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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite


Registered: 10/28/11
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman]
#23831580 - 11/14/16 09:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: No it wouldn't. If there's biological evidence to back up the claim, it's not racism. Or maybe you think scientific study that proves differences is racist.
where is the evidence that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit crime?
--------------------
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qman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Tipote] 1
#23831598 - 11/14/16 09:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tipote said:
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qman said: It's been widely accepted that there's genetic differences between the races beside skin color, I guess they're all racist, right Tip? 
have you forgotten how to read? I said there is talking about difference and then there is talking about hierarchy.
When people say BLACK people. what do they mean? There is incredible variation between all groups you'd class as black.
So now it's about semantics, I wouldn't except anything less Tip.
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qman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Tipote] 1
#23831600 - 11/14/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tipote said:
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qman said: No it wouldn't. If there's biological evidence to back up the claim, it's not racism. Or maybe you think scientific study that proves differences is racist.
where is the evidence that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit crime?
Please tell me you're playing dumb, or maybe you just don't get it.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Tipote]
#23831746 - 11/14/16 10:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Tipote said: Day 1 in Trump’s America
Do any Trump supporters want to pretend there isnt a racist element and that racists haven't been empowered in this election?
qman? is it actually called patriotism, not racism? 
Racists were empowered during the last two elections as well, funny you didn't mind it then 
***typical leftist Hippocrate
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse]
#23831778 - 11/14/16 10:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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this thread still alive? after the selections are over?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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qman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Tipote]
#23831801 - 11/14/16 10:19 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tipote said: Day 1 in Trump’s America
Do any Trump supporters want to pretend there isnt a racist element and that racists haven't been empowered in this election?
qman? is it actually called patriotism, not racism? 
I have always warned of a major backlash, you seem to promote pushing people to their limits and then scream "racism" when it comes back to bite those people in the ass.
Don't confuse people not responding immediately with "social progress", there are major ramifications for Political Correctness, BLM's riots and Obama stirring the pot, payback can be a bitch.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#23831844 - 11/14/16 10:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Aren't you the guy who said Fascism and Socialism are the same, and that they are both left wing ideologies?
No, I am certainly not the guy who said that. I do believe progressives, or modern liberals, have deeply rooted socialist ideals, as is evident.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Tipote] 2
#23831934 - 11/14/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tipote said: while many Trump supporters thought they voted against the establishment, they just voted for a different sector of the establishment.
private prisons the arms industry oil and gas all on the rise
renewable stocks are falling..
white nationalists appointed..
my hope is that at least Trump fulfills his promises about investing in infrastructure and jobs. If he tries anything illegal then even impreachment could be tricky depending on majorities in the houses, no? At least America is naked in the world and the opposition will have to grow strong.
Whatever happens, the 20th January will be a significant day. The security at his inauguration is gonna have to be crazy strong.
Did you see Trumps cabinet choices? Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Giuliani... anti-establishment indeed.
I wanna see him make Palin speaker of the house. I wanna see a little more crazy up in here. I want to laugh my nuts off the whole way down!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/14/16 11:10 AM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
#23831937 - 11/14/16 11:10 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Aren't you the guy who said Fascism and Socialism are the same, and that they are both left wing ideologies?
No, I am certainly not the guy who said that. I do believe progressives, or modern liberals, have deeply rooted socialist ideals, as is evident.
I sure hope so.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman] 3
#23831944 - 11/14/16 11:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Tipote said: Day 1 in Trump’s America
Do any Trump supporters want to pretend there isnt a racist element and that racists haven't been empowered in this election?
qman? is it actually called patriotism, not racism? 
I have always warned of a major backlash, you seem to promote pushing people to their limits and then scream "racism" when it comes back to bite those people in the ass.
Don't confuse people not responding immediately with "social progress", there are major ramifications for Political Correctness, BLM's riots and Obama stirring the pot, payback can be a bitch. 
