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OfflineMattMVS7
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Time distortion
    #23835630 - 11/15/16 02:18 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

When people have psychedelic trips or near death experiences, they sometimes claim that their experience seemed to last hours, days, months, years, or even forever. There is a difference between this being a literal amount of subjective time that has passed as opposed to it just seeming that way. For example, if I was very bored and I said that standing in line felt like hours when it was really only a few minutes, then there is a big difference between me just feeling like it lasted for hours as opposed it actually lasting for hours from my subjective point of view.

Standing there for hours and experiencing this passage of time would be very different than standing there for a few minutes and feeling that hours have passed. So I am wondering when it comes to trips and ndes, if the elongated periods of time that people who have these experiences describe are simply being attributed to the latter time description, or if it literally was like hours, months, days, years, or forever.

Edit:  What I just simply wish to ask is do I have any reason to worry about the time dilation period I would experience during a trip or nde regardless of how long the amount of time is? Would the amount of time become unbearable to me, drive me insane, etc. just like how it would here in my normal waking reality if it were many centuries or millenniums? Especially if all, most, or a significant fraction of that time is spent undergoing torment and misery during a horrible trip or nde. Or is the amount of time, regardless of how long, not a contributing factor at all in a person's boredom, misery, torment, insanity, etc. during a trip/nde?


Edited by MattMVS7 (11/17/16 02:24 AM)


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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23835742 - 11/15/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Time literally seems to slow to a crawl. The time dilation you experience on psychedelics is totally different to the colloquial sense. Moments can literally feel like hours, and when you check your phone to see that only five minutes has passed, your jaw drops in shock, because the experience runs so counterintuitive to everything else you've experienced before. That's the only way I can describe it, really.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23835780 - 11/15/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You see that seems like the "time distortion" I get with weed but I don't really call it time distortion I just see it as a change in my attitude about time.

For example 20 minutes can go by while I'm really high and I'll look back on it and be like "wow, that was a long 20 minutes" but it's not like I would have trouble believing just 20 minutes passed, I'm not gonna be like "OMG but it's felt like hours!" no I don't get that which is why I don't call it time distortion. I think a lot of people especially noobs experience this on pot and think it's time distortion but it's really not.

Psychedelics on the other hand especially the tryptamines like mushrooms can literally make 20 minutes feel like hours, hell sometimes on mushroom trips I'll enter realms or places of being where time doesn't even exist let alone move slowly.
I remember on my last mushroom trip I was looking back on the evening and thought to myself "Wow it's been sooo long...It's felt like it's been a week or 2 weeks."
Now realistically it probably felt like just a couple days but at the same time sort of felt like weeks or just an unexplainable amount.


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OfflineMattMVS7
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Re: Time distortion [Re: Matai]
    #23835781 - 11/15/16 03:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

But if a person who had a trip or nde claimed that the experience lasted days, months, or years to him/her, then would that be an unrealistic amount of time? Would the person just simply be tricked into feeling that it lasted that long? Or would it literally last that long to him/her?

A few hours I could definitely agree would be a realistic amount of time for a person to claim to have experienced during a trip or nde.  But I am not so sure about days, months, or years.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7] * 1
    #23835842 - 11/15/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

See I think you might be mixing up perspective with perception.

Psychedelics change our perception of linear time not just our attitudes or the way we "feel" about time which would be our perspective. When it comes to something like having a good time and feeling like time is moving faster that's perspective not perception, your general views on time moving forward is different but it's not like your mind is actually perceiving the information differently.

Perception is much less controllable. Perception is what our brains give us automatically and it will cut it out however it wants. Time seems slower or faster on psychedelics not just because of our perspectives or views on time but also the way our minds are perceiving time in that moment. It's changing what our brains are doing with that information, perspectives or attitudes about time is just changing what our ego's current interpretation of time is a.k.a. our own view on it.


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OfflineMattMVS7
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Re: Time distortion [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23835882 - 11/15/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
See I think you might be mixing up perspective with perception.

