cells between the digits undergo apoptosis."
First the body makes unnecessary parts, (webs between the fingers in this case) because an old evolutionary programing hasn't been so to speak 'updated' and then destroys those parts, an inefficient use of resources. There are many such examples, which lend weight to a mechanical view. The most obvious being the simple program all life has to: grow, reproduce, and die. It doesn't get much simpler.

Most species are parasites. Even parasites have parasites. And many creatures eat each other alive. The reality is quite different from the Walt Disney shows I saw as a kid, or (in my view) the New age fluff spouted by guys like Deepak Chopra. But of course he gets very rich telling people what they want to hear, namely that they are special and spiritual and not mechanical.

Meanwhile advertisers, slot machine designers, and their ilk do just fine using a mechanistic understanding of human behavior. Millions and millions watch TV and join the armed forces of all the nations, so we have a vast continuous frenzy of men killing men. It wouldn't seem to matter much what we call it. Mechanical or relational interconnected system, physical or an immaterial dream, it's all still pretty stupid. But hey some Gap clothing and an iphone and i be cool & free.




Fwiw, while you are correct that many phenomena in our realm act mechanistically, our most fundamental scientific theory stipulates a cosmos that is in essence nondeterministic at root.  Deterministic causality is a good approximation, but it is not really true, ultimately.  This is known with precision.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: phio]
    #23849902 - 11/19/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phio said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Different countries have different border regulations.

Different circuits have different pros and cons.



Indeed.. regulatory enforcements of border in the biological body can even be 'deadly' and for good reasons (pros/cons). They seemingly exist for good and functional reasons most often

:asianofapproval:




That's survival of the fittest for you.


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Invisiblephio


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23850024 - 11/19/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

phio said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Different countries have different border regulations.

Different circuits have different pros and cons.



Indeed.. regulatory enforcements of border in the biological body can even be 'deadly' and for good reasons (pros/cons). They seemingly exist for good and functional reasons most often

:asianofapproval:




That's survival of the fittest for you.



fittest ...
:nicesmile:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: phio]
    #23850065 - 11/19/16 10:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You surprise me..
Quote:

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success.





Edited by sudly (11/19/16 10:40 PM)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23850402 - 11/20/16 03:19 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
You surprise me..
Quote:

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success.









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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23850421 - 11/20/16 03:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Mind Walk is a good movie all about systems thinking.  Highly recommend it.







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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: zzripz]
    #23850442 - 11/20/16 04:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There is individual body and mind.

Not some external awareness like sentience existing without matter in the form of a 'god'.

What even is the difference between Santa and a God other than the names and wording of the fairy tales that constructed them?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23850561 - 11/20/16 06:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
There is individual body and mind.

Not some external awareness like sentience existing without matter in the form of a 'god'.

What even is the difference between Santa and a God other than the names and wording of the fairy tales that constructed them?



OK I agree with this, but not with triune theory


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23850569 - 11/20/16 06:22 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Triune theory is an anatomical model of the body and mind experience that can be referenced to Freudian theory.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23850767 - 11/20/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

but that is not a wise use of your time.
I think you should go back to the sources of information and leave out Freud.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23850853 - 11/20/16 09:16 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
system thinking is interesting

The weather cannot be modeled f.....

Fwiw, while you are correct that many phenomena in our realm act mechanistically, our most fundamental scientific theory stipulates a cosmos that is in essence nondeterministic at root.  Deterministic causality is a good approximation, but it is not really true, ultimately.  This is known with precision.




Well what are the parameters between the 2?
Quite unlikely the sun will be purple or green tomorrow
we don't pray to the God of chaos to fix a broken car, we go to a mechanic.
and most of human psychology is very predictable,
in fact the evidence against free will is far stronger than the contrary,
unfortunately these facts offend human vanity,
and so folks grab at philosophical straws,
and imagine they have an immortal soul
and so on
As some scientists much smarter than myself have pointed out
Quantum theory seems to be the latest theory
to be misunderstood and co-opted by the likes of D. Chopra and Co.

