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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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The Report from Iron Mountain * 1
    #23832405 - 11/14/16 02:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Has anyone heard of this or read it before?
There is some controversy over it's authenticity.  It was published as non-fiction originally, then years later, the alleged author claimed that it was satire.  I started reading it and its pretty interesting so far.

check it out here if you want.


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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23832572 - 11/14/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The production of weapons of mass destruction has always been associated with economic "waste." The term is pejorative, since it implies a failure of function. But no human activity can properly be considered wasteful if it achieves its contextual objective. The phrase "wasteful but necessary," applied not only to war expenditures but to most of the "unproductive" commercial activities of our society, is a contradiction in terms. "...The attacks that have since the time of Samuel's criticism of King Saul been leveled against military expenditures as waste may well have concealed or misunderstood the point that some kinds of waste may have a larger social utility." In the case of military "waste," there is indeed a larger social utility. It derives from the fact that the "wastefulness" of war production is exercised entirely outside the framework of the economy of supply and demand. As such, it provides the only critically large segment of the total economy that is subject to complete and arbitrary central control. If modern industrial societies can be defined as those which have developed the capacity to produce more than is required for their economic survival (regardless of the equities of distribution of goods within them), military spending can be said to furnish the only balance wheel with sufficient inertia to stabilize the advance of their economies. The
fact that war is "wasteful" is what enables it to serve this function. And the faster the economy advances, the heavier this balance wheel must be. This function is often viewed, oversimply, as a device for the control of surpluses. One writer on the subject puts it this way: "Why is war so wonderful? Because it creates artificial demand...the only kind of artificial demand, moreover, that does not raise any political issues: war, and only war, solves the problem of inventory." The reference here is to shooting war, but it applies equally to the general war economy as well. "It is generally agreed," concludes, more cautiously, the report of a panel set up by the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, "that the greatly expanded public sector since World War II, resulting from heavy defense expenditures, has provided additional protection against depressions, since this sector is not responsive to contraction
in the private sector and has provided a sort of buffer or balance wheel in the economy." The principal economic function of war, in our view, is that it provides just such a flywheel. It is not to be confused in function with the various forms of fiscal control, none of which directly engages vast numbers of control, none of which directly engages vast numbers of men and units of production. It is not to be confused with massive government expenditures in social welfare programs; once initiated, such programs normally become integral parts of the general economy and are no longer subject to arbitrary control. But even in the context of the general civilian economy war cannot be considered wholly "wasteful." Without a long-established war economy, and without its frequent eruption into large-scale shooting war, most of the major industrial advances known to history, beginning with the development of iron, could never have taken place. Weapons technology structures the economy. According to the writer cited above, "Nothing is more ironic or revealing about our society than the fact that hugely destructive war is a very progressive force in it. ... War production is progressive because it is production that would not otherwise have taken place. (It is not so widely appreciated, for example, that the civilian standard of living rose during World War II.)" This is not "ironic or revealing," but essentially a simple statement of fact. It should also be noted that the war production has a dependably stimulating effect outside itself. Far from constituting a "wasteful" drain on the economy, war spending, considered pragmatically, has been a consistently positive factor in the rise of gross national product and of individual productivity. A former Secretary of the Army has carefully phrased it for public consumption thus: "If there is, as I suspect there is, a direct relation between the stimulus of large defense spending and a substantially increased rate of growth of gross national product, it quite simply follows that defense spending per se might be countenanced on economic grounds alone [emphasis added] as a stimulator of the national metabolism." Actually, the fundamental nonmilitary utility of war in the economy is far more widely acknowledged than the scarcity of such affirmations as that quoted above would suggest. But negatively phrased public recognitions of the importance of war to the general economy abound. The most familiar example is the effect of "peace threats" on the stock market, e.g., "Wall Street was shaken yesterday by news of
an apparent peace feeler from North Vietnam, but swiftly recovered its composure after about an hour of sometimes indiscriminate selling." Savings banks solicit deposits with similar cautionary slogans, e.g., "If peace breaks out, will you be ready for it?" A more subtle case in point was the recent refusal of the Department of Defense to permit the West German government to substitute nonmilitary goods for unwanted armaments in its purchase commitments from the United States; the decisive consideration was that the German purchases should not affect the general (nonmilitary) economy. Other incidental examples are to be found in the pressures brought to bear on the Department when it announces plans to close down an obsolete facility (as a "wasteful" form of "waste"). and in the usual coordination of stepped-up military activities (as in Vietnam in 1965) with dangerously rising unemployment rates. Although we do not imply that a substitute for war in the economy cannot be devised, no combination of techniques for controlling employment, production, and consumption has yet been tested that can remotely compare to it in effectiveness. It is, and has been, the essential economic stabilizer of modern
societies.




