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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23850421 - 11/20/16 03:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Mind Walk is a good movie all about systems thinking.  Highly recommend it.







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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: zzripz]
    #23850442 - 11/20/16 04:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There is individual body and mind.

Not some external awareness like sentience existing without matter in the form of a 'god'.

What even is the difference between Santa and a God other than the names and wording of the fairy tales that constructed them?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23850561 - 11/20/16 06:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
There is individual body and mind.

Not some external awareness like sentience existing without matter in the form of a 'god'.

What even is the difference between Santa and a God other than the names and wording of the fairy tales that constructed them?



OK I agree with this, but not with triune theory


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23850569 - 11/20/16 06:22 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Triune theory is an anatomical model of the body and mind experience that can be referenced to Freudian theory.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23850767 - 11/20/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

but that is not a wise use of your time.
I think you should go back to the sources of information and leave out Freud.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23850853 - 11/20/16 09:16 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
system thinking is interesting

The weather cannot be modeled f.....

Fwiw, while you are correct that many phenomena in our realm act mechanistically, our most fundamental scientific theory stipulates a cosmos that is in essence nondeterministic at root.  Deterministic causality is a good approximation, but it is not really true, ultimately.  This is known with precision.




Well what are the parameters between the 2?
Quite unlikely the sun will be purple or green tomorrow
we don't pray to the God of chaos to fix a broken car, we go to a mechanic.
and most of human psychology is very predictable,
in fact the evidence against free will is far stronger than the contrary,
unfortunately these facts offend human vanity,
and so folks grab at philosophical straws,
and imagine they have an immortal soul
and so on
As some scientists much smarter than myself have pointed out
Quantum theory seems to be the latest theory
to be misunderstood and co-opted by the likes of D. Chopra and Co.

Philosophically speaking it would seem that as Determinism and non-Determinism are
conceptual opposites, neither can accurately describe 'the' infinite. So called Enlightened teachers have taught that clinging to such concepts is an error, and it seems a valid point to me.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23850891 - 11/20/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

All I was trying to say was that causality is the conceptualized behavior we abstract from our observations of Nature in our corner of the multiverse.  At a fundamental level, what we think is happening -- what we take for granted -- is not the reality.  Our deterministic macroscopic world is really an epiphenomenon of the micro-realm, and gives rise to a bevy of illusions.  I never said anything mystical.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23850939 - 11/20/16 09:48 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/glg/glg02.htm

"Controlled or not controlled?
The same dice shows two faces.
Not controlled or controlled,
Both are a grievous error."

or as Steven Gaskin said
if you come to a 'T' in the road and the sign says:
'only left turns'
and you want to turn left
there is no problem

and what the sign on the road of life seems to say is:
"get born, grow, choose to get attached or not, reproduce or not, and die"
Lenard Cohen who just died and released a last album
sings about his letting go...
have heard excerpts, seems good...

so it's basically a simple program, ( birth - death - (mechanistic or not))
and to slightly misquote Peter O'Toole in the movie "Lawrence of Arabia":
the only  "trick is in not resisting"
(I think in the movie he says the trick is in 'not minding' when he sticks his finger in a flame.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23850949 - 11/20/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that there is no use in quibbling over the duality, I'm just trying to be accurate as far as the philosophy of science goes.

Cool post, btw.

And yeah Lawrence, when he puts his finger in the flame, says "The trick...is not minding that it hurts."


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23851766 - 11/20/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
but that is not a wise use of your time.
I think you should go back to the sources of information and leave out Freud.




I'm sorry if biology and psychology together offend you.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23851934 - 11/20/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Freud is not psychology, he is an intellectual dinosaur.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23851956 - 11/20/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Freud is psychoanalysis.

Quote:

Sigmund Freud emphasized the importance of the unconscious mind, and a primary assumption of Freudian theory is that the unconscious mind governs behavior to a greater degree than people suspect. Indeed, the goal of psychoanalysis is to make the unconscious conscious.






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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (11/20/16 04:17 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852003 - 11/20/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's practically medieval, not determined by scientific method, but even so he pioneered in the new field of psychoanalysis, prior to the science of psychology.