Psychedelics change our perception of linear time not just our attitudes or the way we "feel" about time which would be our perspective. When it comes to something like having a good time and feeling like time is moving faster that's perspective not perception, your general views on time moving forward is different but it's not like your mind is actually perceiving the information differently.

Perception is much less controllable. Perception is what our brains give us automatically and it will cut it out however it wants. Time seems slower or faster on psychedelics not just because of our perspectives or views on time but also the way our minds are perceiving time in that moment. It's changing what our brains are doing with that information, perspectives or attitudes about time is just changing what our ego's current interpretation of time is a.k.a. our own view on it.




So would days, months, or years be an unrealistic perception then for someone who has had a trip or nde?  I heard some people claim this amount of time for their experience, but am very skeptical about that.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23835889 - 11/15/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

No it doesn't seem unrealistic at all. Most people probably will say days or hours but I wouldn't doubt years. There's some people who have 10 minute long DMT trips where they feel like they were gone for years and in some cases even multiple lifetimes.
Sometimes just 3 minute DMT trips can feel like months according to some users.


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OfflineMattMVS7
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Re: Time distortion [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23835926 - 11/15/16 03:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
No it doesn't seem unrealistic at all. Most people probably will say days or hours but I wouldn't doubt years. There's some people who have 10 minute long DMT trips where they feel like they were gone for years and in some cases even multiple lifetimes.
Sometimes just 3 minute DMT trips can feel like months according to some users.




Let's determine the validity of this claim through science.  The more conscious moments (frames) you experience per second, the longer time would seem to be.  Could you please link me an article or at least explain to me how it is even possible to experience that vast amount of time during a trip or nde?  I just personally find it unrealistic for someone to experience THAT many frames per second.


Edited by MattMVS7 (11/15/16 03:56 PM)


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23835973 - 11/15/16 04:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Do you know how perception works? There's no links to give for such a thing because there aren't set limitations like that on perception.

There's nothing in science that tells us someone can't subjectively perceive 2 seconds as feeling like 2 days, 2 months, 2 years or even forever.
Our realities and perceptions are subjective.

Even 2 normal minutes in objective reality a.k.a. the real world can feel different to you than it does to me so there is no base for such a claim anyways. Our individual perceptions vary even from each other so no one can tell you what 2 years or 2 minutes feels like.


Edited by AuroraBorealis88 (11/15/16 04:03 PM)


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OfflineTrypto-Fan
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23835985 - 11/15/16 04:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MattMVS7 said:
Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
No it doesn't seem unrealistic at all. Most people probably will say days or hours but I wouldn't doubt years. There's some people who have 10 minute long DMT trips where they feel like they were gone for years and in some cases even multiple lifetimes.
Sometimes just 3 minute DMT trips can feel like months according to some users.




Let's determine the validity of this claim through science.  The more conscious moments (frames) you experience per second, the longer time would seem to be.  Could you please link me an article or at least explain to me how it is even possible to experience that vast amount of time during a trip or nde?  I just personally find it unrealistic for someone to experience THAT many frames per second.





How long is a 'conscious moment'?
Real life isn't like a video camera, you can't your perception of time in 'frames per second'

I've definitely experienced extreme time dilation on psychedelics.
Not to the point where I thought it had been days, but feeling like an hour was nearly a whole night, then realising how much longer I still had left of the trip type thing....
Pretty common.

I've heard reports of people experiencing whole other lifetimes on Salvia.


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OfflineMattMVS7
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Re: Time distortion [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23836003 - 11/15/16 04:08 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
Do you know how perception works? There's no links to give for such a thing because there aren't set limitations like that on perception.

There's nothing in science that tells us someone can't subjectively perceive 2 seconds as feeling like 2 days, 2 months, 2 years or even forever.
Our realities and perceptions are subjective.