Qman, you are a racist. Your whole little rant about biological differences, etc, sounds like a Eugenics speech. You are just defending your racism. Bravo. Have you not argued on behalf of police treating blacks differently because they are black? Have you not argued that their increased violence has nothing to do with socioeconomic status? You have.
By the way, we are all well aware that there are biological differences between black people and white people. After all, their skin is black, and ours is white.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/14/16 11:15 AM)
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Tipote] 1
#23831981 - 11/14/16 11:29 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Tipote said:
Quote:
If black people are more prone to poverty and therefore crime, can it be understood that some people (cough cough qman) think they are biologically-determined to be criminals. That assigns characteristics and ranking to the races and it is THIS and not just noting differences is what is racism. If black = criminal to people, how does that in turn contribute to community relations? While the poverty of the situation can perpetuate racist notions, surely you understand that those racist notions in turn contribute to the poverty of the community.
Saying black people have bigger lips on average to white people is not racist, saying that black people are innately prone to violence in a way unlike white people then that is racist. There is talking about difference, then there is talk about biologically programmed behaviours, personality characteristics etc. "BLACK PEOPLE" are a heck of a lot more diverse genetically than "white people".
Also another point is that racism is understood to have a power structure behind it, maintaining that ranking. If it is black communities on the receiving end of systemic racially-prejudicial treatment, its going to have a bigger impact than calling people "cracker" or some shit. It can mean the difference between poverty and prosperity.
I don't agree. Lets assume, hypothetically, that Qman is right, and that biologically black people are really more prone to aggression, and this could in fact be identified as being the result of a unique genetic difference. In this case, under your interpretation, the universe, or God, as it were, is racist. The mere thought or belief that people are different is not racist. Treating people different or advocating such treatment based in anyway on those differences, whether perceived or fully demonstrated, is racist. The belief that "black people", in general, are more prone to having big lips, more prone to being violent, or more prone to playing basketball, is not racist if I base it on science. If I go up to a random black person and ask him to autograph my basketball, or belittle him for having unique facial features, or yell at him to back off and warn him with a pistol, that is racist. I have TREATED him DIFFERENT based on his race.
There is also, as with everything, the element of intent. If I am autistic and I simply run up to everyone and ask them to sign my basketball, I am not racist when I run up to the black man and do the same. You have to be treating them DIFFERENT than others, and it must be based on RACE.
Races are different biologically. Broad races can be differentiated based on jaw bones alone, when there is no skin or facial features. Kenyans are successful long distance runners because of the unique physical attributes in the bones of their legs, which allow them perform better in long races. This is not racist, it is a matter of fact. Black people have a higher proportion of explosive muscle to slow twitch muscle than white people, on average. You can see the results of this proven in the NFL, where the overwhelming majority of the positions requiring elite athletes are filled by African Americans. The wide-outs, running backs, line backers, corner backs, safeties; are OVERWHELMINGLY black, despite the fact that there are far more white people in the country. Not that there aren't Jordy Nelson's and Brian Urlacers, but, when taken on average, the differences in genetics are clearly there. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one another. Pointing that out is NOT RACIST, it is a scientific fact, provable through the scientific process and statistics. Treating people differently, or advocating such treatment, based on these differences, is racist.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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qman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
#23832002 - 11/14/16 11:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: Tipote said:
Quote:
If black people are more prone to poverty and therefore crime, can it be understood that some people (cough cough qman) think they are biologically-determined to be criminals. That assigns characteristics and ranking to the races and it is THIS and not just noting differences is what is racism. If black = criminal to people, how does that in turn contribute to community relations? While the poverty of the situation can perpetuate racist notions, surely you understand that those racist notions in turn contribute to the poverty of the community.
Saying black people have bigger lips on average to white people is not racist, saying that black people are innately prone to violence in a way unlike white people then that is racist. There is talking about difference, then there is talk about biologically programmed behaviours, personality characteristics etc. "BLACK PEOPLE" are a heck of a lot more diverse genetically than "white people".