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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23834827 - 11/15/16 09:18 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

:okay:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23836978 - 11/15/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
:okay:



Can you give us a short(er) summary?  :shrug:


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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23837217 - 11/15/16 10:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ill read it tomorrow morning and post one at night.  That is, if its not completely coo coo for coco puffs.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23837355 - 11/15/16 11:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
:okay:



Can you give us a short(er) summary?  :shrug:




tl;dr
war waste is necessary for "stability" of society at large


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23838524 - 11/16/16 11:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
:okay:



Can you give us a short(er) summary?  :shrug:




tl;dr
war waste is necessary for "stability" of society at large



Thanks.

The basic premise of the long summary you posted is that war is good because it provides jobs, economic stimulus, and stability regardless of whether the economy is up or down.  That part I can agree with.

But if we as a country are smart enough to recognize the benefits of continuous Government spending, we are better off spending that money on things that actually benefit everyone, like infrastructure projects rather than bombs.  That money would have the same impact on the economy, but would have the added benefit of providing everyone with bridges, libraries, and things that make everyone's lives better.

I guess the problem is that war is the only thing that both sides can generally agree to spend money on even when the economy is down.  But if we recognize the benefit that Government spending can have on the economy, we can do a lot better than "wasting" that money on war.


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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23838652 - 11/16/16 12:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In advanced modern democratic societies, the war system has provided political leaders with another political-economic function of increasing importance: it has served as the last great safeguard against the elimination of necessary social classes. As economic productivity increases to a level further and further above that of minimum subsistence, it becomes more and more difficult for a society to maintain distribution patterns insuring the existence of "hewers of wood and drawers of water". The further progress of automation can be expected to differentiate still more sharply between "superior" workers and what Ricardo called "menials," while simultaneously aggravating the problem of maintaining an unskilled labor supply. The arbitrary nature of war expenditures and of other military activities make them ideally suited to control these essential class relationships. Obviously, if the war system were to be discarded, new political machinery would be needed at once to serve this vital subfunction. Until it is developed, the continuance of the war system must be assured, if for no other reason, among others, than to
preserve whatever quality and degree of poverty a society requires as an incentive, as well as to maintain the stability of its internal organization of power




Quote:

Man's ability to increase his productivity of the essentials of physical life suggests that the need for protection against cyclical famine may be nearly obsolete. It has thus tended to reduce the apparent importance of the basic ecological function of war, which is generally disregarded by peace theorists. Two aspects of its remain especially relevant, however. The first is obvious: current rates of population growth, compounded by environmental threat to chemical and other contaminants, may well bring about a new crisis of insufficiency. If so, it is likely to be one of unprecedented global magnitude, not merely regional or temporary. Conventional methods of warfare would almost surely prove inadequate, in this event, to reduce the consuming population to a level consistent with survival of the species. The second relevant factor is the efficiency of modern methods of mass destruction. Even if their use is not required to meet a world population crisis, they offer, perhaps paradoxically, the first opportunity in the history of man to halt the regressive genetic effects of natural selection by war. Nuclear weapons are indiscriminate. Their application would bring to an end the disproportionate destruction of the physically stronger members of the species (the "warriors") in periods of war. Whether this prospect of genetic gain would offset the unfavorable mutations anticipated from postnuclear radioactivity we have not yet determined. What gives the question a bearing on our study is the possibility
that the determination may yet have to be made. Another secondary ecological trend bearing on projected population growth is the regressive effect of certain medical advances. Pestilence, for example, is no longer an important factor in population control. The problem of increased life expectancy has been aggravated. These advances also pose a potentially more sinister problem, in that undesirable genetic traits that were formerly selfliquidating are now medically maintained. Many diseases that were once fatal at preprocreational ages are now cured; the effect of this development is to perpetuate undesirable susceptibilities and mutations. It seems clear that a new quasi-eugenic function of war is now in process of formation that will have to be taken into account in any transition plan.