Philosophically speaking it would seem that as Determinism and non-Determinism are
conceptual opposites, neither can accurately describe 'the' infinite. So called Enlightened teachers have taught that clinging to such concepts is an error, and it seems a valid point to me.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23850891 - 11/20/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

All I was trying to say was that causality is the conceptualized behavior we abstract from our observations of Nature in our corner of the multiverse.  At a fundamental level, what we think is happening -- what we take for granted -- is not the reality.  Our deterministic macroscopic world is really an epiphenomenon of the micro-realm, and gives rise to a bevy of illusions.  I never said anything mystical.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23850939 - 11/20/16 09:48 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/glg/glg02.htm

"Controlled or not controlled?
The same dice shows two faces.
Not controlled or controlled,
Both are a grievous error."

or as Steven Gaskin said
if you come to a 'T' in the road and the sign says:
'only left turns'
and you want to turn left
there is no problem

and what the sign on the road of life seems to say is:
"get born, grow, choose to get attached or not, reproduce or not, and die"
Lenard Cohen who just died and released a last album
sings about his letting go...
have heard excerpts, seems good...

so it's basically a simple program, ( birth - death - (mechanistic or not))
and to slightly misquote Peter O'Toole in the movie "Lawrence of Arabia":
the only  "trick is in not resisting"
(I think in the movie he says the trick is in 'not minding' when he sticks his finger in a flame.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23850949 - 11/20/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that there is no use in quibbling over the duality, I'm just trying to be accurate as far as the philosophy of science goes.

Cool post, btw.

And yeah Lawrence, when he puts his finger in the flame, says "The trick...is not minding that it hurts."


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23851766 - 11/20/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
but that is not a wise use of your time.
I think you should go back to the sources of information and leave out Freud.




I'm sorry if biology and psychology together offend you.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23851934 - 11/20/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Freud is not psychology, he is an intellectual dinosaur.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23851956 - 11/20/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Freud is psychoanalysis.

Quote:

Sigmund Freud emphasized the importance of the unconscious mind, and a primary assumption of Freudian theory is that the unconscious mind governs behavior to a greater degree than people suspect. Indeed, the goal of psychoanalysis is to make the unconscious conscious.






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Edited by sudly (11/20/16 04:17 PM)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852003 - 11/20/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's practically medieval, not determined by scientific method, but even so he pioneered in the new field of psychoanalysis, prior to the science of psychology.

His fundamental concepts retard the advance of the science and the ways his ideas are illustrated do not help explain mind or consciousness realistically, they merely provide a model for his vocabulary. All of it was conjecture.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23852035 - 11/20/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Freud died on September 23, 1939.
He was also awarded a Goethe Prize in 1930 for his achievements in literature among the scientific community of his time.

Quote:

Frankfurt-on-Main (Aug. 29)
In the presence of a distinguished gathering of prominent scholars and scientific figures, the 1930 Goethe Prize, supported by the Frankfurt municipality, was yesterday awarded to Dr. Sigmund Freud, world famous psychoanalyst of Vienna. The award was accepted on Dr. Freud’s behalf by his daughter, Anna Freud, Dr. Freud being unable to attend on account of illness.

Mayor Landman of Frankfurt, in his presentation address, declared that Dr. Freud’s creative genius fructified an entire generation and had spread the fame of German and European science to the furthest parts of the world.




What other explanation of the human experience makes sense?
Chakras and Buddhist interpretations of the human experience seem to rely heavily upon spiritual realisations and yoga practices, which are helpful for some people but I personally don't see any scientific basis within them.
Slow breathing with the diaphragm is helpful for staying calm though.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852092 - 11/20/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well at least you stopped saying that freud is psychology.

yes he fructified a generation of early psychological scientists and theorists, but he himself was more of a fantasist than a scientist. You should let him go.

Quote:

sudly said:
...What other explanation of the human experience makes sense?...




well you know he did not actually explain how anything works, he postulated the existence of some structures or properties that do not translate properly with the body, brain, or behavior; and he depicted them with metaphor and analogies, but he did not explain how any of those things, for which he invented words, is articulated to anything else that he made words for or not except:
mother
father
dream -- these he connects strongly.

So his descriptions are really no better than bible stories or fables from the brothers grimm.

His attempt to understand and treat mental illness, however, is very admirable. I love Freud, but hesitate to quote his work.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23852167 - 11/20/16 05:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Why wouldn't Freud's work be psychology?
Quote:

The scientific study of mental processes and behavior. The behavioral and cognitive characteristics of a specific individual, group, activity, or circumstance. ◇ Clinical psychology ◇ is the application of psychological knowledge to the diagnosis and treatment of patients.