Also another point is that racism is understood to have a power structure behind it, maintaining that ranking. If it is black communities on the receiving end of systemic racially-prejudicial treatment, its going to have a bigger impact than calling people "cracker" or some shit. It can mean the difference between poverty and prosperity.
I don't agree. Lets assume, hypothetically, that Qman is right, and that biologically black people are really more prone to aggression, and this could in fact be identified as being the result of a unique genetic difference. In this case, under your interpretation, the universe, or God, as it were, is racist. The mere thought or belief that people are different is not racist. Treating people different or advocating such treatment based in anyway on those differences, whether perceived or fully demonstrated, is racist. The belief that "black people", in general, are more prone to having big lips, more prone to being violent, or more prone to playing basketball, is not racist if I base it on science. If I go up to a random black person and ask him to autograph my basketball, or belittle him for having unique facial features, or yell at him to back off and warn him with a pistol, that is racist. I have TREATED him DIFFERENT based on his race.
There is also, as with everything, the element of intent. If I am autistic and I simply run up to everyone and ask them to sign my basketball, I am not racist when I run up to the black man and do the same. You have to be treating them DIFFERENT than others, and it must be based on RACE.
Races are different biologically. Broad races can be differentiated based on jaw bones alone, when there is no skin or facial features. Kenyans are successful long distance runners because of the unique physical attributes in the bones of their legs, which allow them perform better in long races. This is not racist, it is a matter of fact. Black people have a higher proportion of explosive muscle to slow twitch muscle than white people, on average. You can see the results of this proven in the NFL, where the overwhelming majority of the positions requiring elite athletes are filled by African Americans. The wide-outs, running backs, line backers, corner backs, safeties; are OVERWHELMINGLY black, despite the fact that there are far more white people in the country. Not that there aren't Jordy Nelson's and Brian Urlacers, but, when taken on average, the differences in genetics are clearly there. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one another. Pointing that out is NOT RACIST, it is a scientific fact, provable through the scientific process and statistics. Treating people differently, or advocating such treatment, based on these differences, is racist.
Very well said, you can't win with people like Tip, even when I prove blacks are superior in a several different physical aspects, he still suggests that I still think whites are superior (qman is racist). 
Pointing out biological differences is NOT racism, it's observation and nothing more, only if someone mistreats them because of those differences does racism enter the equation.
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qman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#23832165 - 11/14/16 12:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Tipote said: Day 1 in Trump’s America
Do any Trump supporters want to pretend there isnt a racist element and that racists haven't been empowered in this election?
qman? is it actually called patriotism, not racism? 
I have always warned of a major backlash, you seem to promote pushing people to their limits and then scream "racism" when it comes back to bite those people in the ass.
Don't confuse people not responding immediately with "social progress", there are major ramifications for Political Correctness, BLM's riots and Obama stirring the pot, payback can be a bitch. 
Qman, you are a racist. Your whole little rant about biological differences, etc, sounds like a Eugenics speech. You are just defending your racism. Bravo. Have you not argued on behalf of police treating blacks differently because they are black? Have you not argued that their increased violence has nothing to do with socioeconomic status? You have.
By the way, we are all well aware that there are biological differences between black people and white people. After all, their skin is black, and ours is white.
"Qman, you are racist"
I never stated blacks/whites or Asians were inferior. I explained there are biological differences, that's all.
"sounds like Eugenics"
Not even close, nice speculation without any evidence.
"we are all aware there are differences between black and white people"
But only when someone like myself points it out, I'm a "racist", that sounds like a very inconsistent line of reasoning. You can't have it both ways.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Posts: 20,817
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman] 2
#23832420 - 11/14/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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you are disregarding the relevance of perceived intent. Example: I punch a guy in the face and take his wallet--I am the bad guy
I punch a guy in the face as he's trying to steal an old lady's purse--I am the good guy
The same action (punching a guy in the face) garners a different reaction from bystanders based on perceived intent.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: plurfekt] 1
#23833272 - 11/14/16 06:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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plurfekt said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't understand what benefit there would be to "fuck the system up". The common man would get screwed, and the rich would be just fine.
