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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly]
    #23837956 - 11/16/16 07:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Thank you for your ignorance.



let me be a mirror



Quote:

sudly said:
You can be a mirror if you want to but that doesn't say anything against a belief that sentience evolved.



so you are saying that people who do not share your belief (which is vague to say the least and which relies on idiosyncratic redefinition of critical concepts) are ignorant; and rather than stay on topic you are entitled to resort to personalisms; but if you fear a personalism you return to the topic with is the sanctity of your belief system.

this is not a forum of beliefs.
and personalism is not encouraged.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23837973 - 11/16/16 07:53 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ignorant just means not knowing.



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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23837982 - 11/16/16 07:56 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

A fear of personalisms?

I believe in the ending of American Beauty.

We live in a heaven on Earth in a hell that is the Universe.

The effort you put into life should be equal to looking for diamonds in a pool of shit.

Don't take life for granted because one day you will die.
Appreciate what you have and respect values.

It's okay to want more to appreciate.
But try not to take what you have for granted.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly]
    #23843101 - 11/17/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"I believe sentience evolved"

so...

of what value is this belief to you?

you want confirmation that a belief is rational?

funny, beliefs are generally not about rationality as you know.

hence Euclid's proofs rest on axioms and postulates.

given such and such, such and such follows

but the postulates are simply the rules of the game

one can play or not play the game

no belief necessary

----
but if you want to test whether a hypothesis is worth investigating, you need to provide an argument as to why the investigation is pertinent and your notion probable. You have not done so, and the terms are undefined. Is "sentience"  to be tested by a turing test for example? ....etc...


Edited by laughingdog (11/17/16 07:12 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: laughingdog]
    #23843281 - 11/17/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I don't want to believe in magic so I choose to believe in the results of the scientific method.

Something that gets me interested in this belief is that if it's true that sentience evolved then what we are experiencing now as human beings is an evolved consciousness otherwise known as having a conscience.

If it's true that sentience evolved then all I need to do is argue the biological reason for the adaptations and evolution of a sense of morality which I believe occurs as the result of the temporary anxiolytic effects of entheogens like psilocybin which can act to inhibit the fight or flight response.

I am still writing my thesis to make it easier to understand for others because you only really understand a concept once you can easily explain it to others and I am still developing the terminology to describe the mechanisms at place within the human nervous system that allow us to experience both sensations and perceptions.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly]
    #23843317 - 11/17/16 08:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If it's true that sentience evolved then all I need to do is argue the biological reason for the adaptations...





I think you're going to find that in the epiphenomenalist framework, there is no reason for consciousness to exist.  In other words, it's going to prove impossible for you to find evolutionary benefits for awareness if there had previously been none in the animal (or plant) kingdom.  It's a circle that institutional science is still very much stuck in.

Good luck.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23843407 - 11/17/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

sudly said:
If it's true that sentience evolved then all I need to do is argue the biological reason for the adaptations...





I think you're going to find that ..., there is no reason for consciousness to exist. ....
Good luck.




As I said, I seems to me, that  if consciousness isn't defined it's all moot. If we define it as some form of an 'entity' modeling itself, then we can find a reason for it. Chickens for example have a peking order and know what their place is in the group, this is true for many animals, and we could say it qualifies as a rudimentary form of self awareness and has some use. In particular it prevents much unneccessary conflict, which conserves energy.

I imagine as self driving cars are further developed, the car's computer will model itself in relation to other cars, and the environment. Again useful.

In many animals place in hierarchy determines sexual/reproductive access, so there are consequences in regards to evolution. It would seem to be up to Sudly to further define what he means by the term before we, or anyone, can evaluate it's usefulness, evolutionarily speaking.

I suspect a definition needs to involve memory, an accessible data base of past actions, ability to form predictions, and form goals, etc.
There are already many theories such as 'theory of mind' ...
and much human behavior is of course actually quite irrational and driven by unconscious motives, so it doesn't appear that precision & lack of obscurity  in this regard will be an easy task, which is why I suspect it continues to be avoided.