I think aspects of Freud's ideas can be used for diagnosis of mental conditions due to over and under-stimulations of the three regions of the ID, the Ego and the Super-Ego in relation to Triune theory. (Basal Ganglia/Limbic/Neocortex)

Einstein might have been considered a fantasist for some of his ideas too but he also founded great success within them.

Alone Freudian theory can seem abstract but I use it within the context of Triune theory and Plato's Tripartite soul.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852201 - 11/20/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

to do science, you have to employ scientific methods which includes experimentation that is reproducible.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23852243 - 11/20/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Scientific method: a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.




'Do entheogens like psilocybin that have anxiolytic(anti-anxiety) properties act to temporarily inhibit part of the Autonomic Nervous System and in turn the fight or flight response?'

It's something that can be tested.

And look at that.. psilocybin effects the sympathetic nervous system(fight or flight response).
Quote:


Psilocybin produces bodily changes which are mostly sympathomimetic.
This means that psilocybin mimics the effects of stimulating postganglionic
adrenergic sympathetic nerves (online medical). The effects of
this sympathetic nervous system arousal may consist of pupillary
dilation, increases in blood pressure and heart rate,
exaggeration of deep tendon reflexes, tremor, nausea,
piloerection (hair erection), and increased body temperature
http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=33310






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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852398 - 11/20/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

speed and coke are strong sympathomimetic drugs,
shrooms and 'cids are vey mildly sympathomimetic.

Freud did not have an experimental method just theory and applications - it was very steampunk  idiosyncratic work. not science.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23852402 - 11/20/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Speed and coke weren't available to our ancestors.

That's why I think a modern Triune interpretation of Freudian theory can be used to develop new applications in psychology.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23853245 - 11/21/16 03:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

coke is very old and natural and has been in the west for 100's of years and in south america for thousands of years, ephedra (natural speed) has been available for 1000's of years. your premise is not solid.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23853254 - 11/21/16 03:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Organically they do have shamanic uses and as sympathomimetic drugs I don't doubt they act in similar ways to psilocybin.
Maybe the use of different entheogens resulted in the diversity of morals and cultures we see today.

I haven't had coke before(by choice) so I can't compare the experience.

As long as the sympathetic nervous system can be temporarily inhibited and/or stimulated by an entheogen available to our ancestors, my point stands.


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Edited by sudly (11/21/16 03:55 AM)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23853295 - 11/21/16 04:49 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

your point is absurd.
psychedelics are not primarily sympathomimetic.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23853309 - 11/21/16 05:07 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Entheogen use can act to numb the sympathetic nervous system and inhibit the fight or flight response is all I'm saying :shrug:

A drug doesn't have to act primarily on the sympathetic nervous system to have an effect, especially when considering psychedelics.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23853353 - 11/21/16 06:07 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

but in each case they do not numb the sympathetic nervous system they stimulate it.
can you imagine how wrong your triune thing is.
scrap it immediately and study science from scratch.
try not to remember things backwards.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: phio]
    #23853596 - 11/21/16 08:49 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phio said:
Quote:

TFI said:
Not here to try and convert anyone but i have a few questions about the evolution of man. I personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but thats me. Now me questions lol





Quote:

TFI said:
1. if we are so evolved and our relatives are monkeys, why did man loose his fur and strength in hands and feet?




Fur serves many purposes. One is the regulation of body temperature throughout the seasons. Man developed clothing and other forms technologies to solve this problem.
There are other causes i'm sure if you google it. Man created google so you can look this kind of stuff up. Strength in hands and feet are relative to function. We developed tools and technologies.

Quote:

TFI said:
2. If we evolved from animals why can man not survive the seasons without building something for shelter or clothing or fire?




Technology is an evolutionary tool that is able to be forged by man's evolved brain. You're missing the point.

Quote:

TFI said:
3. Why is man the only species that cultivates food such as farming and ranching?



Technology. You're missing the point.





Ok but if man came from nature and not god why would nature create something so destructive? Why would we shed our fur only to plow fields for clothing? Why would nature evolve something that destroys everything lol destruction of forrest for homes, digging for oil to burn in our cars we build.. Other animals have no need for this


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23853669 - 11/21/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Nature isn't conscious. Evolution is random.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #23853799 - 11/21/16 10:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

But out of all this time earth has been here nothing comes close to the destruction caused by man. Nothing. We just happen to be the exception of destruction?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23853822 - 11/21/16 10:19 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
...
Ok but if man came from nature and not god why would nature create something so destructive? Why would we shed our fur only to plow fields for clothing? Why would nature evolve something that ...





this explains the flaw in your comprehension.
you are equating nature and god as "higher beings" able to create, and or "evolve" creatures.