I totally agree we need a big change, but crumbling the current system will only hurt us.
Think of it like building a house in place of a broken down condemned old shack, in order to lay the new foundation you must bring it to the ground and lay the foundation. You don't sit there patching hopeless leaks and replacing things rotting at a rate faster than you can rebuild
The foundation is fine; America is still one of the world's great countries. The problems are that the toilets aren't working, the carpets are torn, and the lawn is dried out (to use your analogy). We just need to fix the problems, not tear down the whole house, because that would leave us without a home for a long time to come.
Quote:
plurfekt said: Government - the concept that a few people out there (especially in corrupt politics and organized crime; which is all politics really are in America) should have the right and the all-seeing power to govern you, rather than you governing your own life as an individual.
Anarchism - Self-governing. To me it has Nothing to do with chaos beyond the initial "tearing down of that old system to build a better one" process.
I really like amp244's response to this.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/14/16 07:01 PM)
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite


Registered: 10/28/11
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman] 1
#23834614 - 11/15/16 07:33 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Tipote said:
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qman said: It's been widely accepted that there's genetic differences between the races beside skin color, I guess they're all racist, right Tip? 
have you forgotten how to read? I said there is talking about difference and then there is talking about hierarchy. When people say BLACK people. what do they mean? There is incredible variation between all groups you'd class as black.
So now it's about semantics, I wouldn't except anything less Tip. 
My point was that there is such variation between every group identified as black that you can't make any blanket statements - especially about genetically-directed behaviour.
Again, we can talk about differences - black Africans are more likely to have sickle-cell disease which also CAN serve as both a resistance and weakness to malaria than white people..black Nigerians are more likely than blacks in S Africa. there is evidence to back this up. Now you try!
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Tipote said: where is the evidence that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit crime?
Please tell me you're playing dumb, or maybe you just don't get it.
No, really, you have never given that evidence. You might come out with some data about how blacks are more likely to be arrested or something but that is not the same thing.
Humour me - if you really feel this is clearly been proven somehow.
--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite


Registered: 10/28/11
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Last seen: 8 months, 17 days
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman]
#23834616 - 11/15/16 07:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Tipote said: Day 1 in Trump’s America
Do any Trump supporters want to pretend there isnt a racist element and that racists haven't been empowered in this election?
qman? is it actually called patriotism, not racism? 
I have always warned of a major backlash, you seem to promote pushing people to their limits and then scream "racism" when it comes back to bite those people in the ass.
and how and where have I been promoting that??
--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite


Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 5,410
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Last seen: 8 months, 17 days
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244] 1
#23834704 - 11/15/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: I don't agree. Lets assume, hypothetically, that Qman is right, and that biologically black people are really more prone to aggression, and this could in fact be identified as being the result of a unique genetic difference. In this case, under your interpretation, the universe, or God, as it were, is racist. The mere thought or belief that people are different is not racist. Treating people different or advocating such treatment based in anyway on those differences, whether perceived or fully demonstrated, is racist. The belief that "black people", in general, are more prone to having big lips, more prone to being violent, or more prone to playing basketball, is not racist if I base it on science. If I go up to a random black person and ask him to autograph my basketball, or belittle him for having unique facial features, or yell at him to back off and warn him with a pistol, that is racist. I have TREATED him DIFFERENT based on his race.
There is also, as with everything, the element of intent. If I am autistic and I simply run up to everyone and ask them to sign my basketball, I am not racist when I run up to the black man and do the same. You have to be treating them DIFFERENT than others, and it must be based on RACE.