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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23838788 - 11/16/16 01:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

In advanced modern democratic societies, the war system has provided political leaders with another political-economic function of increasing importance: it has served as the last great safeguard against the elimination of necessary social classes.

...the continuance of the war system must be assured, if for no other reason, among others, than to
preserve whatever quality and degree of poverty a society requires as an incentive, as well as to maintain the stability of its internal organization of power






Another argument against military spending imho.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

current rates of population growth, compounded by environmental threat to chemical and other contaminants, may well bring about a new crisis of insufficiency. If so, it is likely to be one of unprecedented global magnitude, not merely regional or temporary. Conventional methods of warfare would almost surely prove inadequate, in this event, to reduce the consuming population to a level consistent with survival of the species.






Mass killing isn't the best way to prevent this.  Population control, like China had, would be a lot better imho.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

The second relevant factor is the efficiency of modern methods of mass destruction. Even if their use is not required to meet a world population crisis, they offer, perhaps paradoxically, the first opportunity in the history of man to halt the regressive genetic effects of natural selection by war. Nuclear weapons are indiscriminate. Their application would bring to an end the disproportionate destruction of the physically stronger members of the species (the "warriors") in periods of war. Whether this prospect of genetic gain would offset the unfavorable mutations anticipated from postnuclear radioactivity we have not yet determined. What gives the question a bearing on our study is the possibility
that the determination may yet have to be made. Another secondary ecological trend bearing on projected population growth is the regressive effect of certain medical advances. Pestilence, for example, is no longer an important factor in population control. The problem of increased life expectancy has been aggravated. These advances also pose a potentially more sinister problem, in that undesirable genetic traits that were formerly selfliquidating are now medically maintained. Many diseases that were once fatal at preprocreational ages are now cured; the effect of this development is to perpetuate undesirable susceptibilities and mutations. It seems clear that a new quasi-eugenic function of war is now in process of formation that will have to be taken into account in any transition plan.






Now we're getting into crazy talk.  Nuclear war is good from an evolutionary perspective?


Why did you post this?  Is there anything in it you agree with?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23838938 - 11/16/16 02:08 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I disagree with almost everything in the report.  I posted it because its spooky as fuck that people in positions of power may have been thinking this way back in the mid 60's (if the report were authentic, which is not conclusively proven), and because i wanted to see how political discussion regulars would weigh in on the report's conclusions.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23838948 - 11/16/16 02:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I posted it because its spooky as fuck that people in positions of power may have been thinking this way back in the mid 60's...



Ah, ok.  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23838977 - 11/16/16 02:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

In advanced modern democratic societies, the war system has provided political leaders with another political-economic function of increasing importance: it has served as the last great safeguard against the elimination of necessary social classes.

...the continuance of the war system must be assured, if for no other reason, among others, than to
preserve whatever quality and degree of poverty a society requires as an incentive, as well as to maintain the stability of its internal organization of power






Another argument against military spending imho.




This is one of the most chilling parts of the report IMO.  Its essentially an admission that waste is required to offset the higher standard of living that increased human production should bring to everyone in order that some can be kept in artificial poverty, thereby perpetuating the existence of a ruling class of oligarchs.  Flash forward 50 years and here we are.  In a perpetual state of war for decades, though we call it peace, and there is widespread poverty worldwide despite being the most productive generation of humans in history, and a relatively small group of trans-nationals hold the purse-strings of power.