At least with nature you can say the fabric of nature creates and perpetuates itself, and evolution is part of that process, but nature is not an actor. You can watch parts of nature changing, mating, spawning, growing, dying etc - this is the activity of naturalists, many of whom are biologists. What they are observing in nature is how things are naturally, i.e. without interference.

You can say we went out into nature, but you do not mean that you entered an entity, but rather that you had a walk outside or in the forest, and not in the house, unless you have an indoor garden or built the house around a tree.

Evolution is not derived from evolving, it is instead observed after such events in which new species form by surviving mutations and breeding successfully.

at the most you can say one species evolved from another, or you could say that a species that has several mutations and is experiencing a genetic drift is "potentially evolving", but until a new species forms (which does not breed back into the main population), you would not say that evolution had occurred. The vast variety of breeds of dogs, for instance does not quite indicate that dogs are evolving, but if,for example,  noodle hounds begin to appear that can not cross bred with other dachshund dogs, and if the new noodle hound puppies are sexually fertile with other noodle hounds, then the noodle hound will be a newly evolved species with the obvious link to other dogs through the dachshunds (with which they no longer mate and produce sexually viable puppies - i.e. new separate species).

In any case nature is not behind this - nature is not an agency for evolution, but it does accommodate evolution, because nature accommodates mutations, and nature accommodates survival and nature accommodates death. Even all that accommodating does not mean to say that nature an agent, only that nature absorbs these events normally.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #23853831 - 11/21/16 10:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

When a horse and a donkey make a baby it is infertile. Evolution is stupid.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #23853845 - 11/21/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So nature will absorb the events of a nuclear holocaust caused by man and eventually absorb the events of life in the center of said holocaust? (Trying to think of most harmful man made disaster) basically meaning nature has no role right?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23853860 - 11/21/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

nature accommodates things without interference, but even it absorbs things that are very unnatural such as an atom bomb to a greater and lesser degree.

we should not fuck too much with nature, nor should we imagine that any god can save us from disasters of our own making.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23853874 - 11/21/16 10:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)



Evolution makes blobfish sad. :frown:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23853994 - 11/21/16 11:18 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23854875 - 11/21/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
but in each case they do not numb the sympathetic nervous system they stimulate it.
can you imagine how wrong your triune thing is.
scrap it immediately and study science from scratch.
try not to remember things backwards.




I understand that entheogens stimulate the nervous system but in doing so they over time numb that part of the nervous system. It's like when you work out and stimulate your muscles, eventually they feel numb and worn out.

Are you scared of the idea or something?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23855220 - 11/21/16 06:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

I think aspects of Freud's ideas can be used for diagnosis of mental conditions




Absolutely.  Psychoanalysis is an incredibly powerful methodology.

I used to blow off Freud as a nut, but the guy was a genius.

He identified aspects of the major causes of neurosis (depression, anxiety, rage, violence)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23855514 - 11/21/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

no wonder we have trump


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23855539 - 11/21/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

We have Trump because the American public is sick of corporate greed and the obvious oligarchy they find themselves in.

America was fit for regime change and instead of a progressive senator like Bernie Sanders a fraudulent scam artist made his way through with false promises because the DNC smothered Bernie with the media, hence why DNC chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz was fired and Donna Brazile had to step down from her position in CNN.


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Edited by sudly (11/21/16 08:27 PM)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23856417 - 11/22/16 07:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Trump became president because everyones sick of obama. Sick of weakening our nations defense, sick of letting millions of illegal aliens into the country, sick of sending our jobs to china and mexico, sick of the threat that the government wants to ban firearms, sick of uppity arrogant people like clinton and berney sanders, sick of the way obama spent trillions upon trillions of our dollars, sick of letting isis run rampant... I could go on an on lmao. All i herd from berniesanders is were gonna tax the rich and have free college.. (And the crowd goes wild) freeeeeeeeeee.. (Bernie bernie bernie)

If were going to have free college whos gonna pay for the colleges to run and pay and keep up with the latest books and education.. Guess that would be me and you and you and you and the rest of the american people, on top of keeping obamacare.. Yay more taxes.. No wonder the working class is getting fucked, jobs keep going oversees and taxes get higher... Thats just a few reasons trump is president. Not saying yes the be all to end all but its better than a communistic cunt or a socialist old fart