Even 2 normal minutes in objective reality a.k.a. the real world can feel different to you than it does to me so there is no base for such a claim anyways. Our individual perceptions vary even from each other so no one can tell you what 2 years or 2 minutes feels like.




No, I don't know how perception works, but just simply found it unrealistic how the brain could possibly manage to create this vast amount of time during a trip or nde in only a few minutes or seconds.  The brain is an amazing organ, but has its limits and I just simply thought that such a task was far beyond the brain's limitations.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23836015 - 11/15/16 04:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MattMVS7 said:
The brain is an amazing organ, but has its limits




Yes it has its "limits" but time dilation (no matter how extreme) is not one of them.


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OfflineMattMVS7
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Re: Time distortion [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23836031 - 11/15/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
Quote:

MattMVS7 said:
The brain is an amazing organ, but has its limits




Yes it has its "limits" but time dilation (no matter how extreme) is not one of them.




Alright, so let's pretend that if I were to have a very horrible trip or nde in which I have the most horrible experience and said experience lasts years or for many lifetimes, then would I of gotten used to it by then?  The brain adapts to many horrible situations and experiences so that you are able to cope, live with them, and deal with these experiences over time.  So I am wondering if this would also apply to a horrible trip or nde that would last for vast amounts of time.


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23836123 - 11/15/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MattMVS7 said:
Alright, so let's pretend that if I were to have a very horrible trip or nde in which I have the most horrible experience and said experience lasts years or for many lifetimes, then would I of gotten used to it by then?  The brain adapts to many horrible situations and experiences so that you are able to cope, live with them, and deal with these experiences over time.  So I am wondering if this would also apply to a horrible trip or nde that would last for vast amounts of time.




Well that's a very good question but it's also kinda...you know...
I mean is there even a real answer to this? I mean there's probably more than one so...

I'd say it really depends and is both very hypothetical and very specific.

I have no personal experience with having a hellish trip while also undergoing extreme temporal inflation but...I still don't think you would get used to it. First off it would be highly unlikely that it would just be the same feeling that whole time, even bad trips are usually still constantly changing and dynamic. These aren't usually static states of mind they tend to always be changing even if it's just a little bit.

Again I think you may be mixing up perspective with perception because getting used to something has to do with perspective and perspective doesn't just undergo some giant change along with perception because they are separate so theoretically no, you wouldn't get used to it because though your perception of time may be radically altered your attitude and perspectives on things whether they be negative or positive likely isn't undergoing the same change. I mean how could it? Your mind (meaning your thoughts and your ego not your entire consciousness) can't fully keep up with your perceptions all the time. Subjectively perceived data about reality can very much so outrun your own personal feelings about such things.

An example of this would be like if you have a time distorting trip where it feels relatively normal paced while it's happening but looking back on it later and it seems like it lasted days. It's unexplainable honestly, it's like years or months go by but at the same time it doesn't feel like years or months because if it did you would obviously get bored as shit it's just like you entered a temporary realm where there was no such thing as temporary. I know it sounds like a contradiction and that's because it is and reality is a paradoxical.

My last LSD trip was so horrible, it was hellish but I didn't get any time distortion on that trip. I wonder what that would have been like. Yea I can't personally speak on behalf of experiences that felt both bad and eternal. Like I said a lot of the time it doesn't even feel distorted or "eternal" until after it's over. A real TRIP so to speak.


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OfflineMattMVS7
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Re: Time distortion [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23836413 - 11/15/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I am very worried about a horrible nde. I don't plan on taking any drugs, but just worry about having a hellish or horrible nde. If there is extreme time dilation during the nde and it seems to be like a series of horrible experiences that last for years, many lifetimes, or even forever, then something like this is simply inconceivable to be fine with, cope with, and be alright with regardless of what therapeutic methods I implement.

It would be like an eternal hell. Unless others here have had this same experience during their trips and yet they somehow managed to live through it all just fine. Otherwise, I don't see how it is even possible for anyone here to be fine taking psychedelics since these drugs always pose the risk of having such a horrible trip that would seem to last years, centuries, or even forever. In my opinion, you would have to be completely out of your mind to be fine taking such a risk.


