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Invisibleflyontoast
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Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
Xylitol for agar?
    #23829748 - 11/13/16 04:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Any reason to believe that xylitol would be a poor additive to agar? This was asked before but got not response, they listed some benefits.
I've been reading up on it and while it is advertised as "naturally found" in trees, as with most industrial sugars, it's most likely from GMO corn. But if you could find one that specifically refined from trees, that intuitively seems like a good pick as an alternative agar nutrient.
On a similar note, why is malt extract the go-to agar nutrient? What are the "best properties" about it that make it desirable?


--------------------
:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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InvisibleRogerSmith

Registered: 01/29/15 Happy 9th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 365
Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: flyontoast]
    #23831251 - 11/14/16 05:57 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Why don't you try it? Experiment will give you proper answers.


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OfflineFerather
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Registered: 03/19/15
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: RogerSmith]
    #23831439 - 11/14/16 08:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yes if it has the genetics to digest it as energy.

Formula: C5-H12-O5
Melting point: 92°C
Molar mass: 152.15g/mol
IUPAC ID: (2R,3r,4S)-Pentane-1,2,3,4,5-pentol
Density: 1.52g/cm³
Boiling point: 216°C
Soluble in: Water


Good luck, Ferather  :thumbup:


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Invisibleflyontoast
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Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: RogerSmith]
    #23832009 - 11/14/16 11:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerSmith said:
Why don't you try it? Experiment will give you proper answers.



Don't need to buy any, there's some in my cupboard (nobody uses it, don't know how it got there). Just didn't want to waste the time making plates if someone already knew it was bunk.
But, yeah, I'll whip up a batch within the month and report back!


--------------------
:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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OfflineChk
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: flyontoast]
    #23834980 - 11/15/16 10:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i'd say it's likely that some mushrooms are able to metabolize xylitol.
Need to test to be sure ofc.

i wanted to do the test for quite some time and i forgot about it.

one benefit i can see is a lot of bacteria are unable to metabolize it.


--------------------


Edited by Chk (11/15/16 10:10 AM)


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: Chk]
    #23834991 - 11/15/16 10:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Still a sugar though, however it may not cause mutations.
Keep us updated, might have great potential.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineChk
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: Ferather]
    #23835008 - 11/15/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

That could be a great tool to clean bacterial plate if it works.

Edit: i just remembered i had a very bacterial spore syringe in the fridge.
sterilizing some plate as soon as my gf is finished with the stove.


--------------------


Edited by Chk (11/15/16 10:20 AM)


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: Chk]
    #23835020 - 11/15/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I see you reverse as well. Let me know what happens.



--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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OfflineChk
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: Ferather]
    #23835029 - 11/15/16 10:27 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ah yes, i'm probably a bit rusty since people ask me far more standard programming than reversing, but i'm still useful ^^


--------------------


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Invisiblecosmicaug
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Posts: 39
Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: flyontoast]
    #23835312 - 11/15/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

flyontoast said:
Any reason to believe that xylitol would be a poor additive to agar? This was asked before but got not response, they listed some benefits.



I have no idea. It seems likely to me that it would be perfectly fine for some fungi. I imagine that if you are dealing with some white rot fungus that laughs in the face of lignin it is likely to have little trouble with xylitol. This is only a guess on my part, though.

If you go ahead and try it, try it on more than one species, if you can. It may be the sort of thing that is great for most species that are likely to be of interest or it may be the sort of thing that works great for some but not others.



Quote:

flyontoast said:
I've been reading up on it and while it is advertised as "naturally found" in trees, as with most industrial sugars, it's most likely from GMO corn.



Why should it matter? Xylitol is xylitol.



Quote:

flyontoast said:
But if you could find one that specifically refined from trees, that intuitively seems like a good pick as an alternative agar nutrient.



Why should it matter that it came from trees? Xylitol is xylitol and it has no way of knowing that it came from a tree.