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23856651 - 11/22/16 09:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I guess we found a strong Trump supporter, any alt right feelings to go with your evolutionary wisdom?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23856729 - 11/22/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Its not that trump is the greatest its because hes not hillary or bernie. And i suppose were talking about the evolution of politics now haha


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23857850 - 11/22/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

  • Obama didn't cut military spending.
  • Obama has deported more people than previous Presidents
  • Corporations send jobs overseas and I guess Obama influences that by not removing citizens united.
  • No one is trying to ban firearms in America, they want to implement background checks so that you can't buy a gun easier than aspirin.
  • Clinton is an establishment insider, Bernie Sanders is a progressive representative of the people.
  • Obama was continuing Bush era wars, as horrible and wasteful as they have been.
  • And yes, tax the rich and give to the poor because the rich have insane tax loop holes where a CEO pays as many taxes as a teacher and they can store profits in tax havens such as the Panamas to not pay tax.


Who's going to pay for roads? Who's going to pay for schools? Hospitals? Government agencies? Maybe it's the governments role to allocate tax payer money to areas that help the entirety of a society instead of the 1%.

I feel your pain at the misfortune being brought upon America but you should steer that anger towards the establishment and not the progressives like Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein and Elizabeth Warren who are fighting to improve the lives of all Americans.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23857984 - 11/22/16 04:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

hey sudly
your political knowledge surpasses your scientific theory
good!


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23858096 - 11/22/16 05:16 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Cheers but I still don't see sense in your apparent fear of my Triune theory.

If it's true wouldn't it be nice to have an anatomical understanding of the human experience?

Or is it what it would mean to you if scientific reality really is that obscure?


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Edited by sudly (11/22/16 05:25 PM)


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23858252 - 11/22/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

it cant be true because it is not consistent with
a) vocabulary
b) physiology
c) chemistry
d) physics

in triune theory you are attempting to attribute and localize concepts of brain activity that are not consistently defined or are completely not necessary.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23858295 - 11/22/16 06:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

a) Name a word I used in it that doesn't make sense to you?
b) It's in sync with the human nervous system so you are incorrect.
c) The chemistry involved is that of anxiolytic interactions between entheogens and the human nervous system.
d) The physics of the human nervous system involve chemical and electrical interactions which are consistent with physics.

In Triune theory I am trying to remove colloquial interpretations of what makes a human unique because we are all evolved and we all share common ancestry.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23859674 - 11/23/16 06:52 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
  • Obama didn't cut military spending.
  • Obama has deported more people than previous Presidents
  • Corporations send jobs overseas and I guess Obama influences that by not removing citizens united.
  • No one is trying to ban firearms in America, they want to implement background checks so that you can't buy a gun easier than aspirin.
  • Clinton is an establishment insider, Bernie Sanders is a progressive representative of the people.
  • Obama was continuing Bush era wars, as horrible and wasteful as they have been.
  • And yes, tax the rich and give to the poor because the rich have insane tax loop holes where a CEO pays as many taxes as a teacher and they can store profits in tax havens such as the Panamas to not pay tax.


Who's going to pay for roads? Who's going to pay for schools? Hospitals? Government agencies? Maybe it's the governments role to allocate tax payer money to areas that help the entirety of a society instead of the 1%.

I feel your pain at the misfortune being brought upon America but you should steer that anger towards the establishment and not the progressives like Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein and Elizabeth Warren who are fighting to improve the lives of all Americans.




Your going to pay for those roads regardless besides my mother was mayor and the city pays for roads not the federal government, whats needed most is to cut government spending, she told me tha majority of debt comes from art, or a stadium for a highschool team. And trust me my anger goes to every establishment house their is. The american people need to stand up and shut down the blm and those who killed and stole the bundys land. That was a modern day indian removal.. Did you know it took good ol bernie 40 years before he went to work? Jill stein and elizabeth warren should be hanged alngside hillary cunton, look into the clinton foundation and how they stole haties earthquake money. Or how she released thousand upon thousand of emails to god knows who.. Clinton as a insider... Yeah the inside of everyones pocket book. What happened to basic business skills. If you dont have the money you cant buy it, with all these educated college graduates you would think someone knew how to balance a checkbook. 20 trillion in debt holy fuck me thats insane like reallybro really? And you wanna put the same minded people back in power.. Get outta here lmao


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 2
    #23859728 - 11/23/16 07:27 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Over half the discretionary spending of America goes to the military and that's with tax payer money which could be spread among all government organisations and agencies.