Races are different biologically. Broad races can be differentiated based on jaw bones alone, when there is no skin or facial features. Kenyans are successful long distance runners because of the unique physical attributes in the bones of their legs, which allow them perform better in long races. This is not racist, it is a matter of fact. Black people have a higher proportion of explosive muscle to slow twitch muscle than white people, on average. You can see the results of this proven in the NFL, where the overwhelming majority of the positions requiring elite athletes are filled by African Americans. The wide-outs, running backs, line backers, corner backs, safeties; are OVERWHELMINGLY black, despite the fact that there are far more white people in the country. Not that there aren't Jordy Nelson's and Brian Urlacers, but, when taken on average, the differences in genetics are clearly there. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one another. Pointing that out is NOT RACIST, it is a scientific fact, provable through the scientific process and statistics. Treating people differently, or advocating such treatment, based on these differences, is racist.
ok apparently you as well as qman did not read my post or I was not absolutely clear enough. I said very clearly that talking about difference based on scientific fact is not racist - even if it says that people from eg. Kenya are more likely to exhibit a phenotype than someone from Ohio. I dont know about the evidence behind this twitch-muscle thing you keep mentioning but I'm not suggesting that would be racist. BUT what there is no evidence for is that blacks are genetically-predisposed to violence and crime. If there is no evidence then it is pure conjecture based on (in qman's case) a long established prejudice.
I'm saying that the categorisation of the races in a hierarchy especially with the power structure that goes with it is racist. That is NOT as simple as the reductionist definition of "treating people differently according to race is racist". Otherwise you could make the case that reparations for slavery were racist..(which qman would probably say actually...) If I said black people have bigger lips and that makes them worse than whites then it is racism. If I say that blacks are innately criminal and violent (without any conclusive evidence)then it is racist as it implies inferiority.
While white male dominance is threatened, white supremacy is an established political order which is still in the process of collapse. When qman makes these baseless statements, he reveals his clear ranking with only his prejudice to back it up.
Did you ever have the displeasure of meeting WAN? The Asian immigrant to Canada who hated non-whites. She even said she grew up with the idea that whites are best, then asian..and then people squabble about the order but blacks at the bottom with arabs above them. Can you pretend that has not been the defacto status quo of how people construct race hierarchy? in Sudan, there is Arab superiority over black Sudanese groups.
race is a human construct and should not be used so rigidly. It can be useful when talking about some important biological differences based on scientific proof and used as a rough guide.
--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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qman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Tipote]
#23834721 - 11/15/16 08:29 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tipote said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Tipote said:
Quote:
qman said: It's been widely accepted that there's genetic differences between the races beside skin color, I guess they're all racist, right Tip? 
have you forgotten how to read? I said there is talking about difference and then there is talking about hierarchy. When people say BLACK people. what do they mean? There is incredible variation between all groups you'd class as black.
So now it's about semantics, I wouldn't except anything less Tip. 
My point was that there is such variation between every group identified as black that you can't make any blanket statements - especially about genetically-directed behaviour.
Again, we can talk about differences - black Africans are more likely to have sickle-cell disease which also CAN serve as both a resistance and weakness to malaria than white people..black Nigerians are more likely than blacks in S Africa. there is evidence to back this up. Now you try!
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Tipote said: where is the evidence that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit crime?
Please tell me you're playing dumb, or maybe you just don't get it.
No, really, you have never given that evidence. You might come out with some data about how blacks are more likely to be arrested or something but that is not the same thing.
Humour me - if you really feel this is clearly been proven somehow. 
"where is the evidence that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit crime"
You didn't know, Scientist's isolated the specific genes for blowing stops signs, possession of drugs, disturbing the peace and petty thief. Do you even realize how absurd your question is?
Again, are you even playing dumb? I'm beginning to wonder.
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite


Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 5,410
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Last seen: 8 months, 17 days
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman] 1
#23834726 - 11/15/16 08:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Pointing out biological differences is NOT racism, it's observation and nothing more, only if someone mistreats them because of those differences does racism enter the equation.
As I've said repeatedly now.. biological differences supported by fact are not racist. Your baseless assumption that blacks are innately violent not only is racist and without truth in itself but puts people of colour in a position where they will be mistreated for their race - as you put it. RACISM!!
I know some aspects are hard to get your head around. I learned a lot from hearing the perspectives of black people themselves.
--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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