Quote:

flyontoast said:
On a similar note, why is malt extract the go-to agar nutrient? What are the "best properties" about it that make it desirable?




Undefined medium which probably has a little bit of everything. Additionally, it's rich in maltose which is very easy to use (1-6 alpha glycosidic bond joining two glucoses). As you imply, when you absolutely know that you are dealing with organisms which are good at utilizing hard to utilize carbon sources, such easy availability may be a bug rather than a feature.

In the end, for whatever reason, someone tried it and it worked very well. The rest of us are doing it because it was documented to work by whoever tried it the first time. Just look at the recipe list at Aloha Culture bank (use common sense because some of it has serious errors). Some of it looks like 'pick whatever happens to be in front of your face at the moment and throw some agar in with it'.


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OfflineFerather
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Registered: 03/19/15
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: cosmicaug]
    #23835324 - 11/15/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Some of those are quite funny. Great read lol  :thumbup:


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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Invisibleflyontoast
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Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: cosmicaug]
    #23835662 - 11/15/16 02:32 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Still a sugar though, however it may not cause mutations.
Keep us updated, might have great potential.



Excuse my noobness, but:
1) Sugars cause mutations?
2) Would you noticed these mutations in a plate? Can you give an example (or link) if so.


Quote:

cosmicaug said:
Quote:

flyontoast said:
I've been reading up on it and while it is advertised as "naturally found" in trees, as with most industrial sugars, it's most likely from GMO corn.



Why should it matter? Xylitol is xylitol.

Quote:

flyontoast said:
But if you could find one that specifically refined from trees, that intuitively seems like a good pick as an alternative agar nutrient.



Why should it matter that it came from trees? Xylitol is xylitol and it has no way of knowing that it came from a tree.




Cause I don't know enough about hydrogenation to know if the source material matters lol. Wikipeida says:
"Xylitol is produced by hydrogenation of xylose, which converts the sugar (an aldehyde) into a primary alcohol. Another method of producing xylitol is through microbial processes, including fermentative and biocatalytic processes in bacteria, fungi, and yeast cells, that take advantage of the xylose-intermediate fermentations to produce high yield of xylitol"
So I figured that 1) some "trace" properties or minerals may have been retained from the original source, and 2) since there's more than one way of getting xylitol, it simply reinforces my misconception from 1.

Also, some people don't want to support industrialized, pesticide, GMO corn and if given a non-GMO, non-prayed alternative they would choose it. And, more important than that: my organic certification requires that no GMO, synthetic fertilizer, or pesticides be brought onto the farm and/or used in the production process of any of the produce we sell (including manure/compost from GMO fed animals... which is as impossible to adhere to as it sounds. They demand receipts for everything).

Most of the agar recipes appear in the appendix of Radical Mycology... and I thought he had compiled that wacky list (the V8 and crushes shrimp being the ones that stand out most in my mind lol).

I'll definitely get this experiment going soon with all the new cultures I got. But they just arrived today so I'll be expanding those on new plates and grain for the next few days and have to make sure that's working (i.e., $$$) before I can go back to playing :wink:


--------------------
:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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Invisibleflyontoast
Farming food; farming time
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: flyontoast]
    #23835668 - 11/15/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

And thanks to everyone for the input thus far. It feels good to embark on this line of though and experiment with some vets "supervising" lol


--------------------
:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFerather
Mycological
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Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: flyontoast]
    #23835803 - 11/15/16 03:16 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

P. Stamets says in one of his books that prolonged growth on simple sugars causes issues.
Genetic loss, loss of vitality and mutations. Too much sugar is also toxic.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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Invisiblecosmicaug
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: Ferather]
    #23841295 - 11/17/16 11:05 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

flyontoast said:
Quote:

cosmicaug said:
Quote:

flyontoast said:
I've been reading up on it and while it is advertised as "naturally found" in trees, as with most industrial sugars, it's most likely from GMO corn.