You sound as ignorant as they come.

Your intentions may be well placed but I can not be bothered to correct your cluster fuck of beliefs about how horrible progressives are because you've bought into biased media interpretations and false partisan labeling when the truth is that both the Republicans and Democrats are corrupt. 

Progressives are fighting for people.
Republicans and Democrats are fighting for corporations.


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23859993 - 11/23/16 09:14 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Over half the discretionary spending of America goes to the military and that's with tax payer money which could be spread among all government organisations and agencies.

You sound as ignorant as they come.

Your intentions may be well placed but I can not be bothered to correct your cluster fuck of beliefs about how horrible progressives are because you've bought into biased media interpretations and false partisan labeling when the truth is that both the Republicans and Democrats are corrupt. 

Progressives are fighting for people.
Republicans and Democrats are fighting for corporations.




Nicely said. :thumbup:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23860311 - 11/23/16 11:03 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Over half the discretionary spending of America goes to the military and that's with tax payer money which could be spread among all government organisations and agencies.





Who is going to pay for the military?

:archiebunker:


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #23860726 - 11/23/16 01:42 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crazy_Horse said:
....
Who is going to pay for the military?





well partly they (weapons / arms manufacturers) sell weapons to lots of other countries on the side
and the government representatives are in bed with the lobbyists
and whole communities are dependent on military jobs
so the government representatives are motivated to vote in ways to keep those jobs
etc
the corruption is many levels deep
so it's not just tax money that funds it
then there is the related war on drugs,
and the reshaping of police into a more militarized force,
and the DEA, FBI, CIA, NSA, School of the Americas, & God knows what else
and don't forget Olie North
But remember we are the worlds' greatest democracy ever !!


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23860812 - 11/23/16 02:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Is that supposed to answer my question?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #23860855 - 11/23/16 02:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

partly, yes, it was an attempt to answer your question

by suggesting some factors involved such as:

taxes as well as

arms sales

instigated and unreported wars and 'advisors'

hidden deals involving drugs for arms such as the Olie North deal

and

to suggest all these are connected

and so connected and hidden
that a complete answer is not possible.

Wiki leaks and Edward Snowden both revealed
how all sorts of hidden deals also influence these matters.

Do you think there is a straight forward simple answer anyone could give you?


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23861306 - 11/23/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i see what you mena
oh what a tangled (gary) webb
we weave
a bag on the runway
is worth two in the bush


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23861332 - 11/23/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

have you taken a basic course in getting over women who dumped you?  do you know what the words "good bye" even means?



BURN.


that wAS from Jesus btw. 


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23872876 - 11/27/16 05:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

just for fun

the question really should be reframed:
To: "What are the flaws in evolution?"

then we can answer
from whose point of view?
the lions or the zebras?
men or women's point of view?
the malaria parasite, mosquitoes, humans, or the gene for sickle cell anemia?
the wolves or the raindeers' point of view?

from the point of view of the wolves it's a lot of hard work to get a meal
and then you have to fight your brothers and wait for the alpha male and female to eat first, unless you are the alpha male ...
from the point of view of a slower deer it sucks big time.
from the point of view of evolution it keeps them all fit.
As humans save more and more unfit people health wise,
the results maybe less than optimal
As human culture gives advantage to a peculiar subset of humans
that are good at prospering economically
the results maybe less than optimal in terms of what human potential potentially was

As life is synonymous with evolution
the only conclusion is that life itself
does not have human values
it obviously just does what it does
it is we who project purpose

Just as the sun will turn into a red giant
and incinerate the inner planets
so the universe itself
does not have human values
it obviously just does what it does

adult humans seem to fixate on conscious purpose
whereas if babies didn't babble
they would never learn to speak;
the universe and life maybe just babbling


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23872894 - 11/27/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

Richard Dawkins




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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23873528 - 11/27/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
1.  Man lost his fur to keep his brain from overheating.  The need to keep a cool head is what made us the naked ape.  We do not know for sure why we lost our primate strength, but it is theorized that since the human brain has much higher energy requirements, our muscles had to lose out in our development.