Edited by MattMVS7 (11/15/16 06:29 PM)


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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23836484 - 11/15/16 06:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MattMVS7 said:
I am very worried about a horrible nde.  I don't plan on taking any drugs, but just worry about having a hellish or horrible nde. If there is extreme time dilation during the nde and it seems to be like a series of horrible experiences that last for years, many lifetimes, or even forever, then something like this is simply inconceivable to be fine with, cope with, and be alright with.

It would be like an eternal hell. Unless others here have had this same experience during their trips and yet they somehow managed to live through it all just fine. Otherwise, I don't see how it is even possible for anyone here to be fine taking psychedelics since these drugs always pose the risk of having such a horrible trip that would seem to last years, centuries, or even forever. In my opinion, you would have to be completely out of your mind to be fine taking such a risk.




Ooooooh so you've never taken psychedelics? Now this all makes sense. Yeah there's no way you're gonna be able to understand anything I'm saying or have said if you've never even had a powerful psychedelic drug.

You said you're very worried about a horrible NDE but what would that even be? I can't really imagine that? I mean I've heard some bogus sounding "near death experiences" where people supposedly went to hell but I don't even believe in that stuff and I've never heard of anyone having a really "bad" NDE experience let alone one that distorts time?

Look. When you're doing psychedelics it's not like time just feels stretched out or condensed TIME no longer makes sense and no longer works the same way. It's impossible to explain and wrap your head around even if you've gone through it first hand. "Time" is completely different in these states so I guess to simply say it's "distorted" would a major understatement because really nothing about time is the same to how it usually is in that moment.
For example 12 hours of tripping on LSD without any time distortion might feel ten times more strenuous and exhausting than a 3 hour trip on mushrooms that feels like a few weeks. You just can't explain it, it's like an eternity goes by but you have no problem with it.
Like I can experience multiple eternities on mushrooms in one single night and be completely content about it both while it's happening and after it's happened but god forbid if an LSD trip (with no time distortion) lasts 1 or 2 hours too long I feel completely drained and out of it and am essentially begging for it to end because my sanity feels tired. It's something you really can't explain, you experience major dilations of time but it is not accompanied by the same attitudes and feelings you would have if you had actually gone through those lengths of time (eternities, years, etc.)

You said it sounds very very risky and seem puzzled as to why someone would put themselves in that situation but really I don't see it as a real risk. I've never heard of someone feeling like they had a hellish or bad trip that felt like an eternity. Sure I've heard of bad trips that were pretty long in length but never heard of something like what you're describing.
I know soooo many people in real life who trip and who have tripped and no one I have ever talked to has experienced such a thing so I don't see it as being very likely if even possible however almost anything is possible. I don't see it as a real risk and can't even picture how I would get myself into that.
With psychedelics it's not like just a roll of the dice, you don't just have a bad trip for no reason there's always a reason. All of my "bad trips" were for the better and to be honest I don't really even believe in "bad trips" because even though they may feel bad at the time it's not like they're actually bad for you. They're good for you and I always learned the most from my "bad trips", those are the true introspective and healing ones and most bad trips aren't at all "hellish" they're just very psychologically difficult, they're not scary or anything typically.

I don't know man when you have these periods of time where time has stopped or ceased to exist or you're just "existing" in eternity good and bad don't really exist anymore at that point. When you're having moments of eternity you're not really having a good or bad trip you're actually just peaking your ass off and it's unlikely you even know what's going on around you or in your mind. You're basically in a trancelike state or in a hypnosis so yea...it isn't all so organized it's not like;
"Oh you're having a trip in Hell right now? Well how about I give you some TIME DISTORTION so you feel like you're in Hell for YEARS!!! MUHAHAHAHA!"