Why should it matter? Xylitol is xylitol.

Quote:

flyontoast said:
But if you could find one that specifically refined from trees, that intuitively seems like a good pick as an alternative agar nutrient.



Why should it matter that it came from trees? Xylitol is xylitol and it has no way of knowing that it came from a tree.




Cause I don't know enough about hydrogenation to know if the source material matters lol. Wikipeida says:
"Xylitol is produced by hydrogenation of xylose, which converts the sugar (an aldehyde) into a primary alcohol. Another method of producing xylitol is through microbial processes, including fermentative and biocatalytic processes in bacteria, fungi, and yeast cells, that take advantage of the xylose-intermediate fermentations to produce high yield of xylitol"




What is happening is that you are reducing* an aldehyde group to an alcohol group. If you look at xylose you will see a double bonded oxygen at the end of the molecule (at the end in the non circular conformation**):



You can see that this is replaced by an alcohol group (an oxygen with a single bond) in the xylitol model:



* To "reduce", as used by chemists, is referring to what happens to electrons in some kinds of chemical reaction).
** Simple sugars like this will often exist in an equilibrium of intercoverting forms so the representation as both a circular form and a linear form is not for convenience in representation*** and represents something that actually happens in solution (note that the double bond on that oxygen actually turns into two single bonds in order to change the structure into a circle).
*** By convenience in representation I mean things such as the fact that the carbons are not labeled and the hydrogens are not shown at all (other than the alcohol hydrogens). A chemist knows that they are there.

Quote:

flyontoast said:So I figured that 1) some "trace" properties or minerals may have been retained from the original source, and 2) since there's more than one way of getting xylitol, it simply reinforces my misconception from 1.




I would think such a chemical would be of such high purity that contaminants should be negligible.

In the end, you still have the same molecule in both cases. With bacterial fermentation of a sugar feedstock it just means that that you are starting with glucose, going through a xylose intermediate.

Reading at http://xylitol.org/about-xylitol/corn-xylitol-vs-birch-xylitol/ it would seem like there's also a process from corn that is more like what would be used for extracting from birch.

Either way, it would seem that either alternative from maize ought to be more sustainable and environmentally friendly, perhaps?

Quote:

flyontoast said:
Also, some people don't want to support industrialized, pesticide, GMO corn and if given a non-GMO, non-prayed alternative they would choose it.




You mean that there are objections to the reduced use of pesticides that is associated with the insect protection traits (as well as the reduced mycotoxin burden secondary to reduced insect damage)?

Quote:

flyontoast said:
And, more important than that: my organic certification requires that no GMO, synthetic fertilizer, or pesticides be brought onto the farm and/or used in the production process of any of the produce we sell (including manure/compost from GMO fed animals... which is as impossible to adhere to as it sounds. They demand receipts for everything).




Ah, if organic certification is the issue at play, then that makes a lot of sense. I'd double check to make sure that xylitol from any source is or is not allowed though. I would assume that it is but it is a wild assed guess on my part.

Quote:

flyontoast said:
Most of the agar recipes appear in the appendix of Radical Mycology... and I thought he had compiled that wacky list (the V8 and crushes shrimp being the ones that stand out most in my mind lol).




I know someone who swears by V8 agar but the one attempt at using it that I was involved with did not meet with spectacular success. It's possible other variables could have been involved in our failure. The one recipe that stands out at the Aloha Culture Bank list is their antibiotic media as it seems they just threw in random antibiotics with no rhyme or reason and they are using amounts that are off by at least three orders of magnitude. I suspect they might simply be using the wrong units (I did email what I thought should have been the correct e-mail address but it did not result in a correction). I think there may have been one or a few more that seemed really wrong but I don't remember what they were.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Xylitol for agar? [Re: cosmicaug]
    #23841578 - 11/17/16 12:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

My eyes fell out 1/2 way down  :tongue:


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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