Redefining existing words and inventing new words would seem to often be a way of fooling oneself that some thing profound is being hinted at. Some philosophers spend lifetimes doing this.


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23843412 - 11/17/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

This is where a better interpretation of consciousness is necessary because the word 'consciousness' does not entail a good description of what makes a human unique.

Quote:

Consciousness: the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.




Consciousness is being aware of external surroundings according to a dictionary.

Because this is the case a Venus fly trap can be considered as having consciousness because it is able to differentiate between a water droplet and a fly by counting the amount stimulation it senses with trigger hairs.


If a plant like this experiences consciousness then it is not a unique trait to humans. What is unique to humans and human trained service animals is that they display an internal decision making process known as a sense of morality which is also known as having a conscience.

I believe it is the development of a conscience that makes higher cognition and sentience a reality.

The evolutionary benefit of having a sense of morality comes in connecting populations and societies in deciding what is good and bad for the overall health of a civilisation, e.g. making laws that remove murderers who are a threat to the survival of a population.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly]
    #23843430 - 11/17/16 08:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

by equating awareness with morality
it would seem you are saying immoral people such as
for example various dictators, serial killers, and generally psociopaths
are not aware.

This seems peculiar.


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: laughingdog]
    #23843462 - 11/17/16 09:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'm equating morality with being able to differentiate awareness of external surroundings and internal perceptions.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly]
    #23843503 - 11/17/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I'm equating morality with being able to differentiate awareness of external surroundings and internal perceptions.




that would seem to make some sense in that, that is what we fail to do in dreams, and it is assumed we are more aware when awake.

but the serial killer, or serial killer and rapist does not torture himself, he is distinguishing between self and other, internal sensations and the surroundings, as evidenced when  he avoids being caught. He is both aware and making some rational discriminations and immoral.

So this definition of morality does not seem adequate


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: laughingdog]
    #23843539 - 11/17/16 09:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

what some other researchers in the field have studied

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=theory+of+mind+psychology


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: laughingdog]
    #23843560 - 11/17/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Initially we may fail to be aware of a dream but in waking it's rather easy to remember the difference between dreams and real experiences, in my experience at least.

Quote:

Morality: principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.




Quote:

Conscience: a person's moral sense of right and wrong, viewed as acting as a guide to one's behaviour.




Morality and Conscience are one and the same.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly]
    #23843679 - 11/17/16 10:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

how come it does not feel meaningful or profound?


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Registered: 05/06/16
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23843696 - 11/17/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe it wasn't evolved but knocked off from the mushroom.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23843705 - 11/17/16 10:34 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It feels purposeful, in the form of DNA translation.

I think things are meaningful when you value them and I value DNA translation because it is the foundation of evolution and hence my life.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23844142 - 11/18/16 04:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

DNA translation is far away from consciousness and memory and
conscience is not integral to consciousness - definitely not synonymous!


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23845110 - 11/18/16 12:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

"Conscience is not integral to consciousness."
That's kinda my whole point.

DNA translation is the purpose of life because it's how DNA replicates.

Consciousness is being aware of external surroundings.
Conscience is being aware of internal perspectives.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23845207 - 11/18/16 12:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

wrong wrong wrong I give up - this kind of thinking is more steampunk than post industrial information age worthy.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I believe sentience evolved. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23845483 - 11/18/16 02:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
wrong wrong wrong I give up - this kind of thinking is more steampunk than post industrial information age worthy.




Devotion to fuzzy and sketchy theories is apparently not  entirely infrequent. There are those who think they have the secret to prime number patterns, the secret to free energy, a refutation of evolution, perpetual motion, and so on  ...

Some people make quilts or build ships in bottles in their spare time ... they seem less needy as regards need for approval and attention ... some such activities may have a social component:
some quilters get together on weekends, and chess players in parks as well. Other such activities are more solitary and maybe some sort of compensation ...


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