No it's not like that^


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Offlinenumnum59
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Re: Time distortion [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #23836594 - 11/15/16 07:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think relatively you could feel like your in hell for eternity. My wife is prone to bad trips and she said her last one was forever long. Also i have felt so trippy i never thought i was coming down.


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23836639 - 11/15/16 07:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

When I first took psychs I couldn't imagine how someone could have a bad trip.

Just acquire an eighth of shrooms and once you eat them you will understand where Aurora is coming from.

There is no reason to be so afraid of a near death experience. On reasonable doses and in chill scenarios having a bad time is very unlikely.

The reason we take them is because on the aggregate we enjoy ourselves, the only thing that is going to make you have a bad experience is YOU. The substance inhances emotions, so if you are chill and happy you are going to be more so, on the other hand if you are in a weird social scenario or have to worry about someone finding you tripping etc. then your chances of having a bad time are higher.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
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OfflineMattMVS7
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Re: Time distortion [Re: numnum59]
    #23836719 - 11/15/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AuroraBorealis88 said:
Quote:

MattMVS7 said:
I am very worried about a horrible nde.  I don't plan on taking any drugs, but just worry about having a hellish or horrible nde. If there is extreme time dilation during the nde and it seems to be like a series of horrible experiences that last for years, many lifetimes, or even forever, then something like this is simply inconceivable to be fine with, cope with, and be alright with.

It would be like an eternal hell. Unless others here have had this same experience during their trips and yet they somehow managed to live through it all just fine. Otherwise, I don't see how it is even possible for anyone here to be fine taking psychedelics since these drugs always pose the risk of having such a horrible trip that would seem to last years, centuries, or even forever. In my opinion, you would have to be completely out of your mind to be fine taking such a risk.




Ooooooh so you've never taken psychedelics? Now this all makes sense. Yeah there's no way you're gonna be able to understand anything I'm saying or have said if you've never even had a powerful psychedelic drug.

You said you're very worried about a horrible NDE but what would that even be? I can't really imagine that? I mean I've heard some bogus sounding "near death experiences" where people supposedly went to hell but I don't even believe in that stuff and I've never heard of anyone having a really "bad" NDE experience let alone one that distorts time?

Look. When you're doing psychedelics it's not like time just feels stretched out or condensed TIME no longer makes sense and no longer works the same way. It's impossible to explain and wrap your head around even if you've gone through it first hand. "Time" is completely different in these states so I guess to simply say it's "distorted" would a major understatement because really nothing about time is the same to how it usually is in that moment.
For example 12 hours of tripping on LSD without any time distortion might feel ten times more strenuous and exhausting than a 3 hour trip on mushrooms that feels like a few weeks. You just can't explain it, it's like an eternity goes by but you have no problem with it.
Like I can experience multiple eternities on mushrooms in one single night and be completely content about it both while it's happening and after it's happened but god forbid if an LSD trip (with no time distortion) lasts 1 or 2 hours too long I feel completely drained and out of it and am essentially begging for it to end because my sanity feels tired. It's something you really can't explain, you experience major dilations of time but it is not accompanied by the same attitudes and feelings you would have if you had actually gone through those lengths of time (eternities, years, etc.)

You said it sounds very very risky and seem puzzled as to why someone would put themselves in that situation but really I don't see it as a real risk. I've never heard of someone feeling like they had a hellish or bad trip that felt like an eternity. Sure I've heard of bad trips that were pretty long in length but never heard of something like what you're describing.
I know soooo many people in real life who trip and who have tripped and no one I have ever talked to has experienced such a thing so I don't see it as being very likely if even possible however almost anything is possible. I don't see it as a real risk and can't even picture how I would get myself into that.
With psychedelics it's not like just a roll of the dice, you don't just have a bad trip for no reason there's always a reason. All of my "bad trips" were for the better and to be honest I don't really even believe in "bad trips" because even though they may feel bad at the time it's not like they're actually bad for you. They're good for you and I always learned the most from my "bad trips", those are the true introspective and healing ones and most bad trips aren't at all "hellish" they're just very psychologically difficult, they're not scary or anything typically.