His fundamental concepts retard the advance of the science and the ways his ideas are illustrated do not help explain mind or consciousness realistically, they merely provide a model for his vocabulary. All of it was conjecture.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23852035 - 11/20/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Freud died on September 23, 1939.
He was also awarded a Goethe Prize in 1930 for his achievements in literature among the scientific community of his time.

Quote:

Frankfurt-on-Main (Aug. 29)
In the presence of a distinguished gathering of prominent scholars and scientific figures, the 1930 Goethe Prize, supported by the Frankfurt municipality, was yesterday awarded to Dr. Sigmund Freud, world famous psychoanalyst of Vienna. The award was accepted on Dr. Freud’s behalf by his daughter, Anna Freud, Dr. Freud being unable to attend on account of illness.

Mayor Landman of Frankfurt, in his presentation address, declared that Dr. Freud’s creative genius fructified an entire generation and had spread the fame of German and European science to the furthest parts of the world.




What other explanation of the human experience makes sense?
Chakras and Buddhist interpretations of the human experience seem to rely heavily upon spiritual realisations and yoga practices, which are helpful for some people but I personally don't see any scientific basis within them.
Slow breathing with the diaphragm is helpful for staying calm though.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852092 - 11/20/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well at least you stopped saying that freud is psychology.

yes he fructified a generation of early psychological scientists and theorists, but he himself was more of a fantasist than a scientist. You should let him go.

Quote:

sudly said:
...What other explanation of the human experience makes sense?...




well you know he did not actually explain how anything works, he postulated the existence of some structures or properties that do not translate properly with the body, brain, or behavior; and he depicted them with metaphor and analogies, but he did not explain how any of those things, for which he invented words, is articulated to anything else that he made words for or not except:
mother
father
dream -- these he connects strongly.

So his descriptions are really no better than bible stories or fables from the brothers grimm.

His attempt to understand and treat mental illness, however, is very admirable. I love Freud, but hesitate to quote his work.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23852167 - 11/20/16 05:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Why wouldn't Freud's work be psychology?
Quote:

The scientific study of mental processes and behavior. The behavioral and cognitive characteristics of a specific individual, group, activity, or circumstance. â—‡ Clinical psychology â—‡ is the application of psychological knowledge to the diagnosis and treatment of patients.




I think aspects of Freud's ideas can be used for diagnosis of mental conditions due to over and under-stimulations of the three regions of the ID, the Ego and the Super-Ego in relation to Triune theory. (Basal Ganglia/Limbic/Neocortex)

Einstein might have been considered a fantasist for some of his ideas too but he also founded great success within them.

Alone Freudian theory can seem abstract but I use it within the context of Triune theory and Plato's Tripartite soul.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852201 - 11/20/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

to do science, you have to employ scientific methods which includes experimentation that is reproducible.


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23852243 - 11/20/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Scientific method: a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.




'Do entheogens like psilocybin that have anxiolytic(anti-anxiety) properties act to temporarily inhibit part of the Autonomic Nervous System and in turn the fight or flight response?'

It's something that can be tested.

And look at that.. psilocybin effects the sympathetic nervous system(fight or flight response).
Quote:


Psilocybin produces bodily changes which are mostly sympathomimetic.
This means that psilocybin mimics the effects of stimulating postganglionic
adrenergic sympathetic nerves (online medical). The effects of
this sympathetic nervous system arousal may consist of pupillary
dilation, increases in blood pressure and heart rate,
exaggeration of deep tendon reflexes, tremor, nausea,
piloerection (hair erection), and increased body temperature
http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=33310






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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23852398 - 11/20/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

speed and coke are strong sympathomimetic drugs,
shrooms and 'cids are vey mildly sympathomimetic.

Freud did not have an experimental method just theory and applications - it was very steampunk  idiosyncratic work. not science.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Flaws in the theory of evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23852402 - 11/20/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Speed and coke weren't available to our ancestors.

That's why I think a modern Triune interpretation of Freudian theory can be used to develop new applications in psychology.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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