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Mattisfat
Learning


Registered: 01/20/16
Posts: 570
Loc: Newcastle, England
Last seen: 3 years, 21 days
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171865 - 03/18/17 09:29 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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mycelium eats its substrate by creating enzymes to break down the nutrients on offer, now given the fact that there are nutrients in the fertiliser that it can use why cant it use them/ break them down. You havnt given me any reasons why it cant digest the fertiliser - you just keep stomping your feet saying that it wont. A good possibility is that the levels of nutrients in the fertiliser arent enough for cubensis to fruit to its full potential - if we can figure out what else it needs or has too much of then you can alter the tek and get better fruits. I am happy to change my mind if someone can provide scientific evidence that i am wrong, just no-one is giving me that atm.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171874 - 03/18/17 09:36 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's not that none of the components of ferts are useless to cubes, more that they simply cannot use them in that amount. Nitrogen, potassium, calcium or sulfur are good for the organism but, it needs those things in such small quantities that the volume provided in plant ferts are kind of overkill. Meanwhile the nutes the species needs in abundance are absent from the ferts. Cubes want cellulose, protein and some starch more than nitrogen or potassium.
Giving cubes plant ferts to live on is like a person trying to survive on nothing more than vitamin suppliments.
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Mattisfat
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Pastywhyte]
#24171877 - 03/18/17 09:39 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: It's not that none of the components of ferts are useless to cubes, more that they simply cannot use them in that amount. Nitrogen, potassium, calcium or sulfur are good for the organism but, it needs those things in such small quantities that the volume provided in plant ferts are kind of overkill. Meanwhile the nutes the species needs in abundance are absent from the ferts. Cubes want cellulose protein and some starch more than nitrogen or potassium.
Giving cubes plant ferts to live on is like a person trying to survive on nothing more than vitamin suppliments.
This is a much better answer, thank you pastywhyte. Have you tried figuring out what sort of percentages of those nutrients is benificial?
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Mattisfat
Learning


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Posts: 570
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171882 - 03/18/17 09:42 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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btw it looks like paper is made with alot of cellulose and starch - i cant seem to find the percentages though
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Loc: Canada
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171884 - 03/18/17 09:42 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, but I have found that since cubes fruit prolifically from simple grain and coir extremely well and those materials only contain those things in trace amounts. I add nitrogen to my spawn via coffee in the grain soak and that's it. Get great results.
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blackout


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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171891 - 03/18/17 09:44 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mattisfat said: Its clearly not just the nutrients from the spawn anyway, if that was the case then the myc wouldnt expand through the sub as the spawn is already colonised. Also it wouldnt be fruiting so well -its clearly eating up the sub with the added nutes.
Why would colonised spawn not expand? If it was verm it would have grown through it, and RR shows it grows through fabric or paper.
In the pics of RR's woodchips it was not simply cubes on wood.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5466797
it was cubes on colonised wood. I wonder if it could possibly have been feeding off the myc of the other "woodlover mushroom".
1/8th of a cup of grain was used in this, that is not is not insignificant by any means, it would be interesting it if had been weighed properly to see the BE, which could be a good indication if it is using the paper. I have gotten high BE off small grows.
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Mycolorado
Hobbyist


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 8,529
Loc: Interdimensional Bootcamp
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mycolorado]
#24171892 - 03/18/17 09:45 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Honestly, who cares? Now that this bitch broke 1000 (thanks dildo!) and the mighty pasty has spoken, may as well lock it! Was curious watching people get all worked up over nothing, though.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Loc: Canada
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171895 - 03/18/17 09:46 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mattisfat said: btw it looks like paper is made with alot of cellulose and starch - i cant seem to find the percentages though
Its lacking protein and is high in lignin. Lignin is useless to cubes as a food source however most agaricales are able to colonize it easily. It might be suitable as bulk substrate because the purpose of bulk is mostly to provide water.
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Mattisfat
Learning