2.  As the poster above said, humans evolved in a more or less equatorial/tropical environment.  The temperature was in an ideal range all year long.  Northern tribes in Europe, for example, developed a cultural evolution in habitat technology to remain alive in colder climes after migrating there for whatever reason.

3.  Man in his natural state does not cultivate food or engage in farming of any kind.  When agriculture appeared in the Fertile Crescent ~10,000 ya, it was a cultural change, not a biological one.  We do not know why agriculture formed in the way that it did, because it is a much more difficult way to make a living than foraging.  Some think it was population pressure, some think it was an ideological revolution -- we simply don't know.  But ultimately the answer to your question is that we engage in it, in part, because we are the only species with the brains and the opposable thumbs to do so.  How it began remains a mystery.




1.  That is a counter-intuitive explanation considering the place where the brain is located contains the most hair.

2.  People living in a tropical climate still require shelter from the elements and animals eating you in your sleep.

3.  :shrug:



One thing I don't understand about random-mutation driving evolution: At some point, the species will have to contain a different number of chromosomes than its parent. 

Based on what we see today, two species with different chromosomes tend to have sterile offspring or none at all.

We also can see that if a species drops below a certain population, it goes extinct.

In order for a species to change to a new species, the mutation would have to occur in a large number of the prior species in order to ensure survival of the new species.  This seems counter-intuitive towards randomness.

Also, the odds of a random mutation being beneficial rather than something benign or cancerous seems pretty low.  Based on the vast variety of species and the amount of time it takes for one species to transform to a similar species with slightly different beak sizes makes one wonder if there is enough time for evolution to occur randomly, unless it is a process that slows down.


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #23873549 - 11/27/16 09:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Two different species don't reproduce because they usually can't although there are some exceptions. 

Certain mutations can have an accumulative effect on other mutations e.g. one mutation could activate another dormant mutation.

Over many generations dormant mutations can accumulate until a new one comes along that can activate new genes to form a new species.

Normally a mutation is rather minute and consists of a small change such as thicker hair, longer nails, larger nostrils etc.

Evolution is a slow process that takes millions of years and thousands of generations.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #23873573 - 11/27/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe what's selected for does not complexify randomly, or complexifies in a process not directly related to selection.

Check out this Scientific American article:

Quote:

The Surprising Origins of Evolutionary Complexity:  Scientists are exploring how organisms can evolve elaborate structures without Darwinian selection

In Brief:


    Conventional wisdom holds that complex structures evolve from simpler ones, step-by-step, through a gradual evolutionary process, with Darwinian selection favoring intermediate forms along the way.
    But recently some scholars have proposed that complexity can arise by other means—as a side effect, for instance—even without natural selection to promote it.
    Studies suggest that random mutations that individually have no effect on an organism can fuel the emergence of complexity in a process known as constructive neutral evolution.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-surprising-origins-of-evolutionary-complexity/




--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Registered: 10/08/12
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23874700 - 11/28/16 09:56 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Not here to try and convert anyone but i have a few questions about the evolution of man. I personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but thats me. Now me questions lol





Accepting Jesus as a saviour and believing in evolution are both exclusive.

Evolution is a fact pertaining to the biological progression in linear time.

Jesus Christ didn't write the Old Testament - the tales of which which seemed to contradict 'evolution' were analogous, mostly riding on the basis that one divine God 'day' was actually 1000 years, highlited by Peter in the New Testament.

The assumption that man was placed on the Earth as a walking, talking entity is one of the chief misconceptions of the doctrine conveyed in Christianity and lies in the fact that the 'eternal' (where everything already is) and our sluggish, but seemingly educational 'linear time' model (where things are yet to be), can't co-exist compatibly or apparently.

The term 'day' is used simply as a Earthly means to describe and distinguish an instance of an otherwise 'cosmic' activity, before the phenomenon of 'day' had any substance to it - not to mention a mouth that could even speak of it, or a hand to write it.

It's for the same reason that no linear time method, nor language is backwards compatible to be able to describe and experience God, because it's not about days or instances. It's about now. The 'time' that always is, but is drowned in the tide of the moments. The eternal that dwells in all. :thumbup:


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (11/28/16 02:06 PM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: TFI]
    #23886366 - 12/02/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TFI said:

Everything and i mean everything man touches goes to shit...




That's quite a broad pronouncement. Do you blame this on the devil?

When a volcano erupts and destroys a lot of life, who do you blame? 

Christ, the only thing we need to be saved from is ourselves.


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