Edit: to be clear, public works are somewhat unsuitable as an outlet for surplus production in this sense because such projects tend to benefit society as a whole, which raises the standard of living of the poor relative to the rich by virtue of their larger numbers. 


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Edited by ballsalsa (11/16/16 02:33 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23839031 - 11/16/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ya, it's some whacky thinking for sure.  :cuckoo:


--------------------
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23839136 - 11/16/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

this one is pretty sketchy:

Quote:

Another possible surrogate for the control of potential enemies of society is the reintroduction, in some form consistent with modern technology and political processes, of slavery. Up to now, this has been suggested only in fiction, notably in the works of Wells, Huxley, Orwell, and others engaged in the imaginative anticipation of the sociology of the future. But the fantasies projected in Brave New World and 1984 have seemed less and less implausible over the years since their publication. The traditional association of slavery with ancient preindustrial cultures should not blind us to its adaptability to advanced forms of social organization, nor should its equally traditional incompatibility with Western moral and economic values. It is entirely possible that the development of a sophisticated form of slavery may be an absolute prerequisite for social control in a world at peace. As a practical matter, conversion of the code of military discipline to a euphemized form of enslavement would entail surprisingly little revision; the logical first step would be the adoption of some form of "universal" military service.




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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23839481 - 11/16/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So basically this was a take on how War has its place in man's long term goals of providing meaning and resources?  And how it is both engineered for profit and control and also occurs naturally?

And how it is used to create an large scale Order?

And how people in power know this and use it to benefit themselves and society at large ? and it is semi-orchestrated ? 

Am I getting this right?  Idk I feel like i wasted time.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (11/16/16 04:57 PM)


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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23888954 - 12/02/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

ooOOOoooh, How hadn't I seen this before. I'm digging through it now but my early thoughts are:

its reads a bit like a novel, it is a fictional novel... right? Otherwise what is the "Middle West" and "Hudson," where Iron Mountain are supposedly near

where did you find this?


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: Crumist]
    #23889015 - 12/02/16 09:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

my dad told me about it back in the 90's when he still didn't know if he believed in global warming yet.  Recently, i scoured google, and found that.  I showed it to him, and he was like "yeah, i told you about this 20 years ago".
Anyway, i don't know if it was real or not.  The issue seems somewhat ambiguous.  even if it was fiction, it's kinda spooky.


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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23889181 - 12/02/16 10:08 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I'm interested. I'm gonna start reading this and let you know what I think.


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Re: The Report from Iron Mountain [Re: amp244]
    #23890690 - 12/03/16 01:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

I'm up to section 5, and although I question its authenticity; it seems a bit verbose, redundant, and targeted toward non-government readers to be a genuine report, designed to inform non-technical members of the government; I find its basic premise to be fascinating.

"War itself is the basic social system, within which other secondary modes of social organization conflict or conspire. It is the system which has governed most human societies of record, as it is today."

We all think of wars as being subservient to the societies in which they operate. We ascribe some political, economic, moral, defensive, or religious motivation to war, and think of the resulting wars as being a manifestation of those motivations. The report assumes the opposite to be true. The war state is what brings order to other magnitudes of social order. The evidence given is very limited but amounts (thus far) to :

1.) "...even in today's world there exist no conceivable conflict of interest, real or imaginary, between nations or between social forces within nations, that cannot be resolved without recourse to war--if such resolution were assigned a priority of social value."
Double and triple negatives aside, war seems to be ubiquitous, yet the author(s) note that none of the wars are necessary. All could be settled by other means.

2.) Highly specialized labor that is currently employed in the armament industry, will not be able to be easily absorbed into the economy. War factories will not be able to seamlessly integrate into society. I think they claimed 10% of the world's entire economy is centered around war, which is highly specialized. I believe it. It appears to be an industry that creates a demand for war, and therefore, creates war. The author(s) observe that in the absence of an ostensible motivation for war, like those typical motivations listed above, a society will naturally impute one.

I'm gonna finish this up today most likely.


--------------------
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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (12/03/16 01:40 PM)


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