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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Pastywhyte]
#24171911 - 03/18/17 09:54 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Pasty where were you 2 pages ago mate haha So are you saying water content is more important in bulk sub, nutrients dont make noticable difference?
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171916 - 03/18/17 09:58 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mattisfat said: Pasty where were you 2 pages ago mate haha So are you saying water content is more important in bulk sub, nutrients dont make noticable difference?
Absolutely. I did a side by side on this like a year ago. Coir verm sub outperformed a coir verm manure sub. Manure is thought to hold more nutes so I was initially thinking it would be advantage manure. Then it didn't, 3 separate clones all did better on the simple coir verm. Coir does hold a lot more water than manure so the coir tubs were heavier despite having the same volume of sub.
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Mattisfat
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Pastywhyte]
#24171925 - 03/18/17 10:02 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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So what if you used a really small amount of coir and mixed with a load of verm - that would give you a really great water content and the substrate should all colonise. Surely that would then give great fruits? Sorry if im coming across confrontational im not trying to be - i, like ferather just wanted a greater understanding of how the organism functions.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171929 - 03/18/17 10:04 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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You can grow with just verm as the bulk. It's called rez tek. I did it a few times and had great results. Only problem is verm is a lot more expensive than coir. Coir also has a bit of a better texture for pinning.
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Mattisfat
Learning


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Posts: 570
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171939 - 03/18/17 10:08 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Right, well that makes sense. Thanks Pasty.
One last question, could it be that it has enough nutes due to high spawn ratio? if you sterilised you sub and used less spawn, would it need added nutes to the bulk sub?
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24171945 - 03/18/17 10:10 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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The high spawn ratios we use are for sure a big factor. Less spawn might need a more nute loaded sub. But I'm not convinced coir is as devoid of nutes as people think. Working on an experiment for that.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Pastywhyte]
#24171956 - 03/18/17 10:17 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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https://www.thesuperfoods.net/coconut/benefits-of-coconut-fibre
just googling 'eating coconut fiber' brings up a ton of shit. i guarantee its has nutes just not the kind invasive molds need??? no clue about that one.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: mushboy]
#24172000 - 03/18/17 10:40 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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I've been doing solely coir+spawn tubs. No verm no gypsum. Just oats and coir.
They go 5/6 flushes no problem. First flush is generally in the .75-1.25 oz per quart of spawn using average not stellar performance clones. The overall yield over all the flushes together is around 2.5-3.5oz per quart.
~100 gram fruits coming out of a substrate past the 4th crumbled up in a trash bag

On an only coir and oat tub
Mycelium digests the spawn/sub slowly. Metabolism creates heat so too much nutrition can be detrimental.
Edibles are supplemented sometimes but spawn rates are usually far lower than we do with cubensis.
There's more than enough power from spawn alone. So no shit you get pins on paper and wood. You had to inoculate the wood or paper with something that something is powering the fruits.
The substrate should supply water effectively to support the flush.
We call them poo lovers but I think they're more grass lovers and poo is a niche environment and water source and pin platform in big open fields with little shade and direct sunlight.
Regardless of what I think. Empericaly derived evidence shows that spawn is rarely used to potential so substrate choice basically means shit since most people can't push 2oz per quart of spawn anyway. When you can do that you'll realize substrate choice is more about water retention and supply. Coir is damn near impossible to contaminate so that's just more benefits
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mushboy
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: bodhisatta]
#24172033 - 03/18/17 10:55 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
There's more than enough power
Quote:
Violet said: But is there anything we can do to straight-up boost power? Why yes, my friends, there is!
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Mattisfat
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: mushboy]
#24172049 - 03/18/17 11:00 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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do cubes have different yield percentages if different spawn is used(wbs,rye,oats)? if you can figure out which spawn is the best you can compare nutrition and see what sub would work best if you tried to do a low spawn ratio. Maybe as long as the nutrients are within a certain range it doesnt matter? who knows, im just interested. I dont even grow cubes just edibles but this is great info/discussion...mostly.
Edited by Mattisfat (03/18/17 11:00 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: Mattisfat]
#24172057 - 03/18/17 11:05 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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"power boost" is how you get noobs to find your crap first. Unless there's some compelling evidence that "power" is boosted you shouldn't be false advertising.
Mycelium will slow it's metabolism so it doesn't bake itself. May as well use normal spawn rates and try to fruit it to its potential.
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Mattisfat
Learning


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Last seen: 3 years, 21 days
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Re: Cubes on Bastardized WL Tek (paper) [Re: bodhisatta]
#24172069 - 03/18/17 11:11 AM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: "power boost" is how you get noobs to find your crap first. Unless there's some compelling evidence that "power" is boosted you shouldn't be false advertising.
Mycelium will slow it's metabolism so it doesn't bake itself. May as well use normal spawn rates and try to fruit it to its potential.
not sure if the first part is for me or mushboy, im certainly not on about a power boost, more just trying to understand why a sub has enough nutrients and ways to improve your teks. If you did low spawn rates you could potentially save money and make your spawn jars go further.
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