I don't know man when you have these periods of time where time has stopped or ceased to exist or you're just "existing" in eternity good and bad don't really exist anymore at that point. When you're having moments of eternity you're not really having a good or bad trip you're actually just peaking your ass off and it's unlikely you even know what's going on around you or in your mind. You're basically in a trancelike state or in a hypnosis so yea...it isn't all so organized it's not like;
"Oh you're having a trip in Hell right now? Well how about I give you some TIME DISTORTION so you feel like you're in Hell for YEARS!!! MUHAHAHAHA!"

No it's not like that^




I think I understand now.  I see it is not literally like years, months, or many lifetimes have passed as I've described.  It is instead how you've described it.  So that makes me much less worried now.  But let's pretend that it really was like how I've described it, then wouldn't you agree that only an insane person would take the risk of undergoing a horrible trip that would literally last that long?  Wouldn't you agree that hardly, if anyone, would even bother taking a psychedelic knowing this horrible risk?

My 2nd question here is, you say that the horrible experiences during a trip or a horrendous nde are simply psychologically difficult experiences that are not that horrible, but I have had horrible experiences in nightmare induced by depression and traumatic experiences in my life.

The experiences in these nightmares were far beyond horrible.  They were nothing normal at all.  So my 2nd worry is that such horrible experiences can be experienced during a horrible nde.  To have these experiences fully conscious and aware of them would be far worse than my nightmares.  Especially if such experiences are more intense than my nightmares.

Horrible and hellish ndes do happen to some people regardless of what mindstate they are in.  People who have these experiences do experience the time alterations that people who take psychedelics do.

Quote:

numnum59 said:
I think relatively you could feel like your in hell for eternity. My wife is prone to bad trips and she said her last one was forever long. Also i have felt so trippy i never thought i was coming down.




The previous poster above I quoted said that this vast time duration is not literal.  So I wish to know the actual answer here.  I wish to know who is telling the truth.  Or does your post actually agree with the previous poster above and that I am just mistaken?  Some previous posters here have said that the time dilation is, in fact, literal.

What does science say?  Does it say that my interpretation (the literal interpretation) is wrong and does not apply to anybody who takes a drug or has an nde?  Or does it actually apply to some people?  Has anyone experienced a trip or nde according to my literal view of time dilation?  Or was it instead how the previous poster above I quoted described it?


Edited by MattMVS7 (11/15/16 08:19 PM)


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Offlinefractaloctopus
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Re: Time distortion [Re: MattMVS7]
    #23836730 - 11/15/16 07:58 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MattMVS7 said:The brain is an amazing organ, but has its limits and I just simply thought that such a task was far beyond the brain's limitations.




So you are insinuating that you actually know the limits of the brain? That's pretty huge. I bet there are probably millions of people worldwide (neurologists, psychonauts, mystics, shamans, Buddhists, etc, etc, etc) that REALLY want to talk to you. :tongue:

We don't know the limits of the brain especially when it comes to perception and how it all works, let alone knowledge, memory, etc.

As for time dilation, I see no reason why any amount of time can't perceptually pass during a trip (or dream). I've had trips and very short dream sequences where massive amounts of time passed compared to the actual passage of time in reality. I've even had full time dilation on a combination of LSD and MDMA where during the trip I 100% felt like I was remembering that night from two weeks into the future. I could even "remember" the two weeks from the night of the party up until the night I was sitting in my living room (I could even feel the fabric of the couch under my hands as I sat on it) thinking about the party.

The brain and mind are an amazing combination that we basically know next to nothing about. To prove my point just minimally, are you awake or dreaming? How can you say for absolute certainty? You can't. I definitely can't because I have had dreams within dreams within dreams where I would "wake up" from one only to find myself in another dream, then I "wake up" from that one and into another, only to wake up into my current reality. Am I dreaming now? I don't think so, but it's entirely possible.


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